Daizenshuu 7 on Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It's stated that Boo's power was increasing when Good boo was torn out, this power is never stated to go down

No, the power clearly went down. Goku & Vegeta were scared when Evil Boo changed into S. Kaioshin Boo, but were confident that they could beat him when he changed to Pure Boo. Even though they later said that they underestimated him, Goku waqs still confident that he could beat him in full power. The problem was that he couldn't go in full power.

"we will gather ki from them right to their limits"

Except that Genki Dama doesn't gather ki but genki.

That is because Goku > Gohan as stated by Vegeta when he said that only Goku is capable of fighting him and that he was #1. Before you tell me "#1 doesn't mean strongest" think again. Piccolo clearly states that Gohan was #1 in the Cell games and the Kaio asked if Son Goku's power is the "#1 or #2" power in his quadrant. Also Kaioshin says that Dabura was #1 in his realm while one of them in their realm is #1.

Vegeta was talking most likely talking about the two of them, since the real #1 would be Vegetto or Gohan Boo or Gotenks Boo or Evil Boo or Pure Boo or...
Vegeta was always claiming that he was #1, and not Goku. Now he admits that Goku is #1, not him.

In conclusion, here is a backup quote from the Daizenshuu : Goku always seeks out the strongest, and waited for Boo's reincarnation above all else". Why wait for him if Gohan or Gotenks were far stronger?

Because Goku is a pure Saiyan that loves fighting and seeks out the strongerst for that reason, Gohan, Goten & Trunks were skipping their training, as shown in the end of the manga.

[Fox666]

When are people going to admit that this is a children's series and realize that they over think things.

And since it took that entire post to make your point, then you have proven yourself wrong?

It's stated that Boo's power was increasing when Good boo was torn out, this power is never stated to go down

It was said to increase before South Kaioshin was removed.

(why would it? There was nobody inside Boo anymore to give him power)

There was South Kaioshin.

and Kaioshin's story explains why it increased by saying the heart he gained that "lowered his power" has "changed back" to what it once was.

He was refering to Dai Kaioshin alone.

Goku states that Gohan's power in the Super genki dama isn't enough and Vegeta said "we will gather ki from them right to their limits" as also shown with Kaioshin : I can't teleport to heal Goku, I am drained of my energy".

When Vegeta was revived he couldn't transform in Super Saiyan and Goku said he was still tired out.

The only thing powerful enough to truly stop him was the super genki dama or Vegetto. Goku never said that Gohan can beat Pure boo, he asks Vegeta if he wants them to come help in the fight which is very different then saying "bring either Gohan/or Gotenks, their power alone is more than enough to stop this Boo". He thinks both should help yet thinks Gohan alone can handle Evil boo?

You are just over-analyzing it. Besides Goku just said they would be bring back to life "so they can fight" which is kind of vague.

After Boo is defeated we have Goku and Vegeta hesitating when they wonder who would stop that Boo if he were to return. Gohan and Gotenks are clearly not on their mind, Goku admits he has to train.

Majin Boo drastically increased his power by just "eating himself". That's why Vegeta was worried about leaving Boo alive.

That is because Goku > Gohan as stated by Vegeta when he said that only Goku is capable of fighting him and that he was #1.

Gohan was dead.

Before you tell me "#1 doesn't mean strongest" think again. Piccolo clearly states that Gohan was #1 in the Cell games and the Kaio asked if Son Goku's power is the "#1 or #2" power in his quadrant. Also Kaioshin says that Dabura was #1 in his realm while one of them in their realm is #1.

Going by your logic then Goku is stronger than Vegetto, since Goku is #1 right?

What about the moment Gohan-absorbed Boo was to attack Goku as a Super Saiyan 3?



What a great #1.

In conclusion, here is a backup quote from the Daizenshuu : Goku always seeks out the strongest, and waited for Boo's reincarnation above all else". Why wait for him if Gohan or Gotenks were far stronger? You honestly think a child could think of conspiracy theories. That quote clearly tells us why Gohan and Gotenks were not on their mind.

