Dragon Ball things you never want to hear again

[dbboxkaifan]

Not exactly from Dragon Ball, but its fans:

"oh god the japanese dub voices are so shitty"
"japanese dub voices havent hit puberty"
"japanese goku sounds gay"

These kind of fans are disrespecting the original Dragon Ball voice cast and the work too, but they don't notice it. And it isn't a dub, it's the original Japanese audio of the series.

[FindKenshi]

I hope I never hear that Gohan is stronger than Goku again. With Battle of Gods being so endorsed by Toriyama, this should bury that nonsense

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I hope I never hear that Gohan is stronger than Goku again. With Battle of Gods being so endorsed by Toriyama, this should bury that nonsense

It's not "nonsense". Goku will surpass Gohan because of his new form.

[FindKenshi]

I hope I never hear that Gohan is stronger than Goku again. With Battle of Gods being so endorsed by Toriyama, this should bury that nonsense

It's not "nonsense". Goku will surpass Gohan because of his new form.

We'll have to wait for the movie to come out, and see for sure. Any further discussion is baseless.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I hope I never hear that Gohan is stronger than Goku again. With Battle of Gods being so endorsed by Toriyama, this should bury that nonsense

It's not "nonsense". Goku will surpass Gohan because of his new form.

We'll have to wait for the movie to come out, and see for sure. Any further discussion is baseless.

Well, no, Gohan > Goku is not baseless. The manga has enough evidence for Gohan > Goku, and zero evidence for Goku > Gohan.

[DBZAOTA482]

A recent offense I have against them though is that they consider Piccolo and Chi-Chi jerks (with hearts of gold that is but still...).

Piccolo (Junior) is a jerk prior to character development (and even in the Cell Saga, he can be pretty stand-offish for some) and while Chi Chi's heart is in the right place, her tongue's undeniably sharp (Anime-wise mostly but the Manga at times too) and her temper can get lost (though jerk isn't the word that comes to my mind). Plus, I wouldn't take the trope names too literally in this regard.

Also Your Millage May Vary (durhurhur, seewatididthar?) but TV Tropes being full of shit is pretty stretching it. You don't have to like it but still...

I supposed but I wouldn't have mind as much if it was only on the Your Milleage May Vary page but it's an official labeling in a trope, and they apply it quite loosely so IMO.

Basically the person who put them there thinks anyone who expresses dissatisfaction is automatically a jerk. The criteria for a jerk with hearts of gold would be someone who is mean in general, regardless if the another person is being nice or not but has human pathos to compensate. Piccolo can only classify after kindling a bond with Gohan but there he never seemed like a jerk to me just grumpy and a bit aloof. I hardly remember anytime he spoke or acted out of malice since then. As for Chi-Chi, I understand what he/she is getting at but it's still a bit of a harsh generalization mainly because she's the only female character mentioned on the list (Bulma and Videl more or less have the same personality faults; the former is arguably even worse). She's no saint or anything but her hyper personality is to bring a balance between Goku's laid-back nature and general lack of taking responsibilities outside the spectrum of fighting, and it's not as though she actively belittles Goku for his intelligence, lifestyle, and fathership skills or does she lash out at Gohan for not getting straight A's so to speak. The Jerkass facade trope would work much better for them (which Chi-Chi was originally listed at).

Then again, this is far from their worst misplacement.

[matt0044]

^Point taken. Though TV Tropes isn't run by one guy/group but by various people who'll clearly have differing opinions. I still think the site's great but nothing/nobody's perfect. I still say that calling them "shit" is still stretching it. Heck, if you want, you can edit it so you can correct it.

Basically the person who put them there thinks anyone who expresses dissatisfaction is automatically a jerk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxeuVQEdt-w

I'd rather not let this spiral into an off-topic debate that derails the whole thread (annoys me a lot) so let's just stop here and get back on topic. If you wish, you can PM me.

Here, I'll get us back on track: I hope to hear less of the "Kai sux" drivel and how willingly ignorant dub fans can be.

[FindKenshi]

Well, no, Gohan > Goku is not baseless. The manga has enough evidence for Gohan > Goku, and zero evidence for Goku > Gohan.

