Is GT really inconsistent?

[Nex Carnifex]

The kids at the dragon ball wiki claim it is plot hole free, though popular opinion seems to go against it. Go look at their inconsistencies page. I was wondering what was really true.

[Fox666]

Would you even listen to the Dragon Ball wikia? Even the original manga has minor plot-holes. It's impossible for GT to not have plot-holes at all.

Of course it is not just free of plot-holes, but has tons of them. Want an example? Let's check episode 1:
• Nobody is supposed to get to Kami-sama temple without permission, however Pilaf & co get there.
• Why the radar never picked these hidden Dragon Balls before, if supposedly they can do it even on space?
• How can these Dragon Balls they exist if the child of Kakatz is not "alive" anymore?
• Why nobody ever mentioned these new Dragon Balls before? Why they needed to travel to namek to search for the namekian Dragon Balls?
And so on... I didn't even include Pilaf being evil (so not being revived) since that's arguable not a plot-hole.

If you look at the whole series, there are erros so blatant that's hard to believe. Androids having Ki? Freeza copied the Kienzan from Kuririn? I can't even think of what is the worst plot-hole.

[Super Vegito]

^Freeza and Cell not being able to die, because they're already dead is a good one too. If you want to go by the manga, then none of the villians in hell are suppose to have bodies, thus the entire the Super 17 saga couldn't have existed.

[CatouttaHell]

Power-wise GT is entirely one big inconsistency.

GT Base Goku > Pure Boo who was the biggest threat the universe has likely ever faced (and Anime-wise was a universe buster and on par with Super Vegetto) and yet the whole series consistently makes him look weak.

He needs SSjin 4 to lift a building, has trouble with space worms and some random bodyguard, etc.

Also power-wise absolutely nothing in the Super #17 arc makes a lick of sense. It somehow doesn't even line up logically with the arcs surrounding it.

[Cipher]

People blow it out of proportion. It's not as tight as Toriyama writing on his own (if you can even call that tight), but it's not unwatchably ridiculous by any means.

• Nobody is supposed to get to Kami-sama temple without permission, however Pilaf & co get there.

Same way Bulma flies up there in the Cell arc? Dende and Popo are distracted by Goku and Oob's fight; Pilaf even comments on the fact that it's their one chance to sneak in. What's wrong with this? They explicitly address the fact that there's a distraction.

• Why the radar never picked these hidden Dragon Balls before, if supposedly they can do it even on space?

If Pilaf can block a Dragon Radar with a lead box, it's actually one or three steps less ridiculous to believe the magical depths of God's palace could do the same.

• How can these Dragon Balls they exist if the child of Kakatz is not "alive" anymore?

I couldn't point you to a specific scene right now, but if I recall correctly, the series is pretty explicit with the idea that the Ultimate Dragon Balls "reactivated" when God and Piccolo merged in the Cell arc. Makes sense, as it's basically the return of the original spirit before it split. So they were made by the original, unseparated "child of Katatz," turned to stone when he split into God and Piccolo, and then reactivated when they united again.

• Why nobody ever mentioned these new Dragon Balls before? Why they needed to travel to namek to search for the namekian Dragon Balls?

Because they didn't exist in the Namek arc. They would still have been deactivated. It's also possible they were forgotten even by God/Piccolo.

Androids having Ki?

There is kind of an error with this, but not the way you think. You're probably referring to the scene where Trunks says No. 17 has ki similar to No. 18. The androids were once humans and are still mostly organic. It's not unthinkable that they have ki. It's just a normal human amount of ki. Enough to sense at close distances and if you're familiar with the person, but not enough to say, search out among an entire planet or city.

The actual plot hole with this is Super Saiyan 4 Goku using teleportation to get near Super 17 during their fight, as he didn't seem to be able to just teleport to the androids back in the Cell arc. Then again, even this may not be a plot hole. We know Goku can teleport toward normal, human amounts of ki. He does so to get to Bulma and others several times. When 19 and 20 show up in Z, he obviously doesn't know what ki to search for until he meets them, and then he's knocked out by the heart virus. By the time they need to find 17 and 18 to stop Cell from becoming complete, Goku has never been near either of them, so finding their tiny ki to teleport to is out of the question. So this is really the first time Goku has even had the opportunity or necessity to teleport to an android. So, yeah, even this is excusable.