In your post you constantly try to explain why the manga says something when it said something else. So I think you are the one with conspiracy theories.

All this evidence and yet there is not one statement that Evil boo > Pure boo. Also Goku > Evil boo since Boo said : you guys are even tinier than a flea, you can't beat me now".

That was said only in chapter 507, while in chapter 506 Goku was already asking Vegeta to wear the Potara and that they are "still simply no match for his strength".

[Rostir]

How can anyone ever debate Gotenks power? He jokes around everytime he gets screentime and we never got a clear gauge on how powerful he was.

[SaiyanZ]

It was said to increase before South Kaioshin was removed.

Here's the problem with that though: where did South Kai go once Boo (South Kai only absorbed) reverted to Kid Buu? It had to be in Good Buu.

You are just over-analyzing it. Besides Goku just said they would be bring back to life "so they can fight" which is kind of vague.

I don't know man, the fact that Goku took faith in a technique that hadn't worked yet over Gohan AND Gotenks just gives all the more reason to believe that Kid Buu is just that strong.

Going by your logic then Goku is stronger than Vegetto, since Goku is #1 right?

What about the moment Gohan-absorbed Boo was to attack Goku as a Super Saiyan 3?



What a great #1./quote]

That is not fair. Vegito hadn't even appeared yet or even been hinted at according to that page.

[Fox666]

Here's the problem with that though: where did South Kai go once Boo (South Kai only absorbed) reverted to Kid Buu? It had to be in Good Buu.

That's not important.

I don't know man, the fact that Goku took faith in a technique that hadn't worked yet over Gohan AND Gotenks just gives all the more reason to believe that Kid Buu is just that strong.

Their plan was to make it so that the humans would do the job.

That is not fair. Vegito hadn't even appeared yet or even been hinted at according to that page.

Huh? We are speaking of Vegeta speech, during Goku fight with Pure Boo.

[Darkprince410]

It was said to increase before South Kaioshin was removed.

Here's the problem with that though: where did South Kai go once Boo (South Kai only absorbed) reverted to Kid Buu? It had to be in Good Buu.

You are just over-analyzing it. Besides Goku just said they would be bring back to life "so they can fight" which is kind of vague.

I don't know man, the fact that Goku took faith in a technique that hadn't worked yet over Gohan AND Gotenks just gives all the more reason to believe that Kid Buu is just that strong.

Going by your logic then Goku is stronger than Vegetto, since Goku is #1 right?

What about the moment Gohan-absorbed Boo was to attack Goku as a Super Saiyan 3?



What a great #1./quote]

That is not fair. Vegito hadn't even appeared yet or even been hinted at according to that page.

1) We've seen many times when Buu has reverted after something changes in who he's absorbed that it takes some time for his body to adjust. Why we still saw aspects of South Kaioushin in him after Mr. Buu was removed was because of that.

2) He didn't have faith in the technique, and even told Vegeta that he didn't have faith in it (instead saying that they should bring Gohan and Gotenks up). Vegeta convinced him otherwise solely on the fact that he felt that the human race should handle their own problems for a change and contribute to their survival, rather than always being saved by people that they know nothing about.

3) You have to remember, not only was Gohan and Gotenks dead when Vegeta called Goku #1, he did it without there being any indication of them being resurrected. Likewise, if you take the whole context of what he's saying under consideration, he's not saying that Goku is the #1 strongest, but that he's the best fighter because his will and desire to fight are second to none.

[SaiyanZ]

It was said to increase before South Kaioshin was removed.

Here's the problem with that though: where did South Kai go once Boo (South Kai only absorbed) reverted to Kid Buu? It had to be in Good Buu.

You are just over-analyzing it. Besides Goku just said they would be bring back to life "so they can fight" which is kind of vague.

