Dragonball Vs. Non Dragonball

[dario03]

Also outside of the films the Jedi and Sith have some other crazy powers you never see. I remember reading about one that drained all of the life force from a whole planet. So even though I'm pretty sure no Jedi has the speed or strength of a DBZ character they could possibly win through some special type of move like force drain or maybe launch them into space with a force wormhole or against weaker minded opponents use mind trick then slice them in half with a lightsaber.

[Pantalones]

Yeah, I figured from the "pulling down a Star Destroyer" thing that this guy was firmly in the "Expanded Universe Star Wars stuff is pretty ridiculous" category, way more powerful than anyone in the movies. It's one reason I haven't really ever gotten into it; such a huge departure from the way the Star Wars universe was shown to work in the original material.

But yeah, crushing a machine and choking Gohan (especially in Cell/Buu saga) are definitely on two very different levels of power. Someone like Nappa could probably tear through Tie Fighters and walkers pretty effortlessly (Star Destroyers too, though the whole "no air in space" thing would be an issue then), and he's not even a hundredth (probably not even a thousandth!) of the kind of power Gohan would have by then.
Not nearly as big of a gap as "choking ordinary powerless human" vs. "choking Gohan," but still, there's no reason to automatically think that he'd be able to affect Gohan just because he could affect large inanimate objects.

Mind tricks could be a possibility against weaker-willed opponents, yeah. I'm not sure if Gohan would necessarily count, but if a Jedi ever found themselves fighting a Saibaiman or Spopovich or someone like that who definitely would be vulnerable to that kind of thing, that would definitely be a good way to deal with the situation.
The problem then is being able to actually harm them at all afterward... would a lightsaber even scratch anyone in upper-level DBZ? They've been shown to take a little while to cut through blast doors which definitely couldn't handle even the lowest-level planet-destroying blasts (which upper-level DBZ guys can get smacked by without much more than a scratch.)

Maybe a Jedi could manipulate someone into lowering their guard enough that some other method of attack would actually work? I know Vegeta lowered his own guard so that Krillin could hurt him back in the Freeza saga, so it should be possible to trick someone into doing that if you can affect their mind in the first place. Of course, the Jedi would need to know ahead of time how the DBZ characters' ki powers work for them to ever think of that as a possibility, because fighting someone on DBZ levels for long enough to just "figure it out" from observation isn't really an option.

As for a life-draining ability that can wipe out a whole planet of ordinary-human-level people... again, there's no guarantee that something like that would automatically work just as well against super-powerful characters. There's even an example of how it might work in DBZ--#20 thought he'd sucked out all of Piccolo's energy, but actually he had barely scratched the surface since he could only reach the suppressed level of energy Piccolo was currently putting off, not his true power.
Aside from #20-vs.-Piccolo, I'm also reminded of Yammy's Gonzui in Bleach--it sucked the souls out of hundreds of normal people with no trouble but only weakened Tatsuki (who, if you're not familiar with Bleach, is just a normal girl who knows karate and has awareness of ghosts but no other powers) and had no effect on anyone actually strong enough to fight.
A life-draining technique might even backfire horribly when used against someone on DBZ levels of power (think Yakon, except you'd be basically draining pure ki from someone instead of just the light from their transformation.)

[dario03]

All of that is why its hard to give a definite answer for Jedi and DBZ characters. However I do think the lightsaber could work. DBZ isn't always consistent with character durability but there has been a couple times where extreme heat seamed like a viable way of taking really strong characters out. IIRC Freeza thought that Goku falling into lava would have killed him and Gohan thought that Broly would also be killed by lava. Broly survived by putting up a shield but if he was being mind tricked then he wouldn't do that.

I'm not sure if there is a official explaination for why light sabers cut but I know a popular theory is that they have a lot of heat concentrated in them. Star Wars Tech from the History Channel was estimating light sabers to be around 200,000,000 degrees (I assume they mean Fahrenheit). And thats around 100,000 times hotter than lava and around 7 times hotter than the center of the Sun.

[Bussani]

We had discussions about lightsabers earlier on in this very thread, if I remember right. I also remember being involved in a back and forth disagreement on the subject, though, and I don't really want to get back into that... But I will say that I always thought lightsabers cutting via heat was the most basically understood thing about them--and that was before scenes like this existed.

[Rocketman]

The problem then is being able to actually harm them at all afterward... would a lightsaber even scratch anyone in upper-level DBZ? They've been shown to take a little while to cut through blast doors which definitely couldn't handle even the lowest-level planet-destroying blasts (which upper-level DBZ guys can get smacked by without much more than a scratch.)

