Is Goku a Bad Father?

[ABED]

He gained an achievement for the son he just met and a protector of Earth while he's gone. And like I said, given the choice between finishing off a villain himself when he could and throwing his son out to the wolves without any prep for little gain, he chose to send his son. So it's completely in-character going by the only ever time he was in a situation like this. Hell, at least in the Buu Saga he didn't help Buu before sending Gotenks off.

He couldn't defeat Cell. Gohan wasn't let in on Goku's plan but he did have prep, that's what they were training for in the RST.

THere was nothing gained by lying. He already told Piccolo that it was better for the Earth to be defended by the living. Goku was written out of character, plain and simple.

I think you are stretching it by claiming a lie of omission. I do think he was wrong in not telling Gohan, but he never said he could win that fight. He just simply told them Cell would be defeated.

Cell wasn't going to kill Gohan, he was explicit that he wanted to test himself and draw out Gohan's power. Could he have? Maybe, but Goku was still not far away and if he got the impression Cell would've killed Gohan, do you honestly think Goku would've stood by and watched as Gohan died right in front of him?

[RandomGuy96]

He gained an achievement for the son he just met and a protector of Earth while he's gone. And like I said, given the choice between finishing off a villain himself when he could and throwing his son out to the wolves without any prep for little gain, he chose to send his son. So it's completely in-character going by the only ever time he was in a situation like this. Hell, at least in the Buu Saga he didn't help Buu before sending Gotenks off.

He couldn't defeat Cell. Gohan wasn't let in on Goku's plan but he did have prep, that's what they were training for in the RST.

THere was nothing gained by lying. He already told Piccolo that it was better for the Earth to be defended by the living. Goku was written out of character, plain and simple.

I meant that he didn't prepare Gohan for the role. He at least told Goten what was going on. And he THOUGHT he could beat Cell, since he thought that the power Cell showed against him was his full power (kind of like Buu), and had the opportunity to take a senzu and team up with Gohan and the others. He was wrong, but that does nothing to change his intentions.

I'm pretty sure Toriyama knows what's "in character" for Goku better than you do. He lied because he wanted to make it look like Gotenks was necessary, and didn't want everyone to (correctly) think he's an asshole for sending his seven year old son off to do something he can do himself. Honesty has never been one of Goku's defining traits, you're simply assuming that it's out of character for him to lie ever. Yet you're apparently thinking that sending his son off against a monster he could beat himself IS in character, which is the asshole thing, so I don't really see any reason to make a distinction here.

Cell wasn't going to kill Gohan, he was explicit that he wanted to test himself and draw out Gohan's power. Could he have? Maybe, but Goku was still not far away and if he got the impression Cell would've killed Gohan, do you honestly think Goku would've stood by and watched as Gohan died right in front of him?

Say Goku's little plan is a little off, and Cell doesn't do one little thing- or hell, assume Satan isn't there and Gohan doesn't see 16 die (Satan has to salvage a lot of Goku's fuck-ups, doesn't he?). What happens then? Even suppressed, Cell was too fast for Gohan to touch and was just beating on him. Eventually, Gohan just wouldn't be able to take any more.

And his plan is still stupidly overcomplicated compared to just teaming up with everyone. But no, he instead helps Cell and watches as his son gets the shit beaten out of him. You say that he wasn't being 'damaged', but being punched in the face repeatedly and crushed is still agonizing, and would've killed him eventually anyway.

I think he wouldn't realize what's going on until too late. And if Cell actually powered up, there's nothing Goku or anyone else could do anyway.

[ABED]

No, he thought Gohan could defeat Cell because he felt Gohan's overwhelming power in the room of spirit and time.

I'm pretty sure Toriyama knows what's "in character" for Goku better than you do.

You give Toriyama too much credit. I don't think he knows where he's going with his stories most of the time, it's VERY evident in the Buu arc.

Even after Cell starts showing his true power, Goku still believes in his son, but you don't care about that. "Goku's an asshole who doesn't care about anything!" If Gohan was in true danger, he would've stepped in.

Goku is honest. It's not what defines him, but it is something he does through the stories. "He lied because he wanted to make it look like Gotenks was necessary, and didn't want everyone to (correctly) think he's an asshole for sending his seven year old son off to do something he can do himself" Didn't stop him from letting Gero create the Cyborgs, and since when has he ever cared that much about what people thought of him?

[RandomGuy96]

No, he thought Gohan could defeat Cell because he felt Gohan's overwhelming power in the room of spirit and time.

I'm pretty sure Toriyama knows what's "in character" for Goku better than you do.
You give Toriyama too much credit. I don't think he knows where he's going with his stories most of the time, it's VERY evident in the Buu arc.

