King Vegeta and Bardock

[Draken]

I don´t remember where ( not DB wikia or anything like that ) but, I read somewhere long ago that King Vegeta had a battle power of 17,000.

That's way too high to make sense.

Why?? ¨Daizenshuu 7/Chouzenshuu 4's bio for King Vegeta describes him as the strongest Saiyan at the time of their planet's destruction; Vegeta says in the Freeza arc that he surpassed his father while still a child, but going by this he didn't reach that milestone until after his father's death¨

Mmm the Freeza arc Vegeta statement for me is not very specific. How could kid Vegeta surpass his father when the King was alive and the strongest Saiyan at that time? Saiyan Arc Vegeta´s battle power was 18,000. Bardock battle power was 10,000. Does not seem so illogical that King Vegeta has 17,000. Come on, he was the King and a High Class Saiyan.

We never see kid Vegeta with his father if I remember correctly. We never see kid Vegeta with a scouter. Kid Vegeta beat all the Saibamans ( 1,200 battle power ). Kid Vegeta kill an entire Alien ( maybe very weak Aliens ) Planet. Nappa in that time has no 4,000 power battle.

Bardock is 10 thousand because he's said to be approaching King Vegeta, making King Vegeta around 10,000. Unless you think a 7 thousand gap is "approaching" at these early levels.

[Gaffer Tape]

So King Vegeta is a Funi invention? Did the Daizenshuu adopt the name?

Phew. No. Not in the least. Besides the fact that the Daizenshuu were put out when Dragon Ball was only first being licensed by FUNimation, it almost stops my heart to think they'd incorporate something from them.

I assume you're referring to Herms saying that FUNimation changed a line about Bardock's battle power to a line comparing him to King Vegeta. That's the only mention of him that was added that was not in the original. The name King Vegeta is an anime-only invention, as is his appearance. The Saiyan king is only mentioned once in the manga (when Freeza talks about how he kills him). You don't see him, and he's never given a name.

Bardock is 10 thousand because he's said to be approaching King Vegeta, making King Vegeta around 10,000. Unless you think a 7 thousand gap is "approaching" at these early levels.

Again, that's something FUNimation made up. No comparison to the king is given in the original dialogue.

[Herms]

I don´t remember where ( not DB wikia or anything like that ) but, I read somewhere long ago that King Vegeta had a battle power of 17,000.

The thing is, it's not like we look askance at the DB wikia here simply because they're the DB wikia. It's because they have a bad habit of making random, baseless statements (among other problems). That's the issue, and it's not limited to them. Any baseless statement is equivalent to any other baseless statement, whether it came from the DB wikia or not.

[MDSTSSJ]

I don´t remember where ( not DB wikia or anything like that ) but, I read somewhere long ago that King Vegeta had a battle power of 17,000.

The thing is, it's not like we look askance at the DB wikia here simply because they're the DB wikia. It's because they have a bad habit of making random, baseless statements (among other problems). That's the issue, and it's not limited to them. Any baseless statement is equivalent to any other baseless statement, whether it came from the DB wikia or not.

Yeah, you are right Herms!!

Although is not established, virtually 17,000 is not seem unreasonable for the King of the Saiyans.

[Tyro]

Although is not established, virtually 17,000 is not seem unreasonable for the King of the Saiyans.

Not unreasonable in the sense that it does fit between 10,000 and 18,000, but it's still improbable regardless.

Whether or not Vegeta surpassed the king before or after his death, we still know for a fact that it was when he was a kid.

Chapter: 296 (DBZ 102), P2.2-3, P3.1
Context: still talking about Freeza’s transformations
Vegeta: “Don’t be scared, he’s bluffing…he won’t change that much.”
Freeza: “Oh, is that right? Look vee—eery closely. This isn’t something you get to see very often. Even when I attacked Planet Vegeta, where the Saiyans lived, and fought with the king, I was able to win without any need to transform whatsoever…Vegeta…your father wasn’t anything special.”
Vegeta: “Chih…! Don’t feel too good about yourself over that…I already surpassed the king’s power back when I was a kid…!”