I don't know man, the fact that Goku took faith in a technique that hadn't worked yet over Gohan AND Gotenks just gives all the more reason to believe that Kid Buu is just that strong.

Going by your logic then Goku is stronger than Vegetto, since Goku is #1 right?

What about the moment Gohan-absorbed Boo was to attack Goku as a Super Saiyan 3?



What a great #1./quote]

That is not fair. Vegito hadn't even appeared yet or even been hinted at according to that page.

1) We've seen many times when Buu has reverted after something changes in who he's absorbed that it takes some time for his body to adjust. Why we still saw aspects of South Kaioushin in him after Mr. Buu was removed was because of that.

2) He didn't have faith in the technique, and even told Vegeta that he didn't have faith in it (instead saying that they should bring Gohan and Gotenks up). Vegeta convinced him otherwise solely on the fact that he felt that the human race should handle their own problems for a change and contribute to their survival, rather than always being saved by people that they know nothing about.

3) You have to remember, not only was Gohan and Gotenks dead when Vegeta called Goku #1, he did it without there being any indication of them being resurrected. Likewise, if you take the whole context of what he's saying under consideration, he's not saying that Goku is the #1 strongest, but that he's the best fighter because his will and desire to fight are second to none.

1) It is also important to note that all the absorptions that were reverted, the absorbees were seen inside Buu's body when Goku and Vegeta were there

2) Or, he knew that Gohan and Gotenks weren't enough to kill Kid Buu. There is absolutely no reason to take a gamble on the humans unless he knew that was the only way to beat him at the time. Also, he directly wanted to kill Mr. Buu after that, without the help of any humans.

3) But he clearly knew about them as well, seeing as how he said no to Goku when he suggested they fight Buu.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Or, he knew that Gohan and Gotenks weren't enough to kill Kid Buu. There is absolutely no reason to take a gamble on the humans unless he knew that was the only way to beat him at the time. Also, he directly wanted to kill Mr. Buu after that, without the help of any humans.

You have entirely missed the point of the reason that Vegeta wanted Goku to use Super Genki Dama.

[Darkprince410]

1) It is also important to note that all the absorptions that were reverted, the absorbees were seen inside Buu's body when Goku and Vegeta were there

2) Or, he knew that Gohan and Gotenks weren't enough to kill Kid Buu. There is absolutely no reason to take a gamble on the humans unless he knew that was the only way to beat him at the time. Also, he directly wanted to kill Mr. Buu after that, without the help of any humans.

3) But he clearly knew about them as well, seeing as how he said no to Goku when he suggested they fight Buu.

1) Dai Kaioushin and South Kaioushin WERE in there though, as they were part of Mr. Buu. Mr. Buu's ki was predominantly the ki of the two Kaioushin that Buu had absorbed, as the ki that belonged to Buu escaped when it formed the initial, gray, Evil Buu, so when Mr. Buu's cocoon was ripped out, it was the kis of the Kaioushin that dissipated.

2) His entire reason for using the Genki Dama was because he didn't want the boys or any other member of the Z Senshi to destroy Buu in place of the human race. He knew it was a gamble, but his reasons were driven because he wanted humanity to contribute, not because he felt they weren't strong enough. As for killing Mr. Buu, that was just because he wanted to make sure that nothing like that ever happened again, and unlike in the case of Pure Buu, it's not like he wasn't powerful enough to take him out (especially in Buu's weakened state from fighting Pure Buu) to take him out on his own. What would humanity do to contribute to destroy Mr. Buu? Another Genki Dama, especially since they donated all their available genki for the first one?

3) At the time Vegeta said that, he didn't plan to have Dende use Porunga to restore Earth and its inhabitants. He only came to that plan after Goku lost the ability to hold the Super Saiya-jin 3 form and it was clear that Mr. Buu couldn't beat Pure Buu, so he didn't have them in mind at all. Likewise, even if he did have them in mind, as I mentioned before, the context of the line is not that he's physically the strongest, but that he's the best fighter because he absolutely refuses to give up. He's acknowledging Goku's fighting spirit and character as being the best moreso than he's saying that Goku is the strongest fighter.