Trunks swings his sword at Freeza. Freeza is cut in half and dies.

Trunks swings his sword at the Earth. The Earth is unaffected.

[SuppaSaiyanNerd]

I think lightsaber coluld probably cut Gohan in half. But, y'know, the real question here is that how could Starkiller (or any other Jedi or Sith) keep up with his speed. The Force can be used increase your own speed, it's simply called "Force Speed". Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon used it to run away from Droidekas in Ep. 1, and they were instantly in the other side of the hall. Also, the Jedi and Sith are above normal human level of durability. Think of the final battle of Revenge of the Sith. Anakin falls into the friggin' lava and is horribly burnt, with his hand and legs cut off. A normal human couldn't even handle the heat of lava while standing next to it.

[Hitiro]

The problem then is being able to actually harm them at all afterward... would a lightsaber even scratch anyone in upper-level DBZ? They've been shown to take a little while to cut through blast doors which definitely couldn't handle even the lowest-level planet-destroying blasts (which upper-level DBZ guys can get smacked by without much more than a scratch.)

Trunks swings his sword at Freeza. Freeza is cut in half and dies.

Trunks swings his sword at the Earth. The Earth is unaffected.

Well Trunks sword was either made of a metal that is extremely durable and he swung it with enough cutting force to slice through Frieza like butter or he imbued his sword with a thin layer of ki to make it possible. Goku had no problems blocking it with one finger when he concentrated his energy there so either one of those two possibilities made the sword able to cut through Frieza. To be honest I'm torn between the two ideas but I would think the first one is more likely as ki being manipulated around a sword or object is something we would have probably seen more often then those couple of panels.

I think lightsaber coluld probably cut Gohan in half. But, y'know, the real question here is that how could Starkiller (or any other Jedi or Sith) keep up with his speed. The Force can be used increase your own speed, it's simply called "Force Speed". Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon used it to run away from Droidekas in Ep. 1, and they were instantly in the other side of the hall. Also, the Jedi and Sith are above normal human level of durability. Think of the final battle of Revenge of the Sith. Anakin falls into the friggin' lava and is horribly burnt, with his hand and legs cut off. A normal human couldn't even handle the heat of lava while standing next to it.

But Jedi's and Sith can't survive having heavy objects falling on them. We see Yoda save Anakin and Obi wan from being crushed by a pillar that Darth Tyranus (Count Dooku) dropped on them in order to distract Yoda, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have survived that otherwise Yoda would not need to save them. And Anakin actually didn't go into the lava, the remainder of one of his legs touched it and that set his clothes on fire and severely burnt him.

[caejones]

I think I've said this before, but I once wrote a terrible DBZ / Starwars crossover in which I assumed that lightsabers could cut DBZ-tier characters, but only if they weren't actively guarding it (Goku could block one if he wanted to, but it would hurt him if he wasn't paying attention).

I will point out, however, that most of what happened in this crossover fic was based entirely on what figures (damaged and otherwise) I had available to potentially film it with. So at one point Goku gets cut in half just because I had access to a broken-in-half Goku figure. (Buu's nearby. He gets better.). Even with my already ridiculously stretched standards of comparison, the idea of Goku getting cut in half (it was by Darth Maul) still felt like a stretch even then.
Also, Cell took on the Jedi Temple, after being somewhat mind-tricked by Sidious. The jedi couldn't really do anything but keep him at bay long enough for Trunks to show up and deal with him. I did let the Jedi get in a few hits, just because the Cell figure's wings and tail could be detached. . Realistically, Cell would be too fast to get hit as many times as he did in that fustercluck.

[SuppaSaiyanNerd]

But Jedi's and Sith can't survive having heavy objects falling on them. We see Yoda save Anakin and Obi wan from being crushed by a pillar that Darth Tyranus (Count Dooku) dropped on them in order to distract Yoda, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have survived that otherwise Yoda would not need to save them. And Anakin actually didn't go into the lava, the remainder of one of his legs touched it and that set his clothes on fire and severely burnt him.

Count Dooku dropped that huge metallic thing on Obi-Wan (the duel in the beginning of Revenge of the Sith) and it even dragged him in the ground very painfully, but he only passed out for a moment (Dooku also Force Choked him). If the Jedi couldn't take very heavy hits, his whole lower body would've been chrushed to dust.

[Fox666]

You know, the protagonists of movies always survive injuries which you would expect them not to.

[SuppaSaiyanNerd]

You know, the protagonists of movies always survive injuries which you would expect them not to.

