Kaboom wrote:Piccolo's perhaps a little more beat up, yeah, but at least unlike the humans or Goku he's still standing. If anything I would just take it to mean he's still weaker than Vegeta or Trunks, but not too far behind them or the Cell Juniors. One way or another, he is still holding his ground.
To go out-of-universe for a moment, too... Piccolo is one of Toriyama's favorite characters. I sincerely doubt he ever intended to portray him as a weakling.
Well Cell Juniors are a lot like Pure Boo and he held back so much that Base Vegeta was able to take multiple blows from him. Manga-wise we don't know how long the fight went on at all. So considering the whole Pure Boo/Base Vegeta nonsense it's very plausible that the same thing went on here IMO. For all we know Piccolo would've been down like the other weaklings if Gohan had gotten enraged 15 seconds later.
It's stuff like this that makes me really support the idea of a small SSjin multiplier. It's true that Toriyama never said anything about a smaller multiplier besides that he drew the story with a 10x boost in mind, but stuff like this just doesn't make much sense with a 50x boost. I've gotten it to work in my levels but I admit I've had to stretch things greatly.
Mr. Satan is also one of his favourite characters and he's pretty much easily the weakest important character in the Cell and Boo Arcs. Piccolo had no real strength-related role in the Boo Arc and he was pretty much just lumped into the group of weakling has-beens like Kuririn story-wise, unfortunately.
Kaboom wrote:This logic is a little bit too circular, don't you think?
I think Base Saiya-jins >>> Freeza because of Base Trunks' fight with #18 and Base Gohan and Vegeta being confident they can beat #18 and Piccolo. I was doubting the #18 thing and just going by your explanation that she wasn't trying at all but the Daizenshuu statement that Base Trunks was on par with #18 sealed the deal for me.
Don't forget Gohan came to the Tenkaichi Budoukai hoping to win and he was the one who came up with the idea to fight in base despite inviting Piccolo and #18 himself. Gohan just doesn't seem the kind of person to overestimate himself, especially to such a crazy degree IMO.
goldsaint13 wrote:That's it, this argument doesn't have a flaw... Although it should be noted that Kaioshin defined Gohan's SSJ2 as an amazing power and he implied that he's above him... Actually, it's possible that Gohan was a bit enraged against Majin Buu (he said: "I'm more enraged, but as much as 7 years ago!") and that power was surely stronger than that of Kaioshin if he believed Gohan could pull the Z-Sword...
Well Fighting Saiya-jins >>> Resting Saiya-jins IMO. I remember some guy on MFG talking about how SSjins are probably very difficult to sense while they're not fighting, and that does seem to be the case. #20 thought SSjin Goku and Vegeta were both nothing to #19 and then they kicked #19 all over the place one at a time. Maybe it's something like:
SSjin 2 Goku (Burst/Resting) >=< Dabura > SSjin 2 Gohan (Actual Power) > Kaioshin > SSjin 2 Gohan (Resting)
At least that's my personal explanation for it. Kaioshin had a right to fear Dabura, he was an absolute beast IMO. Not only was he SSjin 2 tier but he was also highly skilled in magic and thus extremely unpredictable. He can just pull a sword out of thin air mid-battle and slice his opponent in half before they realise what's happening.
goldsaint13 wrote:That's it... I think Kibitoshin is a monster... At least as strong as SSJ3 Goku if not more... Elder Kaioshin said he had no chance against Buu as he was at the moment, but he was Buutenks, stronger than even Ultimate Gohan... Being a fusion from a guy stronger than Goten and Trunks with a guy weaker than Goten and Trunks it could be at least someone as strong as Gotenks, although I don't know in what form...
Yeah Gotenks-Boo is a monster, nobody except Gohan-Boo and Vegetto is even close to his league, let alone above him. Could the fact that Kibitoshin didn't come to help out against Pure Boo be explained as the same kind of plot nonsense that prevented Gohan and Gotenks from coming to help? None of that makes any sense.