Then why is Goku clearly established as being stronger than Gohan in the anime? We all agree the anime introduces content that isn't always consistent with the manga, but for something that significant, it seems like it'd be one mighty big mistake. Why in over 10 years has such a "basic fact" as I'm sure you consider it never been touched upon in any guidebook or interview? Furthermore, why does the ending seem to imply the opposite, when it's stated that Goku's the last hope while fighting Kid Buu in Kaioshin Kai, and that Gohan's power alone didn't make the Genki Dama capable of defeating Buu?

We can argue back and forth some more, or you can accept that there's a tad more than "zero" evidence that Goku > Gohan.. it's a debate, plain and simple. There is no definite answer, period. There will always be fans such as myself and others (I assure you, I am not alone on this matter) who believe that Goku was superior.

If anything, I can see the argument being made that Toriyama changed his mind halfway through. I kind of agree with Herms when he once said long ago that he feels if you analyze all the details it seems that Gohan and Super Buu are stronger, but when you compare the flow of the plot with what is Toriyama's norm, it seems from the author's perspective Goku and Kid Buu were the stronger, even if it doesn't necessarily "make sense" to us.

To me, you can MAKE it make sense, if you consider all the little breadcrumbs dropped along the way. Kaioshin energy can't be used to power Buu up. When he began reverting into Buff Buu, they commented he was getting stronger. They never, ever made a comment about him then getting weaker again. From a storywriting prespective, it makes little sense to have the characters comment on how his power was going up during an intermediary form mid-transformation.. if the intent wasn't that his power was rising throughout the whole transformation. Some fans just won't accept that... You do have to look at things from an "Out-of-universe" perspective, too.

Anyway, like I said. Let's wait for the movie to come out. There's a reason, to me, that no official source in over 10 years has ever come out and declared one stronger than the other. I feel the movie will probably establish Toriyama's own opinion on the matter, and that will be good enough for me. Though by the fact that Gohan and the Z-Crew all seem to fight Bills and lose, then Goku shows up and at least holds his own prior to making his new transformation, I have a VERY good feeling which will be stronger.

[Rod]

Discussion of power levels, who could beat who, x is stronger than y, etc. You get the idea, every time I see a conversation like this, a picture of two TV stereotype nerds pops into my head

Basically any DB is serious business talk

[FindKenshi]

Kami forbid people talk about who's stronger than who in a story about fighting.

[Rocketman]

Then why is Goku clearly established as being stronger than Gohan in the anime?

Because Toei's lips are firmly yet lovingly wrapped around Goku's dick.

See also: the movies, GT.

[MDSTSSJ]

I never want to hear or read again people hating Kakarotto. I don´t understand that.

I like Gohan but, too much power given in the Boo saga at the expense of anything, undeserved power given only by the plot. For me, Kakarotto is the strongest and well deserved!!!

[Saiga]

Kami forbid people talk about who's stronger than who in a story about fighting.

Yeah. I understand that people may not have any interest in those conversations themselves, but I find it utterly bizarre that they act like it's so weird to talk about.

[Gaffer Tape]

While I don't care for those conversations, I don't really hold any antipathy towards them either. They're just... sorta there. But if I had to guess, while throwing in my own perspective, it's simply that, unlike analyzing plot or characters, there's just not much to talk about that's not either throwing out stats with increasingly complicated "mathematical" inequalities or endless fanwanking. That's not to say that there is not potentially a lot to say on both of those counts. A lot of people love talking about that, and that's fine. But to the people who don't like it, it feels like either, "I pull this number out of a book, discussion undeniably over," or, "This character is stronger because G<H=TxE+Z-RocktheDragon, but I can't prove this, so discussion is FOREVARZ!!!"

I dunno. For me at least, unless there's something entirely ridiculous and nonsensical happening, I just feel quite pleased accepting that each character is as strong at any given time as that character is supposed to be. I'm much more concerned with how it's accomplished: is the strength is earned by the character in an interesting way, is it delivered in a way that's emotionally and narratively satisfying, and how do/does the character/s react/s to this? So I do care about power differentials but only in how they affect the narrative, not for their own sake, and not because I feel the need to defend a character in a recreation of the schoolyard argument, "My dad can beat your dad."

