The After-Afterlife

MyVisionity · Post by **MyVisionity** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:58 pm

DesireCampbell wrote:
MyVisionity wrote:
Xyex wrote:There's still no cause of him to be less evil. In fact, it is due to his being less evil that he died.
Piccolo's evil lessened before he trained Gohan and fought Raditz. He had been less evil ever since he was reborn. This is partly what Kami-sama meant when he said that Piccolo was unlike the Daimaou of old. Goku had already previously acknowledged that Piccolo was different from before.
That's probably true, but it still doesn't mean he was in fact a demon to begin with. Is there any instace where Piccolo (Diamo or otherwise) ever killed anybody and put their soul in limbo?

Well, I believe that was the question to begin with, whether or not Kuririn and Roshi were in limbo when they were killed. I thought they had explained it in the Piccolo saga, but I can't remember exactly. But yes, he was definitely a demon or at least called a demon in the beginning.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:03 pm

MyVisionity wrote:Well, I believe that was the question to begin with, whether or not Kuririn and Roshi were in limbo when they were killed. I thought they had explained it in the Piccolo saga, but I can't remember exactly. But yes, he was definitely a demon or at least called a demon in the beginning.

That's what I want to know. Just being called a demon isn't enough, he actually has to be a demon.

MyVisionity · Post by **MyVisionity** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:16 pm

DesireCampbell wrote:
MyVisionity wrote:Well, I believe that was the question to begin with, whether or not Kuririn and Roshi were in limbo when they were killed. I thought they had explained it in the Piccolo saga, but I can't remember exactly. But yes, he was definitely a demon or at least called a demon in the beginning.
That's what I want to know. Just being called a demon isn't enough, he actually has to be a demon.

Yes, he was considered to be a demon in those days. Or at least demonic enough to follow that particular rule.

The S · Post by **The S** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:11 pm

Perhaps, just perhaps, Piccolo is considered a demon simply because he's the darker half of God.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:59 am

MyVisionity wrote:
DesireCampbell wrote:
MyVisionity wrote:Well, I believe that was the question to begin with, whether or not Kuririn and Roshi were in limbo when they were killed. I thought they had explained it in the Piccolo saga, but I can't remember exactly. But yes, he was definitely a demon or at least called a demon in the beginning.
That's what I want to know. Just being called a demon isn't enough, he actually has to be a demon.
Yes, he was considered to be a demon in those days. Or at least demonic enough to follow that particular rule.

Are there any other references to demon-murdered souls going to limbo? Was it just something Kami said? Cause that guy never seemed to know what was going on.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:32 am

A Demon is a being created when the original being expels the evil from their hearts into a physical form.

Reason enough? Until the spawn discovers good, whether it be the reincarnation effect or otherwise, they are a demon.

I have no quotes or anything, but this definatly makes sense. To me...

And when did Kami-Sama not know what was going on? I would like to be enlightened to this because he actually had a very good grasp on things throughout the entirety of the story. The only time I found him dumbfounded was when he saw that Son Goku had become stronger than him.

Also, Kami-Sama can visit the after-life freely. Surely he can tell when someone goes there and doesn't.

Entropy · Post by **Entropy** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:54 am

If I remember correctly, it is implied that when you suffer a death when you're dead you end up "somewhere else".

Goku's line about Krillin and Yamcha says, "They won't exist in this plain anymore", which to me implies they'll exist somewhere else, beyond the conventional afterlife.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:45 am

And when did Kami-Sama not know what was going on? I would like to be enlightened to this because he actually had a very good grasp on things throughout the entirety of the story. The only time I found him dumbfounded was when he saw that Son Goku had become stronger than him.