Potara >>> Metamorian too. Absolutely nothing implies Goten and Trunks are worlds beyond Goku and Vegeta. Yet the Metamorian fusion of the brats is below Ultimate Gohan in SSjin 3, while the Potara fusion of Goku and Vegeta beat Gohan-Boo senseless in just SSjin. Considering Kibitoshin is a Potara fusion and Kaioshin should be monstrously strong, I don't really think Kibitoshin not being sent in to fight Pure Boo can be explained as anything but plot stupidity to be honest.
goldsaint13 wrote:Yes, but there is a flaw in all this... Perfect Cell is surely something in the likes of 4000 Kili and SSJ Goku in Buu's saga is 3000 Kili, that means his base form with the 50x would be 60 Kili and he seems to be too close to Yakon to be that low...
Well Dabura saying 4,000 Kiri can't beat him is an Anime-only line. Manga-wise we don't really know where anybody stacks up. He could be at 100,000 Kiri for all we know. Anime-wise it definitely makes sense though, since Toei is definitely on board with a very tiny SSjin multiplier.
Anime-wise Base Goku was kicking Yakon all over the place, so it'd probably be something like:
Dabura - 4,500 Kiri
SSjin 2 Gohan - 3,900 Kiri
SSjin Goku - 3,000 Kiri
SSjin Gohan - 1,950 Kiri
Base Goku - 1,000 Kiri
Yakon - 800 Kiri
Base Gohan - 650 Kiri
goldsaint13 wrote:They have the clear traits of Full Power SSJs...
Like this:
*SNIP*
They are born like that and couldn't be sparring partners for Gohan and Vegeta if they wouldn't...
Makes sense. They're definitely Full Power SSjins.
goldsaint13 wrote:Uhm... Considering Trunks as actually stronger than both #18 and slightly than even Piccolo it should work... Consider how Trunks and Goten said that they would have been fine too if none among the Saiyans would have transformed...
Wow, I never actually thought about the fact that even the kids thought they'd be fine if they didn't transform. Damn, poor Piccolo really IS nothing. It makes sense though since Goten was shown in the manga giving Gohan a serious run for his money during sparring (mainly the very last page we see them sparring) and Gohan was worried that the two kids would overtake him. I just can't see Piccolo being above characters who compare to Gohan like that.
Makes me wish Toriyama showed us the kids fighting #18 or someone else in base without that costume. Trunks considered them at a disadvantage against #18 even after they went SSjin, so that definitely shows that the costume was a much bigger deal than is commonly thought. Being at a disadvantage against someone who can't one-shot you as is after you become 4 to 50 times stronger is crazy...
I can definitely see Base Goten and Trunks being >= Piccolo considering that. We've seen before that if somebody isn't very nimble then they can have trouble against MUCH weaker opponents. Nappa smacked Gohan's 2,800 Masenko away like a beach ball yet Kuririn dominated him in their short hand-to-hand combat bout purely because of how freaking big and slow he was. I'd imagine Trunks and his suit problem caused him even more problems than Nappa's size caused him too. At the very least Nappa was used to being slow and clumsy.
goldsaint13 wrote: 
I don't know if we can really dispose of those numbers saying that they are just symbols... The thing about Goku being only 1/4 of his SSJ in base form is in accordance with the other statements about base Gohan being stronger than Piccolo that is the strongest Z-Fighter after the SSJs up to that point...
That's it... Actually the x4 boost is the most probable because base Goku would be 750 Kili that is close but not as strong as Yakon's 800 Kili and it's what the manga implies when Gohan said that Goku could have defeated Yakon without transforming only with his help...