[Attitudefan]

Discussion of power levels, who could beat who, x is stronger than y, etc. You get the idea, every time I see a conversation like this, a picture of two TV stereotype nerds pops into my head

Basically any DB is serious business talk

YES!!! Thank you! I agree. And not to mention the show basically dismissed power levels; also, any character can break through a power plateau which also renders battle power useless.

[MCDaveG]

Kami forbid people talk about who's stronger than who in a story about fighting.

Yeah. I understand that people may not have any interest in those conversations themselves, but I find it utterly bizarre that they act like it's so weird to talk about.

Actually for me, it's bizzare because this discussion have obvious outcome. You will never be able to state the fact, because in Shonen, the strongest warrior is the one, who gets the spotlight at the time.
There are no inbetweens, only absolutes and the story is really uncomplicated like that, like in every Shonen, only, if some character states otherwise.
That's why I find bizzare these die-hard discussions, about casual shonen.
When Goku turns SSJ, he's simply stronger a lot and when Gotensk fought Buu, he was the strongest, then was the Gohan and then the Goku, the end.
That's my point of view. Never heard these discussions about other shonen series.

[Saiga]

Actually for me, it's bizzare because this discussion have obvious outcome. You will never be able to state the fact, because in Shonen, the strongest warrior is the one, who gets the spotlight at the time.
There are no inbetweens, only absolutes and the story is really uncomplicated like that, like in every Shonen, only, if some character states otherwise.
That's why I find bizzare these die-hard discussions, about casual shonen.
When Goku turns SSJ, he's simply stronger a lot and when Gotensk fought Buu, he was the strongest, then was the Gohan and then the Goku, the end.
That's my point of view. Never heard these discussions about other shonen series.

I don't see how that makes sense. Goku didn't get any stronger during the Boo Arc, so how could he be the strongest by the Boo battle if he isn't before?

Besides, you don't *need* to be the strongest to have the spotlight on you.

[Super 17]

I don't know if it has been said through 26 pages of this thread, but...

I NEVER want to hear how Kami and Piccolo used to be one and then split because he wanted the evil out of him. Jesus. How many times did we really have to know that, towards the end of DB, throughout DBZ, up until he and Kami finally become one in episode 141. Good riddance.

[MCDaveG]

Actually for me, it's bizzare because this discussion have obvious outcome. You will never be able to state the fact, because in Shonen, the strongest warrior is the one, who gets the spotlight at the time.
There are no inbetweens, only absolutes and the story is really uncomplicated like that, like in every Shonen, only, if some character states otherwise.
That's why I find bizzare these die-hard discussions, about casual shonen.
When Goku turns SSJ, he's simply stronger a lot and when Gotensk fought Buu, he was the strongest, then was the Gohan and then the Goku, the end.
That's my point of view. Never heard these discussions about other shonen series.

I don't see how that makes sense. Goku didn't get any stronger during the Boo Arc, so how could he be the strongest by the Boo battle if he isn't before?

Besides, you don't *need* to be the strongest to have the spotlight on you.

Shonen logic. He defetaed Buu, he was the mightiest warrior. Like Seiya, he's the biggest slacker against all the other bronze Saints, who are working hard to overcome limits,
but he simply falls on his head 60 times and then wins by sheer willpower.
For me it's waste of time, to discuss something, that isn't stated clearly in the series and these debates didn't changed a bit since I'm the member here. No one, was able to put a legitimite and accurate chart of how much powerfull the warriors are for 8 years I'm here. Every discussion is a spin-off of Power levels in Freeza arc.
That's my last argument, I said all I wanted.

[Saiga]

I'm more tired of hearing people not understanding it and asking questions about it.

It's not very fair of me, as it is really confusing, but I've just heard people asking about it so damn much.

@MCDaveG That's not logic, that's a lapse in logic. I don't see how a character would go from not being the strongest to being the strongest, without actually gaining any strength. Especially when it's not even necessary for him to be any stronger to defeat the weakened Boo. If it were true, it'd be just plain terrible writing.