During all of Dragonball and the first part of DBZ he didn't know that he was a Namek. It would have been easy enough for him to find out while in Otherworld. Just as easy as learning if someone who'd died actually was in limbo. Did he do either? Nope. He merely assumed he was a green Human with antenae and decided that since he was Kami Piccolo had to be a Demon and therefor those he killed were sent into limbo.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:32 pm

Xyex wrote:
And when did Kami-Sama not know what was going on? I would like to be enlightened to this because he actually had a very good grasp on things throughout the entirety of the story. The only time I found him dumbfounded was when he saw that Son Goku had become stronger than him.
During all of Dragonball and the first part of DBZ he didn't know that he was a Namek. It would have been easy enough for him to find out while in Otherworld. Just as easy as learning if someone who'd died actually was in limbo. Did he do either? Nope. He merely assumed he was a green Human with antenae and decided that since he was Kami Piccolo had to be a Demon and therefor those he killed were sent into limbo.

Exactly, I'm sure Kami means well but he really doesn't do his research.

And how is it that Kami can pass between the mortal universe and the afterlife so easily? I think I remember something about a 'gateway' or something above his lookout.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:41 pm

There were about 100 Namekians on Namek, and how often did one die?

Kami-Samas passage to the afterlife seemed limited to just Lord Enma's little checkout point. He could just go into heaven looking for Green Skinned people. If he could, he would have. Toriyama would have thought of it. He wouldn't make GOD stupid.

Kami-Sama wouldn't just draw an assumption about where people go either. He obviously KNEW it, otherwise he wouldn't even mention it. I mean, it's not like he dealt with Demons on a day to day basis.

All of these things were stated in the Manga and are absolute fact, which was not contradicted later. Denying them is like being a Christain and denying the Bible.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:50 pm

Duo wrote:Denying them is like being a Christain and denying the Bible.

You're a devout Catholic, aren't you?

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:53 pm

Dayspring wrote:
Duo wrote:Denying them is like being a Christain and denying the Bible.
You're a devout Catholic, aren't you?

Nah, Catholics don't know a dang thing about the Bible. He's a devout Christian.

gotenx · Post by **gotenx** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:36 pm

OFF TOPIC:

Christain, Catholic, what the hell is the difference anyway? They all believe in God and read the bible.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:52 pm

My point is that the Bible contradicts itself all the time, as did the DB manga. People are Christian and deny the Bible all the time too. Only Catholic (stereotyping, of course) elitists go around making claims that Bible-devotion equals true Christianity like he just did. I just found it funny as hell (excuse the pun) that he'd use such a vicious comparison for something as trivial as a manga.

Demi · Post by **Demi** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:53 pm

If you only get your body in the afterlife if you've led a good life and helped people like Goku, why do all the people in hell like Freezer and Cell have bodies?

Also, in GT, why does hell look a lot different then it does in Z? It's a lot more dark looking in GT.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:57 pm

Demi wrote:If you only get your body in the afterlife if you've led a good life and helped people like Goku, why do all the people in hell like Freezer and Cell have bodies?

Also, in GT, why does hell look a lot different then it does in Z? It's a lot more dark looking in GT.

Both were instances of filler, so there was no need to be consistent. Note that in the "HFIL" episode Hell is just an amusement park you're never allowed to leave and that its occupants had no bodies. (Not saying it was in the manga, just saying it was yet another example of inconsistency)

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:38 am

I'm not even gonna touch the Religious comments. I doubt it would go well.

Dayspring is right - and to elaborate, all showings of hell are non-canon. Never once in the Manga is hell, or heaven, portrayed in any way. It keeps the mystery and very much is a good thing.

They do show parts of the afterlife, obviously, but never those 2 in specific.

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:22 am

Xyex wrote:
Domon wrote:
For that matter, Goku, after being killed by Piccolo, would have also been in limbo.
Kami explained this by saying that the evil in Piccolo has lessen. Thus, Radtiz and Goku never experiened limbo state.
Except there's absolutly no reason it should have lessened up to this point. He should be just as evil as ever, if not more so. And that still doesn't explain those who died at the hands of Nappa and such if you follow Duo's line of thought.

It did lessen. Piccolo was still evil, but The crude violence of the Demon King was gone.

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The After-Afterlife

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