How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

[Saiga]

What about Roshi noticing that their reach wasn't the same, which made him launch an attack that took advantage of that fact and won him the match? It was either Roshi's genius or experience that allowed him to notice that, but I'm more inclined to think it was his experience. Also, the match only lasted that long because Goku's transformed. Otherwise, Roshi would have won with his electric technique (of which I forgot the name), and that technique is also probably born out of Roshi's genius or experience.

So, to me it's clear that Roshi's experience played a part in that fight. Perhaps just what he needed to win.

Against Tenshinhan, both of their experience were probably around the same without significant differences.

I don't believe Roshi deliberately took advantage of that. Didn't he only mention it after the match was concluded? To me is seemed like he was lucky, and realised the source of his victory after that. As for the Bankoku Bikkuri Shō, techniques are not the most reliable indicator of being a better fighter. Even if you're right on both accounts, that's still a fair smaller contribution than you'd expect for someone who has practiced martial arts for over 300 years against a 12-year-old boy who was only taught the basics before his Grandpa was killed.

Against Tenshinhan, Roshi should really have more experience. And Goku was also on the same level and should have less experience than either, but it still didn't seem to detriment him in his battle with Tenshinhan.

It just doesn't seem like it takes a lot of formal training to be on the same level of skill as the masters.

[Bussani]

Pan Pan genki is NOT all of ki. It's been stated ki is actually composed of three parts, genki (energy), yuki (courage), and shoki (mind).

Ki is your spiritual force. That's why your mind and your courage can influence your level of power, but only genki is energy.

I kind of disagree with this. People are tempted to refer to genki as literal energy, but it's less tangible than that. Asking if someone is genki is the same as asking if they're in high spirits, motivated, full of life, etc--it's a feeling, much like yuuki and shoki. These three metaphysical sources of strength (as well as others that Toriyama may not have listed) make up your total spiritual energy.

[rereboy]

I don't believe Roshi deliberately took advantage of that. Didn't he only mention it after the match was concluded?

I don't think so. If I remember correctly, he noticed that Goku was short before he decided to attack in that fashion.

Edit: yap, I was right. Roshi notices that on this page and decides to take advantage of that: http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd4/ ... 8e658f.jpg

In fact, that whole page, assuming that the translation is accurate, is a pretty good page for this entire argument. In it Roshi flat out states that power is what all comes down to and what matters, but he then adds to himself that he can't match Goku's power at that point. So he thinks and, out of his experience and or genius, comes up with what will allow him to win: taking advantage of Goku's inferior reach.

Even if you're right on both accounts, that's still a fair smaller contribution than you'd expect for someone who has practiced martial arts for over 300 years against a 12-year-old boy who was only taught the basics before his Grandpa was killed.

Against Tenshinhan, Roshi should really have more experience. And Goku was also on the same level and should have less experience than either, but it still didn't seem to detriment him in his battle with Tenshinhan.

It just doesn't seem like it takes a lot of formal training to be on the same level of skill as the masters.

You seem to be forgetting that Goku, besides having comparable power to Roshi at that point which is the most important factor to win, has always been a genius at fighting, even at that point, and a bigger genius than Roshi himself. He copied the Kamehameha after seeing it once, when it took Roshi 50 years to do it. Goku didn't just have power, that was never all of his qualities as a fighter. Despite being a 12 year old, since Goku had that much power and has always been a genius at fighting, Roshi needed all of his own genius and experience to pull off the win.

And this is the whole point isn't it? Power being what it comes down to, but genius, skill and experience also playing a role.

And Tenshinhan was another genius himself, arguably one as big as Goku or even bigger. He copied and produced a very strong Kamehameha and produced a counter technique for it on the spot. So I don't think that their fight could have been decided on genius alone. As for experience, I don't see why Tenshinhan would have significantly more experience than Goku. We know basically nothing of his fights before he fights Goku and he's not much older than Goku.

Also, this is a good moment to explain something. Experience is different than age. By the Saiyan Saga, Goku probably already had more experience than Roshi, despite the old age of Roshi. I mean, how many times did Roshi actually fight agaisnt terrible foes stronger or about as powerful as himself? By the time the Saiyan Saga roles in, its likely that Goku in his short life had already topped that.

[Saiga]

Oh, you're right, that was deliberate. I misremembered.

[Pan-Pan]

Genki is quite literally vitality, while yuuki is bravery, and shouki is being in your right mind. Its as metaphysical as the other two and all three are what Ki is made of. And without any one of them, a person has no usable Ki.