He was a FP SSjin though, so he could have very easily been suppressed when his Kiri were read. Kind of like how he was read at 5,000 against the Ginyus but in reality was at 60,000. Just saying. It can be argued both ways and I'm honestly on the fence about it at this point. The guidebooks only speak of a 50x boost but Toriyama's interview in the SEG itself says he drew it with a 10x boost in mind... so if Toriyama himself is contradicting that then there's nothing to say that Full Power Super Saiya-jin couldn't be 10x or even less.
goldsaint13 wrote:That's the meaning of Full Power... Turning the wild and consuming SSJ form in a base-like form... But it could also mean that the opposite happens too... The base form gains a power in the likes of the calm SSJ itself... So that base Goku and calm SSJ Goku are both 750 Kili while the powered up SSJ is 3000 Kili...
Yeah I recall it being stated in the manga that it made SSjin basically their base form. It's just hard to believe that SSjin is a 50x boost in the Boo Arc because there's no big deal made out of it. It's just a transformation that you can go in and out of without even feeling it.
It might as well just be a visual change and nothing else by the way it's made out to be. So in that respect a much smaller SSjin boost would definitely make sense. It was stated Full Power Super Saiya-jin has almost no strain to it and makes SSjin kind of like their base form which both work with that idea.
A theoretical Kaio-ken x50 would be worlds more strainful than a Kaio-ken x4.
goldsaint13 wrote:After the Fusion they were totally consumed, I don't count it... But I can have base kids pre-RoSaT as slightly stronger than Piccolo, but just by a ridiculous amount, like the 450 Kili for Piccolo and the 460 and 470 for Goten and Trunks... I would give something like 600 to base Gohan...
Out of curiousity, what would you say the Kiri values for #17, #16, and Second Form Cell would be?
goldsaint13 wrote: 
It's just too much like that and the 3000/less-than-800 fact makes the x4 idea just perfect... The 50x boost is impossible because that 3000 of SSJ Goku is already getting close to the levels of Perfect Cell...
Yeah, maybe the out-of-universe meaning is that, but we should try to figure the things out in-universe too... I find the x4 boost as perfect in many cases... Also with Gotenks that seems to be already quite strong in base form... Or Vegetto that would get too insane with a x50 boost...
Nothing was ever stated about a smaller boost but it's still very likely. Toriyama didn't really work with numbers after the Freeza Arc so he doesn't realise that number-wise, many of his implications come out absolutely crazy with the 50x boost he thinks works with the entirety of the series.
The boost for Vegetto doesn't really matter since his base form didn't do anything in the manga. But Anime-wise there's definitely a small boost at work. Base Vegetto held his own against Gohan-Boo, and then after he transformed he was almost killed by Gohan-Boo's Kamikaze Ghosts and was overpowered when Gohan-Boo's suppressed power started coming through out of rage. There's just no way there was a 50x boost at work there...
goldsaint13 wrote:That's it... Piccolo was the best among all the others but he was still beaten hardly by the Cell Jrs more like Ten and the other humans than Vegeta and Trunks... If Piccolo would have been already at 50% of Goku's power he should have fought Cell's children more or less the same as Vegeta and Trunks...
I agree. Piccolo really wasn't much by the late Cell Arc unfortunately. I mean Goku flat-out said he wouldn't be able to do anything against Cell and asked him if he could defuse to have God around again. That shows that Piccolo is so useless that Goku would rather him defuse than have his power around anymore.
The fact that with God gone there are no Dragon Balls is a great problem too, but the solution of finding another Namekseijin was the there the whole time. So it's not like there was no possible thing he could think of besides getting Piccolo to defuse...
Piccolo just was standing up against the Cell Juniors because his was playing around IMO. It's no different from Goku and Piccolo not being one-shotted by Raditz, or Gohan not being one-shotted by Nappa, or Base Vegeta (LOL) not being one-shotted by Pure Boo. Villains just hold back because they want a punching bag. Toriyama deliberately showed that Piccolo's Cell Junior was completely fresh at the end of the fight, with neither a scratch nor a drop of sweat.
goldsaint13 wrote:I'm more with:
Base Gohan >> Base Goten >= Piccolo >> #18
I think that the kids have trouble with #18 only because of the costume...