Vegeta was born in 732 and Goku was born in 737 making Vegeta 5 years older than Goku and thus 5 years old when Freeza destroyed planet Vegeta. Not counting Goku not aging during death, he'd be 24 years old when he fought Freeza and therefore Vegeta is 29 years old. Vegeta called Gohan a "brat" during the Tenkaichi Budokai (referring to when Gohan was 11 years old) so it's safe to say that's where he'd still consider himself a kid, too, probably. Maybe extending that definition until he was 18 or so? Even so, that leaves 11 years of time he spent battling on the front lines, according to Freeza, and I doubt his battle power only marginally increased during that time until he hit his established 18,000 fighting Goku and co.

Based on this I'd say the King was maybe 11,000-12,000? Otherwise Vegeta barely got stronger.

[TheGmGoken]

Although is not established, virtually 17,000 is not seem unreasonable for the King of the Saiyans.

Not unreasonable in the sense that it does fit between 10,000 and 18,000, but it's still improbable regardless.

Whether or not Vegeta surpassed the king before or after his death, we still know for a fact that it was when he was a kid.

Chapter: 296 (DBZ 102), P2.2-3, P3.1
Context: still talking about Freeza’s transformations
Vegeta: “Don’t be scared, he’s bluffing…he won’t change that much.”
Freeza: “Oh, is that right? Look vee—eery closely. This isn’t something you get to see very often. Even when I attacked Planet Vegeta, where the Saiyans lived, and fought with the king, I was able to win without any need to transform whatsoever…Vegeta…your father wasn’t anything special.”
Vegeta: “Chih…! Don’t feel too good about yourself over that…I already surpassed the king’s power back when I was a kid…!”

Vegeta was born in 732 and Goku was born in 737 making Vegeta 5 years older than Goku and thus 5 years old when Freeza destroyed planet Vegeta. Not counting Goku not aging during death, he'd be 24 years old when he fought Freeza and therefore Vegeta is 29 years old. Vegeta called Gohan a "brat" during the Tenkaichi Budokai (referring to when Gohan was 11 years old) so it's safe to say that's where he'd still consider himself a kid, too, probably. Maybe extending that definition until he was 18 or so? Even so, that leaves 11 years of time he spent battling on the front lines, according to Freeza, and I doubt his battle power only marginally increased during that time until he hit his established 18,000 fighting Goku and co.

Based on this I'd say the King was maybe 11,000-12,000? Otherwise Vegeta barely got stronger.

Sir. Gohan was 9 during the Cell games. 10 if you count HBTC like the anime did.

[Tyro]

Sir. Gohan was 9 during the Cell games. 10 if you count HBTC like the anime did.

Double check the timeline. He's 10 after coming out of the RoSaT but his birthday happens before the Cell Games begin, making him biologically 11 years old. This is according to the manga and Daizenshuu BTW.

Edit:

May, Age 757
--Son Goku and Chi-Chi’s first son is born. Goku names him “Son Gohan”, after his adoptive grandfather. As a Saiyan/Earthling hybrid, Gohan has a tail and is gifted with vast dormant power.
[Ref: Date from Daizenshuu 7. In Chapter 196 Gohan says he’s 4, so this is that long before 761. Placing his birthday in May could refer to DBZ Episode 171, where Gohan celebrates his birthday before the Cell Games, which are in May. In that episode Gohan actually says it’s not his birthday: Chi-Chi just wants to celebrate it because Gohan got a year older in the Room of Spirit and Time, turning 11 (though this still wouldn’t rule out his birthday being during some other time in May). It may also be based on the fact that at the start of the Boo arc, the narrator says that Gohan is 16, though since the Boo arc is in 774 (13 years after Raditz’s arrival), Gohan should turn 17 that year. So him still being 16 would mean that his birthday is later in the year then when he first goes to Orange Star High School, which is in April. In Chapter 204 Vegeta notes how mixing Saiyan and Earthling blood creates a powerful hybrid, and Daizenshuu 4 somewhat expands on this by saying the two races’ genes have an “extraordinarily good compatibility”.]

So Daizenshuu #7 does mention his birthday is in May but that may be based on the anime or anime guidebooks. Either way, we can say for certain that he's definitely 10 in the manga (4 + 1 + 1.712 + 3 + .875 = 10.587).

Anywho, the point remains about Vegeta.