Of course, all of these terms are included into the concept of Ki. But I say it again, ki is spiritual force. You don't seem to understand that genki belongs to the "force" part while the two others belong to the "spirit" dimension. You're confusing things.

So, quite literally, when a person donates Genki to the Genki Dama, what is being donated is his or hers vitality, which is an essential part of his or hers Ki. But being only part of his or hers Ki, even though the donation can drain a person and make that person unable to fight or do much of anything because the person is left with little vitality and little usable Ki since Ki requires Genki to be formed, the total power of what is donated is inferior to what the person could produce by herself or himself with his or hers total Ki.

Only genki is energy. When you're not in your right mind, your ki is lowered only because you can't use your energy, not because a part of your energy has vanished. Yuuki and shouki are not energy. It's just that your state of mind can affect your ability to use your power. So, you won't be stronger strictly speaking because you're brave.
So, regarding the genkidama, the Earthlings' state of mind doesn't matter because they're not performing a technique, the genkidama takes their power directly from their bodies.

As I've said. He's just out of the Genki component of ki. That doesn't mean his other components reserves aren't there. He just can't substitute the energy required. It's like a cocktail. mixing in different amounts produces different results. Weighting it the teleportation technique might need 50% Genki, 25% Yuuki, 20% Shouki and 5% other to be used. Mixing the different subcomponents which make up Ki gives off a slightly different effect or technique. So the Kamehameha might be 75% Genki, 10% Yuuki, 2.5% Shouki and 12.5% other.

I suggest you to read what I've replied to rereboy. Genki, yuuki and shouki are not portions of power like slices of cake.

Yes, a 1/4 its final size. There is no way Gohan wouldn't make that at least 3/4 of its final size if he contributed all of his ki.

We don't know how many times stronger than Boo the final genkidama is. So, I don't see what the problem is.

But Goku does make out the Genki Dama to be a worse option.

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P8.3-4
Context: after Vegeta tells Goku to make a Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”
Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!”

Goku said it was useless because he thought it was the "classic genkidama". After Vegeta explained it to him, he agreed and began to make a genkidama. Obviously Goku was thinking that Vegeta's version of the genkidama was a better idea than bringing Gohan.

Of course it makes no sense to ignore an easy win. But then the easy win wouldn't make for a very good read, now would it? Goku and Vegeta could have had an easy win with the Potara, they didn't take that choice. They literally make it their goal to make it harder for themselves.

They didn't use the potalas because Vegeta didn't want to merge with Goku no matter what. And when they destroyed them, Pure Boo wasn't in the Kaioshinkai yet and Goku was about to "come up with a plan". Later, Goku realized he underestimated Pure Boo and then he regretted to have destroyed the potalas.

Only Videl and Kuririn's kid would be like that. The others have seen the dragon enough times to not be like "the dragon was so huge!". They would be pretty stupid if they forget the wish they just made after a few minutes. I'm sorry but you're just trying to make up excuses for an obvious plot hole in the story.

I told you they didn't forget the wish, they just forgot what the exact wording was. In their mind, they've only wished back to life the dead people from the Tenkaichi Budokai. It's quite credible.

Yes, but if Goku, Vegeta, Gohan and Gotenks were strong enough to fight Super Boo then that increases the odds of it not being the end of the world. So if in future Gohan and Gotenks are gone, yet again. There would still be Goku and Vegeta to take care of Super Boo.

Yes, but it's strange that Goku didn't mention Gohan as a trump card.

What reason did Goku have to lie in Boo's body?

You asked me this question before and I answered in detail. Please read my previous posts if you don't remember them. I don't like to keep repeating myself.

Inside Boo there was nothing to fall back on. Vegeta out-right refused to do the fusion dance

When Goku is telling they will be killed, he has not yet asked Vegeta for fusion dance. That's why he lied. To better convince Vegeta to fuse.

As for you're quote about Goku underestimating him due to his size that's silly, Goku previously noted his ki rise when he turned into Buff Boo. Why would he all of a sudden stop noticing Boo's ki and just comment on his size.

Vegeta's influence, probably...

Goku knows well enough not to underestimate an enemy due to his size. Gohan was one of the most powerful warriors in existence when he was a child. So to say Goku just switched off his "ki sensing" ability, as if he even could, and underestimate him due to his size is just a silly way to look at it.

It's just as silly to consider that Boo's power decreased whereas no power decrease was mentioned by anyone.

Vegeta was mocking his size, of course, but there is nothing to suggest Goku would pull a stupid and not take into consideration Boo's ki.

If he's taking into consideration Boo's ki, why didn't he mention any power decrease ?