Goku is honest. It's not what defines him, but it is something he does through the stories. "He lied because he wanted to make it look like Gotenks was necessary, and didn't want everyone to (correctly) think he's an asshole for sending his seven year old son off to do something he can do himself" Didn't stop him from letting Gero create the Cyborgs, and since when has he ever cared that much about what people thought of him?

Yeah. And...?

Okay, so you > Toriyama in terms of understanding the characters Toriyama wrote. Gotcha.

That's just a trend. His defining characteristic was never honesty, so it's not out of character if he lies. His lie has a reason and works with Goku's own screwed up logic, and he has done things like just obscure important information before.

Those two aren't the same situation. Also, Goku has been in the Otherworld for seven years. We don't know how he changed.

But then, you keep thinking that the asshole things he does are in character, so I don't know what the lie even has to do with anything at this point. For Goku, fighting and fun > his family, friends, and the universe.

Also, Toriyama basically said Goku was a bad father, so...

[Kid Buu]

Didn't Goku regret sending Gohan to fight Cell? He asked for the Senzu Beans but Cell quickly stole them off him before Goku could eat one?

[ABED]

I'm not saying I'm better than Toriyama, just that he didn't plan so there are gaps in his logic.

The lie only works if Goku has shown himself to be dishonest, otherwise it's something that comes completely out of left field. Honesty doesn't have to be a defining characteristic for it to be out of character to contradict that.

Fighting is more important to him than his family, it's his passion in life, but he doesn't want his family to die. His friends and family are part of the way he enjoys life.

I brought up the cyborgs because while they are different they have something in common, he wanted something that others might have disliked.

Why would he fear being thought an asshole so much that he would lie?

[RandomGuy96]

I'm not saying I'm better than Toriyama, just that he didn't plan so there are gaps in his logic.

The lie only works if Goku has shown himself to be dishonest, otherwise it's something that comes completely out of left field. Honesty doesn't have to be a defining characteristic for it to be out of character to contradict that.

Fighting is more important to him than his family, it's his passion in life, but he doesn't want his family to die. His friends and family are part of the way he enjoys life.

I brought up the cyborgs because while they are different they have something in common, he wanted something that others might have disliked.

Why would he fear being thought an asshole so much that he would lie?

There is no gap in logic. That is just how Toriyama, the guy who writes the story and created Goku, chose to characterize Goku.

Just because someone hasn't lied before doesn't mean they're totally incapable of ever lying. He was just trying to save face. And, for the third time, I don't really care about the lie. The important thing is him sending off Gotenks to fight where he could've succeeded on his own.

Okay, so fighting > his family. That's pretty much all I needed to hear. How can you possibly call him a good father if he loves that more than his family?

EDIT: Also, Gohan wasn't being pushed to the brink of death by Cell, but he wasn't shrugging anything off. He had a bunch of bruises, was bleeding from multiple places, had a gash in his head, and was obviously in pain.

[ABED]

I'm not saying I'm better than Toriyama, just that he didn't plan so there are gaps in his logic.

The lie only works if Goku has shown himself to be dishonest, otherwise it's something that comes completely out of left field. Honesty doesn't have to be a defining characteristic for it to be out of character to contradict that.

Fighting is more important to him than his family, it's his passion in life, but he doesn't want his family to die. His friends and family are part of the way he enjoys life.

I brought up the cyborgs because while they are different they have something in common, he wanted something that others might have disliked.

Why would he fear being thought an asshole so much that he would lie?

There is no gap in logic. That is just how Toriyama, the guy who writes the story and created Goku, chose to characterize Goku.

Just because someone hasn't lied before doesn't mean they're totally incapable of ever lying. He was just trying to save face. And, for the third time, I don't really care about the lie. The important thing is him sending off Gotenks to fight where he could've succeeded on his own.

Okay, so fighting > his family. That's pretty much all I needed to hear. How can you possibly call him a good father if he loves that more than his family?

Save face in front of Piccolo? Has he ever done that? He already admitted that even if he could it was better for the living to take care of themselves.

I care about the lie because it's inconsistent with his character. There was nothing to gain from it, it has no precident. It's out of character. He chose to characterize him in a way he never did before because he didn't think the story through. Why would Goku fight Vegeta and take that beating and let Buu out to leave it to his kids? What about Goku from the manga to that point would lead you to believe he would ever do that?

I didn't say Goku was a great father or even a good father. He's not a terrible one either. His sons can take care of themselves, which is what a parent is there for, to teach them how to fend for themselves. The time I had a problem with him is when he didn't let Gohan in on his plan. It was stupid, and seemed to be there to impress some audience. I don't see the logic in it, and there's no real explanation for it. I do think people's careers should take precident over families. In all honesty. It's the central activity of your life, and you can't depend upon others for your happiness. It makes you a leech. It's essentially his career. He doesn't get paid, but it's how's productive. He doesn't need money, he can already provide for his family and Gohan was self sufficient when Goku wasn't around.