[TheGmGoken]

Sir. Gohan was 9 during the Cell games. 10 if you count HBTC like the anime did.

Double check the timeline. He's 10 after coming out of the RoSaT but his birthday happens before the Cell Games begin, making him biologically 11 years old. This is according to the manga and Daizenshuu BTW.

Edit:

May, Age 757
--Son Goku and Chi-Chi’s first son is born. Goku names him “Son Gohan”, after his adoptive grandfather. As a Saiyan/Earthling hybrid, Gohan has a tail and is gifted with vast dormant power.
[Ref: Date from Daizenshuu 7. In Chapter 196 Gohan says he’s 4, so this is that long before 761. Placing his birthday in May could refer to DBZ Episode 171, where Gohan celebrates his birthday before the Cell Games, which are in May. In that episode Gohan actually says it’s not his birthday: Chi-Chi just wants to celebrate it because Gohan got a year older in the Room of Spirit and Time, turning 11 (though this still wouldn’t rule out his birthday being during some other time in May). It may also be based on the fact that at the start of the Boo arc, the narrator says that Gohan is 16, though since the Boo arc is in 774 (13 years after Raditz’s arrival), Gohan should turn 17 that year. So him still being 16 would mean that his birthday is later in the year then when he first goes to Orange Star High School, which is in April. In Chapter 204 Vegeta notes how mixing Saiyan and Earthling blood creates a powerful hybrid, and Daizenshuu 4 somewhat expands on this by saying the two races’ genes have an “extraordinarily good compatibility”.]

So Daizenshuu #7 does mention his birthday is in May but that may be based on the anime or anime guidebooks. Either way, we can say for certain that he's definitely 10 in the manga (4 + 1 + 1.712 + 3 + .875 = 10.587).

Anywho, the point remains about Vegeta.

As I said he's 9 not counting hbtc. Then he's 10 counting it. He's still not 11 through

[Tyro]

As I said he's 9 not counting hbtc. Then he's 10 counting it. He's still not 11 through

Those are rough estimates based only on the years skipped and does not include extra months and days picked up here and there. Someone with more expertise than me is going to have to give a proper answer to where the ax falls on Gohan's biological age but it's obvious that he's somewhere between 10.5 and 11 during this time. You could be right, sure. It rounds up. Regardless, the whole point of mentioning the numbers was to indicate what Vegeta considered a "brat" which could also be interpreted as "kid"/"child." So whether 10.5 or 11, Vegeta might still consider himself a kid until at least that point, maybe until 18 years of age or so.

[TheGmGoken]

As I said he's 9 not counting hbtc. Then he's 10 counting it. He's still not 11 through

Those are rough estimates based only on the years skipped and does not include extra months and days picked up here and there. Someone with more expertise than me is going to have to give a proper answer to where the ax falls on Gohan's biological age but it's obvious that he's somewhere between 10.5 and 11 during this time. You could be right, sure. It rounds up. Regardless, the whole point of mentioning the numbers was to indicate what Vegeta considered a "brat" which could also be interpreted as "kid"/"child." So whether 10.5 or 11, Vegeta might still consider himself a kid until at least that point, maybe until 18 years of age or so.

10.5 is still 10 through =/. 10 is 10 till you're 11.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

As I said he's 9 not counting hbtc. Then he's 10 counting it. He's still not 11 through

Those are rough estimates based only on the years skipped and does not include extra months and days picked up here and there. Someone with more expertise than me is going to have to give a proper answer to where the ax falls on Gohan's biological age but it's obvious that he's somewhere between 10.5 and 11 during this time. You could be right, sure. It rounds up. Regardless, the whole point of mentioning the numbers was to indicate what Vegeta considered a "brat" which could also be interpreted as "kid"/"child." So whether 10.5 or 11, Vegeta might still consider himself a kid until at least that point, maybe until 18 years of age or so.