Freeza copied the Kienzan from Kuririn?

Never stated. Goku taunts Freeza for using Kuririn's technique, but it's just a taunt. It's kind of stupid and confusing, but it's clearly Freeza's purple colored disc and not Kuririn's. So it's just ... kind of awkward. But not really a plot hole.

If you want to go by the manga, then none of the villians in hell are suppose to have bodies, thus the entire the Super 17 saga couldn't have existed.

GT doesn't take place in the same universe as the manga though. It's clearly part of Toei's anime universe, as it reuses elements which only previously appeared in anime filler. (Tsufuru-jin, the sacred water, etc)

As for relative powers, not touching that with a ten-foot-pole. But I've always watched the series with the assumption that non significant power increases have been made from the end of Z, and I find it works much better that way. The "Goku is as strong as Kid Boo now" thing isn't ever really substantiated.

The Super 17 arc is indeed a bit of a mess, but a lot of it is just presented poorly; it doesn't make any direct power comparisons in the dialogues, so it's all just making judgements based on what you see.

What are the actual plot holes?

Off the top of my head, Vegeta knowing what Tsufuru-jin's ki feels like is kind of difficult to work around. Cell and Freeza being unable to die in Hell directly contradicts the rules we know from the Boo arc. And there's one scene where Kaiou is mysteriously back in his old house, which should have been blown up by Cell.

[dbgtFO]

• How can these Dragon Balls they exist if the child of Kakatz is not "alive" anymore?

I couldn't point you to a specific scene right now, but if I recall correctly, the series is pretty explicit with the idea that the Ultimate Dragon Balls "reactivated" when God and Piccolo merged in the Cell arc. Makes sense, as it's basically the return of the original spirit before it split. So they were made by the original, unseparated "child of Katatz," turned to stone when he split into God and Piccolo, and then reactivated when they united again.

I think there actually might be a plothole here, at least going by what we know from the previous series and Daizenshuu 4.
Only Dragon Clan Namekians can create and control Dragon Balls. When Piccolo(Warrior Type) fuses with God(Dragon Clan) he doesn't become a Dragon Clan member. Since Piccolo is used as the base of the fusion, he is still a warrior type post fusion, which is also why the other sets of balls become inert and they have to bring Dende in, because Piccolo(merged with God) simply can't create or reactivate Dragon Balls.

[Cipher]

So, GT gives one explanation, the Daizenshuu gives another?

I'll go with GT's since, you know, the Daizenshuu information was never actually stated in Z, and you kind of have to take the word of the series before guidebooks. Consider it a retcon, if anything.

For that matter, when Piccolo merges with God in Z, the other characters just kid of take it at face value that the Dragon Balls with disappear. They certainly don't know anything about the ins-and-outs of Namekian clans. So they must be assuming, as any reader/viewer would, that the Dragon Balls simply disappear because God "dies." He ceases to be a person on his own; loses his body. That Daizenshuu explanation is really weird and extraneous, considering the characters already make an assumption that the series never contradicts.

[Fox666]

What are the actual plot holes?

It's not because you can explain something that it is not a plot-hole.

In the original manga, Trunks warns about no.19 and 20, and later says he never saw them and he was mention no.17 and 18. I can explain this inconsistency by saying that Trunks come back to the past, eliminated no.19 and 20 and now his future is different with other androids. Bam! There is no plot-hole at all!

You can virtually explain anything.

• Nobody is supposed to get to Kami-sama temple without permission, however Pilaf & co get there.

Same way Bulma flies up there in the Cell arc? Dende and Popo are distracted by Goku and Oob's fight; Pilaf even comments on the fact that it's their one chance to sneak in. What's wrong with this? They explicitly address the fact that there's a distraction.

Bulma was given permission to go there. However, it's unlikely that Pilaf would be able to go there.

The "distraction" only means they have gone there unoticed (like entering in a castle without the guards seeing you). That's different of giving an explanation of why they can enter Kami-sama dimension.

• Why the radar never picked these hidden Dragon Balls before, if supposedly they can do it even on space?

If Pilaf can block a Dragon Radar with a lead box, it's actually one or three steps less ridiculous to believe the magical depths of God's palace could do the same.

In the manga they had the radar even while they were in the temple of Kami-sama, that would have picked anything in that dimension.