No, that's what you're assuming happened. There is no indication that the absorbees power was added on to his as well as there is no indication that the absorbee power wasn't added on to his. It could easily be multiplications or derivatives of the individuals power.

Considering there is no indication that it's more than an addition, plus the fact that Boo didn't absorb all the people he could, it's very unlikely it'd be multiplications.

It is more likely he was forced to absorb him. If the Kaioshin posed no threat he would have killed him like the other two.

That's your imagination, but you're not in Boo's head.

The fact that Pure Boo absorbed the strongest is enough of a reason to believe the South Kaioshin's strength was the real deal.

If so, why didn't Kibitoshin mention his colleague's feat ?

But there is nothing to suggest he did try either. We can only make assumptions.

What you've just quoted gave reasons why it's more than likely he tried.

I really hate when people bring up the Z-sword. It's made very apparent in the series that what you can lift =/= power level.

Yet East Kaioshin is convinced Gohan can lift the Z-sword only based on his power level. I guess strength is somewhat proportional to power level.

Me, I like to assume that the sword was enchanted against the Kaioshin, because of all the hints that the Southern Supreme Kai is really powerful.

That's not what Kaioshin assumed since he thought Gohan could pull out the Z-sword because he was strong, not because he wasn't a kaioshin. And there is no hints South Kaioshin is really strong. All we know is that he's the strongest kaioshin.

I kind of disagree with this. People are tempted to refer to genki as literal energy, but it's less tangible than that. Asking if someone is genki is the same as asking if they're in high spirits, motivated, full of life, etc--it's a feeling, much like yuuki and shoki.

We're talking about Dragon Ball, a world where characters can make ki balls and energy waves. It's not like in real life.

These three metaphysical sources of strength (as well as others that Toriyama may not have listed) make up your total spiritual energy.

A frame of mind can inhibit or disinhibit your strength, but it is not strength in itself.

[Draken]

I can rebut most of the arguments you made using your own logic regarding ki and its components: How do you know? You can imagine, but you're not in Toriyama's mind.

[Rocketman]

Literally any option would have been better than what they went with. The Spirit Bomb plan is born of drama, not necessity or reason.

[rereboy]

Genki is quite literally vitality, while yuuki is bravery, and shouki is being in your right mind. Its as metaphysical as the other two and all three are what Ki is made of. And without any one of them, a person has no usable Ki.

Of course, all of these terms are included into the concept of Ki. But I say it again, ki is spiritual force. You don't seem to understand that genki belongs to the "force" part while the two others belong to the "spirit" dimension. You're confusing things.

You're thinking of Genki like its some sort of palpable energy, like electricity, while the other two merely guide or focus that energy. It's not. Its merely vitality. An abstract concept which is as abstract as the other two components of Ki. All three of them are a "force" on themselves but only together can they be used. And Ki itself is an abstract concept of a kind of force or energy that can be achieved when vitality, courage and mind work together.

[Bussani]

Of course, all of these terms are included into the concept of Ki. But I say it again, ki is spiritual force. You don't seem to understand that genki belongs to the "force" part while the two others belong to the "spirit" dimension. You're confusing things.

How can you accuse others of "confusing things" when you have nothing to back up what you're saying? All you're doing is giving your opinion.

"Spiritual force", to me, means a force that is spiritual, not something that's part spiritual and part force.

We're talking about Dragon Ball, a world where characters can make ki balls and energy waves. It's not like in real life.

"The word could mean something different because it's fiction" isn't a very convincing argument. It doesn't prove you right or others wrong. And since Toriyama said in the interview itself that the word genki is well known, I don't see why he would be using it in a fictionalized way.

A frame of mind can inhibit or disinhibit your strength, but it is not strength in itself.

I don't see why it can't be.

[dprez]

Like it was said before, bringing Gohan or Gotenks in to fight Boo would be what most logical people like us would do, but these are saiyans. They live for battle and the rush it gives them.

Vegeta wanted it that way. He was surely annoyed at the stupid weak worthless earthlings, so his plan to have them save themselves for a change makes sense. Out of universe, It's obviously just for plot and suspense, but in-universe there is reasoning behind it. Vegeta is a sly one.

[Amuro Ray]

Because they couldn't, it's really that simple.

[rereboy]

Because they couldn't, it's really that simple.

- Kibitoshin teleports to Earth, grabs Gohan and Gotenks and teleports to the Kaioshin Realm.
- They use Porunga's last wish to bring Gohan and Gotenks to the fight.

[Zephyr]

Because they couldn't, it's really that simple.