Old post of mine:

• 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai held May 7th, Age 756
• Gohan is conceived late July/early August, Age 756
• Gohan is born very early May, Age 757
• Gohan turns 1 in early May, Age 758
• Gohan turns 2 in early May, Age 759
• Gohan turns 3 in early May, Age 760
• Gohan turns 4 in early May, Age 761
• Raditz invades Earth on November 28th, 761
• Gohan turns 5 in early May, Age 762
• Vegeta and Nappa arrive on Earth on November 3, 762 Age
• Everyone lands on Namek on December 18th, 762 Age
• Almost everyone lives through Namek's destruction on December 24th, 762 Age
• Gohan turns 6 in early May, Age 763
• Kuririn and Yamcha are revived on May 3rd, Age 763
• Tenshinhan and Chaozu are revived on September 10th, Age 763
• Gohan turns 7 in early May, Age 764
• Goku returns to Earth in August, Age 764
• Gohan turns 8 in early May, Age 765
• Gohan turns 9 in early May, Age 766
• Gohan turns 10 in early May, Age 767
• The 24th Tenkaichi Budoukai is held on May 7th, Age 767
• The Jinzoningen appear on May 12th, Age 767
• Goku and Gohan enter the RoSaT for less than 24 hours (a year inside) on May 16th, Age 767
• Gohan exists the RoSaT still at age 10 on May 17th, Age 767, but is closer to age 11 physically
• The Cell Games are held on May 26th, Age 767
• Gohan turns 11 in early May, Age 768, but is closer to age 12 physically
• Gohan turns 12 in early May, Age 769, but is closer to age 13 physically
• Gohan turns 13 in early May, Age 770, but is closer to age 14 physically
• Gohan turns 14 in early May, Age 771, but is closer to age 15 physically
• Gohan turns 15 in early May, Age 772, but is closer to age 16 physically
• Gohan turns 16 in early May, Age 773, but is closer to age 17 physically
• Gohan enters Orange Star High and has wacky adventures with Videl as Saiyaman during April, Age 774
• Gohan turns 17 in early May, Age 774, but is closer to age 18 physically
• The 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai is held on May 7th, Age 774
• Buu is released and builds a house on May 7th, Age 774
• Satan befriends Buu and Gotenks ego is born May 8th, Age 774
• Vegetto decides killing Buu is too boring and defuses of his own free will, Buu blows shit up and then dies due to an infection of Vegetto's invincible ki on May 9th, Age 774

*** I would like to note that this age progression list still works with the Daizenshuu's October 12th date for Raditz' arrival, for those who want to deal with the books printed facts (wrong as they may be). But, as Herms has said, that date is impossible according to the manga's narration of Nappa and Vegeta arriving before a year has passed, so I used his fixed date from the "Stronger Loving Timeline".

[TheMightyOzaru]

I don´t remember where ( not DB wikia or anything like that ) but, I read somewhere long ago that King Vegeta had a battle power of 17,000.

That's way too high to make sense.

Why?? ¨Daizenshuu 7/Chouzenshuu 4's bio for King Vegeta describes him as the strongest Saiyan at the time of their planet's destruction; Vegeta says in the Freeza arc that he surpassed his father while still a child, but going by this he didn't reach that milestone until after his father's death¨

Mmm the Freeza arc Vegeta statement for me is not very specific. How could kid Vegeta surpass his father when the King was alive and the strongest Saiyan at that time? Saiyan Arc Vegeta´s battle power was 18,000. Bardock battle power was 10,000. Does not seem so illogical that King Vegeta has 17,000. Come on, he was the King and a High Class Saiyan.

We never see kid Vegeta with his father if I remember correctly. We never see kid Vegeta with a scouter. Kid Vegeta beat all the Saibamans ( 1,200 battle power ). Kid Vegeta kill an entire Alien ( maybe very weak Aliens ) Planet. Nappa in that time has no 4,000 power battle.

He can be the strongest at the time of Vegeta's destruction and not be ahead of everyone by such a large margin. Vegeta says he surpasses his father as a child, it's never specified when. It could have easily been after the planet's destruction. There is no way he is 1,000 away from Vegeta's adult BP. I peg him at 13,000 and that's really as high as it should go as far as I'm concerned.

[Tyro]

10.5 is still 10 through =/. 10 is 10 till you're 11.

You're killin' me, Smalls.

*List*

That's very well put-together. Do the dates primarily come from the Daizenshuu or did you draw your information from elsewhere? I've been absent from this forum for awhile so any details on how you had to tweak it to make it function would be cool.