[SaiyanZ]

Or, he knew that Gohan and Gotenks weren't enough to kill Kid Buu. There is absolutely no reason to take a gamble on the humans unless he knew that was the only way to beat him at the time. Also, he directly wanted to kill Mr. Buu after that, without the help of any humans.

You have entirely missed the point of the reason that Vegeta wanted Goku to use Super Genki Dama.

I will admit, I was an idiot for posting that. Guess that is what late night does to you

[SaiyanZ]

1) It is also important to note that all the absorptions that were reverted, the absorbees were seen inside Buu's body when Goku and Vegeta were there

2) Or, he knew that Gohan and Gotenks weren't enough to kill Kid Buu. There is absolutely no reason to take a gamble on the humans unless he knew that was the only way to beat him at the time. Also, he directly wanted to kill Mr. Buu after that, without the help of any humans.

3) But he clearly knew about them as well, seeing as how he said no to Goku when he suggested they fight Buu.

1) Dai Kaioushin and South Kaioushin WERE in there though, as they were part of Mr. Buu. Mr. Buu's ki was predominantly the ki of the two Kaioushin that Buu had absorbed, as the ki that belonged to Buu escaped when it formed the initial, gray, Evil Buu, so when Mr. Buu's cocoon was ripped out, it was the kis of the Kaioushin that dissipated.

2) His entire reason for using the Genki Dama was because he didn't want the boys or any other member of the Z Senshi to destroy Buu in place of the human race. He knew it was a gamble, but his reasons were driven because he wanted humanity to contribute, not because he felt they weren't strong enough. As for killing Mr. Buu, that was just because he wanted to make sure that nothing like that ever happened again, and unlike in the case of Pure Buu, it's not like he wasn't powerful enough to take him out (especially in Buu's weakened state from fighting Pure Buu) to take him out on his own. What would humanity do to contribute to destroy Mr. Buu? Another Genki Dama, especially since they donated all their available genki for the first one?

3) At the time Vegeta said that, he didn't plan to have Dende use Porunga to restore Earth and its inhabitants. He only came to that plan after Goku lost the ability to hold the Super Saiya-jin 3 form and it was clear that Mr. Buu couldn't beat Pure Buu, so he didn't have them in mind at all. Likewise, even if he did have them in mind, as I mentioned before, the context of the line is not that he's physically the strongest, but that he's the best fighter because he absolutely refuses to give up. He's acknowledging Goku's fighting spirit and character as being the best moreso than he's saying that Goku is the strongest fighter.

1) Agreed

2) OK, I guess that makes sense

3) Oh, I was thinking about wrong line

[Bussani]

I will admit though, SaiyanZ, you made a good point about it being a bit dumb to risk using the Genki Dama when there are other options--possibly even more options than just getting Gohan and Gotenks! I mean, if Goku couldn't win because his living body couldn't handle Super Saiyan 3, couldn't Vegeta just have killed Goku? "There, now you're stronger, Kakarrot!" There was also at least one pair of potara that Vegeta hadn't managed to ruin yet...although I suppose him preferring something that risks the fate of the universe over fusing with Goku isn't that far-fetched... But if you ask me, getting pretty much everyone who's ever been in the story to contribute to an attack that finishes the bad guy is the best ending possible, even if there are other options available.

[SaiyanZ]

I will admit though, SaiyanZ, you made a good point about it being a bit dumb to risk using the Genki Dama when there are other options--possibly even more options than just getting Gohan and Gotenks! I mean, if Goku couldn't win because his living body couldn't handle Super Saiyan 3, couldn't Vegeta just have killed Goku? "There, now you're stronger, Kakarrot!" There was also at least one pair of potara that Vegeta hadn't managed to ruin yet...although I suppose him preferring something that risks the fate of the universe over fusing with Goku isn't that far-fetched... But if you ask me, getting pretty much everyone who's ever been in the story to contribute to an attack that finishes the bad guy is the best ending possible, even if there are other options available.