But don't you think Piccolo is at least on par with Second Form Cell? Can you picture him having trouble against #18 even in a clownsuit? I mean #18 to Second Form Cell is a ridiculously huge gap IMO. Imperfect Cell tanked Piccolo's Gekiretsu Kodan without a scratch, and was even with #16 couldn't budge Second Form Cell with a punch to the face.
Not saying it's impossible, numbers aren't everything after all. Kuririn made a total fool out of Nappa in hand-to-hand combat despite being more than 1.5x weaker so there's many ways this could work even with the kids being that strong. The costume could've just been an absurdly big problem, considering Trunks said they were still a disadvantage after they both turned SSjin. The costume is bad enough but the fact that they were both awkwardly trying to fight as one in it made things that much worse.
TheDevilsCorpse wrote:I never said Piccolo was EVEN with Trunks and Vegeta, I said the same realm of power. He's able to stand and able to fight, just because he's getting his ass kicked harder doesn't toss that out the window.
Vegeta is the only fighter besides Gohan shown to land a clean hit on any of the little devils, and other than that one set of panels where Vegeta hits 'em, none of the Cell Juniors have damage before Gohan curbstomps them. So you can't use Piccolo's Cell Junior looking new and shiny as any indicator, because then you could just say that Trunks wasn't keeping up either. Also of note, Toriyama changes the damage level of the Z Senshi every time they are shown. Trunks is initially bleeding from the mouth on the page right before the one you posted, but 4 panels later on the next page, the blood is gone. THEN, a couple of pages later, after Gohan destroys the Cell Juniors while everyone is looking on in shock, Piccolo looks healthier (and I highly doubt he regenerated while standing there in awe) and Vegeta is now bleeding from the mouth, despite not having done so since when the Cell Junior paid him back for hitting him and his opponent had already flown off to his death.
Your entire side of the debate is a strawman that falls down right away because Toriyama isn't consistent in the level of damage he displays in his drawings. The part that is consistent though, is Piccolo still standing with Trunks and Vegeta at the end of the fight while the others are on their asses, eating dirt.
Piccolo was never mentioned as being able to hold his own against them like Vegeta and Trunks were. We see Vegeta land a hit on and damage his Cell Junior while Piccolo's Cell Junior is shown to be completely fresh while he's bleeding and covered in bruises.
You're right that Toriyama is inconsistent, which is why I mainly just go by the chapter title page and the first page right after Gohan goes SSjin 2 myself. They both convey the exact same message and they're both clearly drawn to see how everybody compares right after their battles are abruptly ended. Piccolo was a punching bag for his Cell Junior going by visual evidence.
TheDevilsCorpse wrote:As for base Saiyans being above Freeza and above Piccolo, your opinion. I don't see the facts pointing that way. All the "proof" anyone has ever supplied for that can be twisted for either side of the debate, and all the Saiyan's jumping that obscenely high in seven years (inlcuding Gohan who didn't train) is a fairly absurd idea IMO.
I don't see why the Base Saiya-jins wouldn't get that high. The Cell Arc is full of gargantuan gaps that can easily lead to that. #18 tanking Vegeta's punch to the gut without any effect, Imperfect Cell tanking Piccolo's Gekiretsu Kodan without a scratch, Second Form Cell tanking #16's punch without budging, doing a massive power-up, and not even being able to budge SSjin Grade 2 Vegeta. That same Vegeta's kick to the head not even phasing Cell, who gets surpassed by SSjin Grade 3 Trunks, who gets blown out of the water by 50% FP SSjin Goku.
To each their own, but IMO the implications in the Boo Arc all point to Base Saiya-jins >>> Piccolo >>> 100% Freeza. I mean Gohan, Vegeta, and the kids are confident that they can defeat Piccolo and #18 in base, Base Trunks holds his own against #18 in a clownsuit, etc. Just my opinion though.
Absolutely...