[mister yummy]

That Gohan's Age list seems flawed. His birthday is somewhere between May 17 and May 26, as they celebrate it in the 10 days before the Cell ames. This means he turned 10 or 11 shortly after entering the Room of Spirit and Time, and 11 or 12 shortly after leaving. I say or, because it seems to me he should have been born a year later than you place him.

[Dark Red Z]

I akways saw Bardock and Vegeta Sr. as roughly equal in power level, just in prince&pauper-like opposite sides of the class spectrum.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

That Gohan's Age list seems flawed. His birthday is somewhere between May 17 and May 26, as they celebrate it in the 10 days before the Cell ames. This means he turned 10 or 11 shortly after entering the Room of Spirit and Time, and 11 or 12 shortly after leaving. I say or, because it seems to me he should have been born a year later than you place him.

Nah. Gohan's birthday has to be earlier in the month, even including the contradictory birthday filler in DBZ Episode 171...

Gohan was born in May of AGE 757. So by May of AGE 767, when the Jinzoningen attack, he should be turning 10. Goku and Gohan enter the RoSaT on May 16th and leave on the 17th, but they don't spend the full 24 hours inside; instead they only spend around 11 months. The filler is about his 11th birthday and Chi Chi wants to celebrate because Gohan got another year older while inside the RoSaT, meaning he was already 10 and turned 11 while inside the room (for the anime at least). But, because Gohan reminds her that it's not actually his birthday during the episode, it needs to be before before the 17th no matter how you slice it.

Also, Gohan can't be born a year later, otherwise he wouldn't be 4 when Raditz arrives.

[TheGmGoken]

That Gohan's Age list seems flawed. His birthday is somewhere between May 17 and May 26, as they celebrate it in the 10 days before the Cell ames. This means he turned 10 or 11 shortly after entering the Room of Spirit and Time, and 11 or 12 shortly after leaving. I say or, because it seems to me he should have been born a year later than you place him.

Nah. Gohan's birthday has to be earlier in the month, even including the contradictory birthday filler in DBZ Episode 171...

Gohan was born in May of AGE 757. So by May of AGE 767, when the Jinzoningen attack, he should be turning 10. Goku and Gohan enter the RoSaT on May 16th and leave on the 17th, but they don't spend the full 24 hours inside; instead they only spend around 11 months. The filler is about his 11th birthday and Chi Chi wants to celebrate because Gohan got another year older while inside the RoSaT, meaning he was already 10 and turned 11 while inside the room (for the anime at least). But, because Gohan reminds her that it's not actually his birthday during the episode, it needs to be before before the 17th no matter how you slice it.

Also, Gohan can't be born a year later, otherwise he wouldn't be 4 when Raditz arrives.

But the issue is. 7 years later he's 16 and possible turning 17. 10 + 7 = 17. 9 + 7 = 16. It fits. I know Toriyama was bad at math but damn. I sure he knows how to count on fingers

[mister yummy]

Wasn't Gohan really 3 when Radditz arrived, and 4 is a dubism, or am i mistaken?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Wasn't Gohan really 3 when Radditz arrived, and 4 is a dubism, or am i mistaken?

No, he was 4. 5 was the dubism.

[TheMightyOzaru]

But the issue is. 7 years later he's 16 and possible turning 17. 10 + 7 = 17. 9 + 7 = 16. It fits. I know Toriyama was bad at math but damn. I sure he knows how to count on fingers

Gohan turns 11 in early May, Age 768, but is closer to age 12 physically
Gohan turns 12 in early May, Age 769, but is closer to age 13 physically
Gohan turns 13 in early May, Age 770, but is closer to age 14 physically
Gohan turns 14 in early May, Age 771, but is closer to age 15 physically
Gohan turns 15 in early May, Age 772, but is closer to age 16 physically
Gohan turns 16 in early May, Age 773, but is closer to age 17 physically
Gohan enters Orange Star High and has wacky adventures with Videl as Saiyaman during April, Age 774
Gohan turns 17 in early May, Age 774, but is closer to age 18 physically
The 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai is held on May 7th, Age 774

7 years have passed. He merely turns 17 around the time of the Budokai.