I know that very well, but THAT is a bit too extreme. We saw him get crushed. It would be TOO illogical.

[hleV]

You know, the protagonists of movies always survive injuries which you would expect them not to.

I know that very well, but THAT is a bit too extreme. We saw him get crushed. It would be TOO illogical.

Not more illogical than Palpatine stabbing two Jedi next to Windu.

[SuppaSaiyanNerd]

You know, the protagonists of movies always survive injuries which you would expect them not to.

I know that very well, but THAT is a bit too extreme. We saw him get crushed. It would be TOO illogical.

Not more illogical than Palpatine stabbing two Jedi next to Windu.

They were distracted by a mysterious fart, and tried to act natural. Couldn't focus on the battle.

[Hitiro]

Count Dooku dropped that huge metallic thing on Obi-Wan (the duel in the beginning of Revenge of the Sith) and it even dragged him in the ground very painfully, but he only passed out for a moment (Dooku also Force Choked him). If the Jedi couldn't take very heavy hits, his whole lower body would've been chrushed to dust.

It was actually a balcony and we don't know how much it weighed. If you want to argue that they can survive with heavy objects on them then there wouldn't have been a reason for Yoda to save Anakin and Obi-wan. I'm reasonably sure the balcony, while it was pushed on to him, was put there to pin him down while Dooku thought against Anakin. Also Dooku and Anikan had no trouble moving the balcony so it couldn't have weighed that much. And lets not forget to mention this battle took place on a spaceship, I'm sure they would be trying to outfit rooms with relatively light materials to reduce the force and fuel needed to leave orbit when it is on one.

The only real damage a Jedi could do against any of the Z warriors is if they caught them with their lightsaber. Unfortunately, they move faster than the eye can see and can fire attacks which probably wouldn't be reflective with a lightsaber. Not to mention the Z warriors can destroy massive metal contraptions with a tap from their fist, even if Jedi's had some level of durability above normal humans it wouldn't amount to negating the damage we've seen Goku and the gang pull off.

I don't know if this one has been discussed but what about the Flash (Wally West) vs. Goku or any of the other Z-Fighters.

[Fox666]

It seems that Wally West is only capable of moving as fast as the speed of sound. That should be enough for Kame-sennin to handle easily.

As of "Z-Fighters", we have seen they crossing the Earth multiple times.

[Hellspawn28]

I haven't read any DC comics in the past couple years but I remember during his fight with Zoom had him and Zoom running across the planet. Also won't the Flash able to speed steel Goku and the rest of the Zetto Senshi so that they can't move?

[Hitiro]

I haven't read any DC comics in the past couple years but I remember during his fight with Zoom had him and Zoom running across the planet. Also won't the Flash able to speed steel Goku and the rest of the Zetto Senshi so that they can't move?

Pretty much, I don't know the limit to how much speed he can take from an opponent. Also he has an ability called the infinite mass punch, because approaching the speed of light increases mass he can throw out punches with the power of a white dwarf star. Tapping into the speed force allows him to regulate the effects of such a punch so he will receive no damage from throwing it.

[Bussani]

It seems that Wally West is only capable of moving as fast as the speed of sound.

That was only right after Crisis on Infinite Earths, where DC powered down a lot of their heroes. It later turned out that he was only that fast because he was subconsciously holding himself back, and soon enough he was even faster than the Flash before him had been. I don't think any Dragon Ball character can keep up with a Flash that's realized its full potential, and the fact that they can deliver these crazy infinity-plus-one-mass punches means they should be able do some enormous. Honestly, speed-force powered people are possibly the most overpowered DC has to offer.

I don't know the limit to how much speed he can take from an opponent.

He once slowed someone down to the point that it would take them a hundred (or hundreds--I forget) years just to blink.

[Hitiro]

He once slowed someone down to the point that it would take them a hundred (or hundreds--I forget) years just to blink.

What I meant is I don't know the extent to which he can slow down a character from their original speed. It's all well and good if he can slow someone who moves at the speed of sound to make them take hundreds of years to blink but what about much faster characters?

[dario03]

He once slowed someone down to the point that it would take them a hundred (or hundreds--I forget) years just to blink.

What I meant is I don't know the extent to which he can slow down a character from their original speed. It's all well and good if he can slow someone who moves at the speed of sound to make them take hundreds of years to blink but what about much faster characters?

Don't know how much of a affect intial speed of the opponent matters. But if he has been shown to slow down a normal person so much that it takes 100 years to blink and we assume he can slow everybody down at the same ratio then he could slow down a light speed guy to a crawl. The lightspeed guy would be moving under 0.1 miles a hour.