Was Nappa stronger than post-Kaiou trained Gokuu?

[Kaboom]

There's nothing to discredit his power level being 17,500 beyond fans' preconceptions about what is or isn't possible at some particular gap or another.
Yeah I can do that too Kaboom.

I'm not sure how else to respond to that other than to finally take off the "equal grounds discussion" cap, put on the "moderator" cap, and give a verbal warning to watch the attitude. This is Kanzenshuu, not some pit where you can dish out snark because you don't like what you're being told. The "lol" a few posts back was the first warning sign, and I tried to respond in as clear and fair a manner as I can, but that was only met with more haughty snark.

Nappa's official battle power is 4000, which, to answer the topic's original question, is only about half of Goku's "over 8000." Fans' opinions to the contrary do not change this or outweigh it and really matter very little.

[VegettoEX]

I'm re-opening this thread and reminding folks -- all folks -- that while there's nothing wrong with a cheeky comment every once in a while, you are fully expected to type properly (something you agreed to twice prior to registration) and be courteous and understanding of your fellow fans and everything they want to bring to the table to discuss. That may be the manga, or it may be that PLUS the anime PLUS guide books. That's the beautiful thing here: we're a community that has all of this information at our disposal, and with people who actually understand where it comes from and can offer interesting and unique ways to interpret it. Your interpretation is not the only interpretation, and if you feel that it is, there's really no reason for you to even be discussing anything in the first place, is there?

To toss something of my own into the mix, here's a fun one: the DBZ Movie 3 theatrical booklet (which you could get at the movie's premiere) puts Nappa at a battle power of 4,500. This was about a year or so before the Weekly Jump issue that first pegged battle powers for Raditz, Nappa, etc.

[Tyro]

My understanding on Nappa's "official" battle power is that it's either only talking about when he was fighting Piccolo and co, or that it's wrong/controversial/up to interpretation/not set in stone. For example, the Daizenshuu states that Gohan was a SSj2 when fighting Dabra, but just look at how debatable that is today; it's unlikely that you'll meet anyone who says that Gohan HAD to be SSj2 because the Daizenshuu says so. Like everything else, it depends on how high you regard the Daizenshuu as an authority. This is just one of a handful of times that I don't agree with that provided information.

I'm not as well versed in all the statements made anymore, but if Vegeta meant that people who can control their power are unique, I gotta assume that he's only talking about being able to suppress it. Between Nappa and Vegeta they "power up" (if that's what it is, granted) like 3-4 times. I don't know what you'd call that otherwise.

So it's my opinion that Nappa was 4,000 fighting everyone before Goku arrives and maxes out somewhere close-ish to Goku's 8,000, thus allowing a more even fight even though it's obvious that Goku wasn't using full effort. To believe that Nappa was only 4,000 the entire time is to believe that Goku was holding back over half of his strength, and that doesn't sit well with me because I don't see the evidence for it.

[Kaboom]

To toss something of my own into the mix, here's a fun one: the DBZ Movie 3 theatrical booklet (which you could get at the movie's premiere) puts Nappa at a battle power of 4,500. This was about a year or so before the Weekly Jump issue that first pegged battle powers for Raditz, Nappa, etc.

That is interesting. I wonder what inspired the "retcon," since I'm sure that small 500-point difference might tip the scales for some people. I know a few who would prefer him to be at 5000 or so.

[Bussani]

I'm not as well versed in all the statements made anymore, but if Vegeta meant that people who can control their power are unique, I gotta assume that he's only talking about being able to suppress it. Between Nappa and Vegeta they "power up" (if that's what it is, granted) like 3-4 times. I don't know what you'd call that otherwise.

I think I'm fairly well versed in these statements, because I was really interested in the question of whether they could alter their ki, and personally, I don't think this explanation fits well enough for me. Freeza's men (including Vegeta and Nappa) seem to act like battle powers shouldn't change at all. They detect Goku's 5,000 and say, "But that might only be for starters because these people can change their battle power," but that doesn't seem to make sense if it's completely normal for people to power up. They should be saying: "We're reading 5,000 now, but he'll probably power up like us and everybody else in the universe when he starts fighting." There's also the way Vegeta has them take their scouters off when they meet the Earthlings because their initial readings are of no use to them, but wouldn't that be the case with everyone they meet if raising your battle power was normal?

If we look even more deeply into it, the Earthlings couldn't even tell Vegeta was more powerful than Nappa to begin with (Piccolo only guessing he was stronger because of how bossy he was), so was Vegeta really around Nappa's level before he powered up? That would be a truly massive change in battle power, putting any "suppressing" the Earthlings might have been doing completely to shame. I feel like there just has to be more to it than that, and I do have an explanation that I'm comfortable with, but most people don't like it.

[Toadster]

My personal theory is that the Earthlings weren't that skilled at pegging exact power levels on ki they could sense quite yet. They knew both Nappa and Vegeta were strong, but probably not how strong. After all, Krillin and everybody thought his blast that he used against the Saibamen and Saiyans would have damaged the Saiyans as well.

I don't think it's until the Freeza saga that they become more skilled at ki sensing. After all, they were able to peg Captain Ginyu's power as way above the other Ginyu members, and Guldo's power way below the others. Captain Ginyu was even suppressing his power. That's just my theory.

[Fox666]

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[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

^^ I like that explanation.

I feel like there just has to be more to it than that, and I do have an explanation that I'm comfortable with, but most people don't like it.

Would you mind sharing it for my sake?

[Bussani]

Would you mind sharing it for my sake?