I'm not TOTALLY sold on the idea that Vegeta vested all of his trust in the humans...but to totally disregard Gohan and Gotenks like that? That must've been some consensus he came to

[SaiyanZ]

And yes, I couldn't agree more that it was a good ending having something like everybody coming together happen

[Bussani]

I think it's like I said in the other thread (and to a lesser extent in this one): I don't think either interpretations are completely perfect. No matter which way you look at it, there's something that seems odd and might require a bit of hand waving or explaining. Why would they rely on Genki Dama if there were safer options? Why would Goku say, "We did it!" if all they did was make Buu worse? In the end, all we can do is decide for ourselves which option feels the least flawed, and that tends to come down to a matter of opinion. Heck, people can't even agree on which explanations and hand waves are simple and which are stretches!

[Hitiro]

I think you guys are missing the point as to why the fight ended like this. Lets forget for a moment about all the In-universe reasons for why they decided to do this and fall back to the creator of the story, Akira Toriyama. The whole of the dragonball story has been based around the adventure of finding the dragonballs and the people they made friends with along the way. Akira Toriyama provided a perfect ending to the last fight in the dragonball story by using the aspect of the dragonballs and the friendships that were made along Goku's journeys in the best possible scenario.

1) The dragonballs are used to bring everyone back, this shows the contribution of the one factor in the dragonball universe that has made, and driven, the entire story possible and what we loved about it, the dragonballs.

2) The Genki Dama was then used using everyone's spirit on earth which is the other aspect of the dragonball story, friendship made through the struggle towards a common goal or friendship made from the help of one another to reach our own individual goals. In fact, the most effective piece which drives this aspect home is the panels of Goku's friends raising up their hands to give him their energy.

3) Finally we have the dragonballs play their role one last time in restoring Goku's energy. One can say that this is a circle of sorts that Akira Toriyama probably didn't intentionally make but it is there nonetheless. We come back to the dragonballs which started this whole story off and was the instigator of many of Goku's friendships, whenever he went to find the dragonballs it would bring forth new bonds of friendship. But ultimately it will always come back to the quest for the dragonballs to start things off all over again.

So we really shouldn't dwell on "Why not bring Gohan to destroy Kid Buu? He was the most powerful being in existence at the time." or "If they brought the kids and Gohan the fight wouldn't have been a problem." Akira Toriyama finished the story in the best way possible in my honest opinion. I personally feel that Fat Buu was also a weakness for Super Buu in the fact that Fat Buu represents the 2 Kaioshins. While Super Buu is more powerful due to him being the evil that represents the Fat Buu's other half due to him being weakened by the Kaioshins, so with the evil now taking over he still isn't at the level of Kid Buu but he is pretty close. And I keep being reminded of the conversation between Kibitoshin and the Elder Kai:

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

I feel that Kid Buu isn't much stronger than Super Buu, and while people will bring up the point about how Goku says they can't win against Super Buu, etc. I would like to point out that Goku says a lot of things throughout this arc which are false claims, either to protect the pride of Vegeta or to give other people a chance to defend the world. This is really my own opinion though, you can choose whether to disagree or not but I stand by the fact that Kid Buu(Pure Buu), while he is untainted by other beings, remains the most powerful version of Buu's transformations(Except for when Super Buu absorbs Gotenks or Gohan) because his power comes from his evil heart. While Gotenks and Gohan did increase Buu's power I feel it wasn't anywhere near their actual limits as Gotenks and Gohan are also pure good. This also makes Vegito's power more realistic, for example; Absorbing Gohan only gave Boo a 25% increase in power because Gohan is pure good. Like I said, you can choose to disagree with me if you want but I stick by this.