- Kibitoshin teleports to Earth, grabs Gohan and Gotenks and teleports to the Kaioshin Realm.
- They use Porunga's last wish to bring Gohan and Gotenks to the fight.

Add the fact that it was suggested by Goku, and dismissed by Vegeta because "hurr earthlings save themselves for once".

[Pan-Pan]

"The word could mean something different because it's fiction" isn't a very convincing argument.

You misunderstood. Sorry, I meant that in Dragon Ball, that's exactly what there is : literal tangible energy. Well, of course, in real life, when people talk about genki, they don't ask you how powerful your ki balls are.

You're thinking of Genki like its some sort of palpable energy, like electricity, while the other two merely guide or focus that energy. It's not. Its merely vitality. An abstract concept which is as abstract as the other two components of Ki. All three of them are a "force" on themselves but only together can they be used. And Ki itself is an abstract concept of a kind of force or energy that can be achieved when vitality, courage and mind work together.

Vitality is energy intensity of the body. That's why only genki is also called energy in the quote below :

When it comes to battle, the most important thing is ki size, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki; could also be translated as "true character"] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.

Note 11: Genki and yuuki, shouki
The word “energy” [genki; also “health”, “vigor”, etc] is well known, but if you had an illness [byouki], would you not have energy? That’s difficult to answer. There are some people who have a healthy body but no energy, but there are also some people who are full of energy even when ill. What’s more, even with people who have about the same amount of power, there are some who, when attacked by Piccolo Daimao for instance, will stand firm and tough it out, while others will run away trembling in fear. If you think this way, you might understand how different kinds of “ki” are very important in battle. In the world of Chinese kenpo disciplines such as Tai Chi, much importance is placed on the training and control of ki.

Bussani, you'll notice the guy said that a brave man and a coward have the "same amount of power", so, basically, courage is not strength.

Vegeta wanted it that way. He was surely annoyed at the stupid weak worthless earthlings, so his plan to have them save themselves for a change makes sense.

His goal is still to destroy Boo. The fact he doesn't like the Earthlings isn't a reason to abandon the easy way out.

I'm still waiting for an in-universe logical reason to why Goku approved Vegeta's decision.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm still waiting for an in-universe logical reason to why Goku approved Vegeta's decision.

Goku had spent the majority of the Buu Arc trying to get the point across that he would not always be there to save everybody, and it was time to pass the torch. Goku would probably think that letting the people of Earth factor into defeating Buu would be a good step in this direction. Just a thought.

[Kaboom]

Gotenks and Gohan already had their chances and screwed it up. Odds are they would get themselves absorbed again or something if Boo were to find himself at a disadvantage to them. Any plan that's carried out by Goku and Vegeta would be more reliable than bringing in Gohan or Gotenks.

[DBZAOTA482]

I'm still waiting for an in-universe logical reason to why Goku approved Vegeta's decision.

Goku had spent the majority of the Buu Arc trying to get the point across that he would not always be there to save everybody, and it was time to pass the torch. Goku would probably think that letting the people of Earth factor into defeating Buu would be a good step in this direction. Just a thought.

Ehhh... It's made pointless in the end because Goku is the one who picks up all the slack and he has Shenlong erase everyone's memory of Majin Boo.

But what would you expect from the Majin Boo Saga?

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm still waiting for an in-universe logical reason to why Goku approved Vegeta's decision.

Goku had spent the majority of the Buu Arc trying to get the point across that he would not always be there to save everybody, and it was time to pass the torch. Goku would probably think that letting the people of Earth factor into defeating Buu would be a good step in this direction. Just a thought.

Ehhh... It's made pointless in the end because Goku is the one who picks up all the slack and he has Shenlong erase everyone's memory of Majin Boo.

But what would you expect from the Majin Boo Saga?

Yeah, but they didn't know that they were going to make that wish at the time. I'm not saying that this is what was going through Goku's head, just throwing out an idea.
Maybe he didn't want to risk embarassing Vegeta by having Gotenks and Gohan show him up?

[Rocketman]

Gotenks and Gohan already had their chances

This, but in a narrative sense. Same reason they don't form Vegetto again (or form Gogeta) even though he's indisputably stronger than Kid Buu. Same reason Vegeta wasn't a FPSS at the Cell Games.

[Storm]

Gotenks and Gohan already had their chances and screwed it up. Odds are they would get themselves absorbed again or something if Boo were to find himself at a disadvantage to them. Any plan that's carried out by Goku and Vegeta would be more reliable than bringing in Gohan or Gotenks.

Yeah, this is what I've always gone with. Especially with Gohan, who made the same mistake against Cell AND Buu. He does not have a good track record fighting the bad guys.