Sure. Actually, it's close to what Toadster said, and I think he put it in a simpler way than I would have tried to. Basically, the idea is that Nappa and Vegeta's "battle powers"--the numbers read by a scouter, specifically--never changed at all, but that the humans could only feel the true size of their power precisely when they're all pumped up for battle. To use an analogy, it's possible to have a sound wave that's really powerful, but sounds really quiet to a human because it's on the edge of our frequency range. You could imagine that Nappa getting all pumped up and mobilizing his ki for battle would be like a frequency shift, making his power easier to perceive for the Earthlings. To explain it in one sentence: ki sensing could be easier when a person's ki is raging than when it's calm.

Of course, just a year before the battle with the Saiyans, ki sensing seemed way more basic than even that. Goku and Piccolo couldn't even find Raditz by sensing his ki, yet Goku in the Buu arc can lock onto Bulma's. I think their skill at ki sensing constantly improves, so the above theory might only apply to the Saiyan arc. In other words, if Buu arc Goku at been at the Saiyan arc battle, he may well have been able to tell exactly how strong Nappa and Vegeta were right away.

Anyway, that's one way of looking at it. It's not for everyone, but in my personal opinion, it's the only interpretation I've found that fits everything the manga tells us.

[Fox666]

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[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I'm confused, unfortunately. So you're saying Nappa's Battle Power didn't actually go up or it was just a powerful way to utilise his ki that made it able to match Gokuu a little better at 4,000?

[Bussani]

That's not just an idea, it's flat out given in the manga. All the guys who use Scouters always shout "OMG they changed their battle power at will! I never heard of something like that before!", while the Earthlings still noticed Vegeta or Freeza Ki increasing when they powered-up.

Well, I agree, at least.

I'm confused, unfortunately. So you're saying Nappa's Battle Power didn't actually go up or it was just a powerful way to utilise his ki that made it able to match Gokuu a little better at 4,000?

I wasn't really thinking about how Goku compared to Nappa at all, to be honest. But yeah, I don't think his battle power (i.e. the numbers a scouter comes up with) would have changed between arriving on Earth, fighting the Earthlings, and fighting Goku.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Let me ask you this (I actually really like this idea): do you think people that could sense ki would think something like "Wow, his ki/ power increased dramatically!" if someone used a similar state as Nappa even though the scouter measurement wouldn't change? If so, do you think anyone else has used this or something similar, perhaps? I kind of wonder if Ultimate Gohan might be, like, a magically enhanced version of this. Maybe Kaiou-ken might follow a similar ki pattern as well; just maybe with the Kaiou-ken x3-4 Kamehame-ha, Gokuu was focusing his energy into a blast so it was detected on Buruma's scouter, and with Ginyuu, Goku was intentionally powering up to be detected.

[Kaboom]

I figure it's not so much about their ki actually increasing or decreasing, but more about how easy or "obvious" their power is to sense. Like how something might look all fuzzy and out of focus before you put on your glasses. Same kind of deal. At this point in the series, the characters might not be able to tell exactly just how strong their enemies are until they actually ramp up and start using their power, which makes it more "clear."

[Herms]

To toss something of my own into the mix, here's a fun one: the DBZ Movie 3 theatrical booklet (which you could get at the movie's premiere) puts Nappa at a battle power of 4,500. This was about a year or so before the Weekly Jump issue that first pegged battle powers for Raditz, Nappa, etc.

Actually it was a year or so later than the Weekly Jump issue with Nappa's BP of 4,000.

[Bussani]

Let me ask you this (I actually really like this idea): do you think people that could sense ki would think something like "Wow, his ki/ power increased dramatically!" if someone used a similar state as Nappa even though the scouter measurement wouldn't change?

Potentially, yes, if their ki sensing is only sharp enough to sense the ki precisely when it's very active and fired up.

If so, do you think anyone else has used this or something similar, perhaps? I kind of wonder if Ultimate Gohan might be, like, a magically enhanced version of this. Maybe Kaiou-ken might follow a similar ki pattern as well

I think everyone's ki gets active and fired up when they fight (as an example, Gohan couldn't sense Videl's ki until she began fighting, even though Videl didn't even know what ki was yet and likely couldn't control her battle power), but I'm not sure how someone would use this for anything useful. How were you thinking of applying it to the likes of Ultimate Gohan and Kaio-ken?

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I figure it's not so much about their ki actually increasing or decreasing, but more about how easy or "obvious" their power is to sense. Like how something might look all fuzzy and out of focus before you put on your glasses. Same kind of deal. At this point in the series, the characters might not be able to tell exactly just how strong their enemies are until they actually ramp up and start using their power, which makes it more "clear."

Hmm.

Do you think it's possible (or likely, even [I doubt you will think so ]), that, Gokuu was over 8,000 against Nappa because he was "angry", but as Nappa started getting more serious and calm, Gokuu calmed down as well and powered down to a more relaxed state? Like, not intentionally? If he was around 5,000 when he was calm, it might make sense.

I will also guess you would just dismiss Bejiita's willingness to let Nappa fight someone much stronger than him to be carelessness and/ or intrigued observation of Gokuu's abilities and Nappa's willingness to fight him to be his irrational-blind rage/ egotistical behaviour.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

How were you thinking of applying it to the likes of Ultimate Gohan and Kaio-ken?

Maybe Gohan @SSJ2/3 wouldn't have known how to do such a thing, but the Elder Kaiou-shin would make it like that except with maybe permanent/ long-term seal to maintain the 'true' SSJ2/3 power state of Gohan in Ultimate? Kaiou-ken; it's not increasing battle power at all; it's using what's already inside you from what I remember, so maybe that's just what Nappa and maybe others did to an extent without realizing it and possibly thought they were just using their "full" power.

[Fox666]

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[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

His over all Battle Power, then?