[hleV]

I see no reason whatsoever to think that Boo's power depends on how evil he is.

[Hitiro]

I see no reason whatsoever to think that Boo's power depends on how evil he is.

How do you come to that conclusion? If we examine the facts of the story his power became severely diminished when he absorbed the Dai Kaioshin because of his good nature. Kibitoshin even says "the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption" I think it is pretty evident that the gentle spirit of the Dai Kaioshin weakened his power because he effected Buu's heart. Supreme Kai said that all of the Kaioshins were stronger than Frieza, we do not know by how much but lets say that they were around his level for arguments sake.

If Pure Buu absorbed them then surely his power should have increased by 2 Frieza's, this is not the case however. In fact we see Majin Buu get more or less destroyed by Pure Buu in a fight which just goes to show that there is a massive gap in their respective powers. And even Goku who was knocking around Majin Buu pretty effortlessly in SSJ3 was having a difficult time against Pure Buu. So I would say that the Purity of ones heart does have diminishing factor on Buu because his heart is evil. It probably isn't as noticeable with people like Gotenks or Gohan because they are vastly superior to the Kaioshins in terms of power so even if their pure hearts were to weaken Buu it wouldn't take away all of the power they have from him.

[dbgtFO]

What I get out of the above quote.

1) The absorption of The Kaioshin of South made him turn into that Buff Buu we just saw. Furthermore The Kaioshin of South was the first to be absorbed.

2) Majin Buu was evil itself until the absorption of The Great Kaioshin, which means the absorption of The Kaioshin of South didn't affect his personality.

3) Majin Buu's power was lowered, when he gained a heart. Since the absorption of The Kaioshin of South didn't contribute to that, it becomes clear, that he only lowered his power by absorbing The Great Kaioshin, as he is afterall the only one, who affected his heart/personality.

The quote is just talking about how he went from Pure Buu to the first form of Buu we ever see and his return to his original evil self.

As for Daizenshuu 7's quote on Gotenks, if it's trying to tell that Gotenks was weaker than Vegeta and "the others", then my question would be who "the others" were, if they aren't Goku and Gohan. Piccolo and everyone else on the lookout? Gotenks was already way stronger than those guys as showcased, when Piccolo failed to keep up with Gotenks' Super Saiyan speed. So who are they talking about?
Perhaps that quote is just being overanalyzed like so many other things.

As for Buu and being evil. On that point I'd agree to some of what Hitiro is saying. Majin Buu's power dropped after absorbing The Great Kaioshin thanks to the latter's good nature.
But it's best not to jump straight to conclusions like "since Super Buu is less evil than Pure Buu, Pure Buu is the stronger one." Super Buu may be less evil, but he has The Kaioshin of South absorbed, which Pure Buu didn't, he could be an exception just as much as Hitiro thinks Gotenks-Buu and Gohan-Buu are.

[Bussani]

I think you guys are missing the point as to why the fight ended like this.

SaiyanZ and I already agreed on that much, so I absolutely agree with you. But this being the in-universe section, I suppose it's understandable that people will be discussing in-story explanations.

If Pure Buu absorbed them then surely his power should have increased by 2 Freeza's, this is not the case however. In fact we see Majin Buu get more or less destroyed by Pure Buu in a fight which just goes to show that there is a massive gap in their respective powers.

I don't think the Fat Buu and "Mr. Buu" are the same strength, though. The story tells us that the majority of his power went to the skinny, evil Buu when it spewed out, and there's nothing to suggest it ever got jammed back into him, as far as I remember.

And even Goku who was knocking around Majin Buu pretty effortlessly in SSJ3 was having a difficult time against Pure Buu.

The two fights look pretty similar to me. Fat Buu gives Goku at least a little trouble, but the fight ends before it can turn into anything too serious. I'd probably be able to believe that Majin Buu and Pure Buu were more or less the same strength and put any difference in the fight down to the differences in their personalities--one being playful, and the other being ferocious and unyielding.