• How can these Dragon Balls they exist if the child of Kakatz is not "alive" anymore?

I couldn't point you to a specific scene right now, but if I recall correctly, the series is pretty explicit with the idea that the Ultimate Dragon Balls "reactivated" when God and Piccolo merged in the Cell arc. Makes sense, as it's basically the return of the original spirit before it split. So they were made by the original, unseparated "child of Katatz," turned to stone when he split into God and Piccolo, and then reactivated when they united again.

I don't remember such a thing being mentioned, but I could be wrong.

• Why nobody ever mentioned these new Dragon Balls before? Why they needed to travel to namek to search for the namekian Dragon Balls?

Because they didn't exist in the Namek arc. They would still have been deactivated. It's also possible they were forgotten even by God/Piccolo.

Namek is only an example. There is moments in the Cell of Majin Boo saga which they needed the Dragon Balls.

Androids having Ki?

There is kind of an error with this, but not the way you think. You're probably referring to the scene where Trunks says No. 17 has ki similar to No. 18. The androids were once humans and are still mostly organic. It's not unthinkable that they have ki. It's just a normal human amount of ki. Enough to sense at close distances and if you're familiar with the person, but not enough to say, search out among an entire planet or city.

Since Goku could track Bulma Ki, shouldn't they still be able to track no.17 and 18 in the Cell saga if they had the Ki of a normal human?

Besides, they contantly referred to the androids as not having Ki and etc. Wouldn't they have mentioned they only had the Ki of an average human instead of saying they don't have Ki at all? Or better than that, wouldn't they have noticed no.17 and 18 are different from the other complete lifeless machines?

The actual plot hole with this is Super Saiyan 4 Goku using teleportation to get near Super 17 during their fight, as he didn't seem to be able to just teleport to the androids back in the Cell arc. Then again, even this may not be a plot hole. We know Goku can teleport toward normal, human amounts of ki. He does so to get to Bulma and others several times. When 19 and 20 show up in Z, he obviously doesn't know what ki to search for until he meets them, and then he's knocked out by the heart virus. By the time they need to find 17 and 18 to stop Cell from becoming complete, Goku has never been near either of them, so finding their tiny ki to teleport to is out of the question. So this is really the first time Goku has even had the opportunity or necessity to teleport to an android. So, yeah, even this is excusable.

Then Cell would have absorbed no.17 and 18 before he noticed Piccolo was fighting one of them...

[dbgtFO]

So, GT gives one explanation, the Daizenshuu gives another?

I'll go with GT's since, you know, the Daizenshuu information was never actually stated in Z, and you kind of have to take the word of the series before guidebooks. Consider it a retcon, if anything.

Sure whatever. It wouldn't surprise me if they said something more on the subject in one of the Perfect Files.

That Daizenshuu explanation is really weird and extraneous,[...]

What, that only Dragon Clan Namekians can create Dragon Balls and stuff? It seems to be in line with what we do know from the series: Piccolo is a warrior type Namekian(stated after Dende healed him), Piccolo before and after merging with God seemingly can't create Dragon Balls(or at least he doesn't consider the possibility), which is where Dende comes in. Dende is a gifted Dragon Clan member and he can create Dragon Balls or reactivate old ones.

Besides, they contantly referred to the androids as not having Ki and etc. Wouldn't they have mentioned they only had the Ki of an average human instead of saying they don't have Ki at all? Or better than that, wouldn't they have noticed no.17 and 18 are different from the other complete lifeless machines?

Yeah:
Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P10.1
Vegeta: “One of those guys with mysterious, absurdly large battle powers has vanished…But the other one remains…It’s not No.17 or the other androids. They don’t give off any presence at all…W-who the hell is it…!?”

[Savage68]

It's not because you can explain something that it is not a plot-hole.

Yes it is. That's what distinguishes a simple inconsistency from a full-fledged plot hole; if it has any plausible explanation at all, it's not a hole in the plot. It could maybe be chalked up to sloppy writing or lack of exposition or whatever.

[Nex Carnifex]

So, GT gives one explanation, the Daizenshuu gives another?

I'll go with GT's since, you know, the Daizenshuu information was never actually stated in Z, and you kind of have to take the word of the series before guidebooks. Consider it a retcon, if anything.

Sure whatever. It wouldn't surprise me if they said something more on the subject in one of the Perfect Files.

That Daizenshuu explanation is really weird and extraneous,[...]

What, that only Dragon Clan Namekians can create Dragon Balls and stuff? It seems to be in line with what we do know from the series: Piccolo is a warrior type Namekian(stated after Dende healed him), Piccolo before and after merging with God seemingly can't create Dragon Balls(or at least he doesn't consider the possibility), which is where Dende comes in. Dende is a gifted Dragon Clan member and he can create Dragon Balls or reactivate old ones.

Besides, they contantly referred to the androids as not having Ki and etc. Wouldn't they have mentioned they only had the Ki of an average human instead of saying they don't have Ki at all? Or better than that, wouldn't they have noticed no.17 and 18 are different from the other complete lifeless machines?

Yeah:
Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P10.1
Vegeta: “One of those guys with mysterious, absurdly large battle powers has vanished…But the other one remains…It’s not No.17 or the other androids. They don’t give off any presence at all…W-who the hell is it…!?”

What translation is that from? Is it the Viz one?

[Fox666]

That's from Herms' translations.

It's not because you can explain something that it is not a plot-hole.

Yes it is. That's what distinguishes a simple inconsistency from a full-fledged plot hole; if it has any plausible explanation at all, it's not a hole in the plot. It could maybe be chalked up to sloppy writing or lack of exposition or whatever.

If that was the case plot-holes won't exist. Because you can explain anything. Especially if you rely on fanfiction to explain.

And I can be very lazy and just say "a wizard did it" whenever I see a plot-hole... does that makes it not a plot-hole?

[Herms]

I think there actually might be a plothole here, at least going by what we know from the previous series and Daizenshuu 4.
Only Dragon Clan Namekians can create and control Dragon Balls.

Well, all Daizenshuu 4 says is that Dragon Clan Namekians are the only ones who can create dragonballs (which is said in the manga anyway). It doesn't say anything about what happens to the dragonballs a Dragon Clan member creates if they later become a different type of Namekian via splitting up, merging, and whatnot.

I couldn't point you to a specific scene right now, but if I recall correctly, the series is pretty explicit with the idea that the Ultimate Dragon Balls "reactivated" when God and Piccolo merged in the Cell arc.

That's pretty much what Pilaf explains to Shu and Mai in the first episode.

[Savage68]

If that was the case plot-holes won't exist. Because you can explain anything.

Not with a plausible explanation you can't, which was the point I was trying to get across.

[Travis Touchdown]

Bulma was given permission to go there. However, it's unlikely that Pilaf would be able to go there.

Super Buu wasn't given permission though. He just flew up there.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Super Buu wasn't given permission though. He just flew up there.

They couldn't have prevented that even if they wanted to...None of their attacks would have phased him, and I honestly can't see Dende or Popo walking over and trying to explain that he isn't welcome there (well, maybe Abridged Popo could).

[Nex Carnifex]

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P10.1
Vegeta: “One of those guys with mysterious, absurdly large battle powers has vanished…But the other one remains…It’s not No.17 or the other androids. They don’t give off any presence at all…W-who the hell is it…!?”

What translation is this?

[Herms]

The actual plot hole with this is Super Saiyan 4 Goku using teleportation to get near Super 17 during their fight, as he didn't seem to be able to just teleport to the androids back in the Cell arc.

Super 17's supposed to be part Machine Mutant too, and the Machine Mutant Rilld had sensible ki (as we see in that infamous line where Goku compares his ki to Boo's). So maybe Super 17 had sensible ki, even though regular 17 didn't.

[Savage68]

Goku commented on the Sigma Force's "amazing" ki very early on in the series, too. It's not really hard for me to believe that just maybe the GT cast's ki-sensing abilities simply improved since Z.

[Nex Carnifex]

I just don't know why Goku is so weak and dumb all of a sudden, he was getting beaten up by space worms and some other stupid things. Everything seems forced, its like everyone they encounter, no matter how random, just HAPPENS to be a good match for them even though they keep getting stronger. It makes me wonder, if GT, or any of Dragon Ball for that matter, happened a little out of order, the characters would get pwned early on. This is just amplified in GT though, it's like now there just happens to be a super scientist that just shows up out of nowhere that could have raped them iwith his robots f he came during Z.