[Kid Buu]

In addition to lying about not being able to beat Fat Buu, he also lied about not being able to beat Majin Vegeta.

[ABED]

In addition to lying about not being able to beat Fat Buu, he also lied about not being able to beat Majin Vegeta.

Neither seem like Goku. It's more likely that Toriyama hadn't thought of SS3 when Goku fought Majin Vegeta.

[mAcChaos]

People always interpreted Goku's changed character in the Buu saga as a result of him being more desensitized after being dead for 7 years. If someone died, just wish them back, etc. He took a more distant view of things.

But as for his plan with Gohan, I always thought if Gohan knew what was going to happen it would be harder for him to get angry.

Besides, Gohan figured it out on his own anyway, and what did that change? Made no real difference as far as I saw.

[RandomGuy96]

I care about the lie because it's inconsistent with his character. There was nothing to gain from it, it has no precident. It's out of character. He chose to characterize him in a way he never did before because he didn't think the story through. Why would Goku fight Vegeta and take that beating and let Buu out to leave it to his kids? What about Goku from the manga to that point would lead you to believe he would ever do that?

The Buu Saga, where the author of the manga and creator of the character chose to characterize him as someone who would do this.

I do think people's careers should take precident over families. In all honesty. It's the central activity of your life, and you can't depend upon others for your happiness. It makes you a leech. It's essentially his career. He doesn't get paid, but it's how's productive. He doesn't need money, he can already provide for his family and Gohan was self sufficient when Goku wasn't around.

It's not a career; it's basically a hobby, at least for Goku it is. Him liking fighting isn't really a problem, the problem is that he completely puts it above everything else and gives zero shits about his family if they get in the way of his fun. He's put having a good fight over the safety of his sons more than once;

When he gave Piccolo a free shot after declining Kami's help.

When he spared Piccolo.

When he spared Vegeta.

When he fought Freeza.

When he fought Pure Buu.

He's simply a terrible person.

[DBZAOTA482]

I care about the lie because it's inconsistent with his character. There was nothing to gain from it, it has no precident. It's out of character. He chose to characterize him in a way he never did before because he didn't think the story through. Why would Goku fight Vegeta and take that beating and let Buu out to leave it to his kids? What about Goku from the manga to that point would lead you to believe he would ever do that?

The Buu Saga, where the author of the manga and creator of the character chose to characterize him as someone who would do this.

I do think people's careers should take precident over families. In all honesty. It's the central activity of your life, and you can't depend upon others for your happiness. It makes you a leech. It's essentially his career. He doesn't get paid, but it's how's productive. He doesn't need money, he can already provide for his family and Gohan was self sufficient when Goku wasn't around.

It's not a career; it's basically a hobby, at least for Goku it is. Him liking fighting isn't really a problem, the problem is that he completely puts it above everything else and gives zero shits about his family if they get in the way of his fun. He's put having a good fight over the safety of his sons more than once;

When he gave Piccolo a free shot after declining Kami's help.

When he spared Piccolo.

When he spared Vegeta.

When he fought Freeza.

When he fought Pure Buu.

He's simply a terrible person.

1. To be fair, Goku had to let Piccolo live. Sure he may have been happy at the prospect of having a new rival but he was clearly cognizant to the bigger picture as he himself said if Piccolo dies then Kami dies as well and the dragon ball would disappear, so his intentions there were a little pure than just "Imma gonna let you live so I can beat you up some more."

2. Can't defend this one. It was undeniably selfish and there's no excuse but Goku himself did acknowledge it was a selfish request and he does regret it later on.

3. Goku was lost with rage. Becoming SSJ for the first time made him a different person (Kaio-sama takes note of it himself).

4. Can't defend this one either.

Of course he's a terrible person. Most of everyone in Dragon Ball. They're either assholes or stupid beyond belief.

[Kamiccolo9]

Goku's biggest problem is that he doesn't know his kids. He assumes that Gohan is going to react like he himself would, he thrusts huge burdens on Goten and Trunks, just like was done to him at a young age, and thinks that because surely they must enjoy fighting as much as he does, that it is their time to shine. What he fails to realize is that Gohan is not a fighter at heart, and Goten, Trunks, and Gotenks are idiot kids that didn't have to fend for themselves their entire lives. Taken in this light, one can easily see Goku being okay with Gohan or Goten leaving their families to go become stronger; that's just how Goku thinks.

Some people just aren't meant to be parents. This isn't a criticism of Goku, just a fact. Goku is, at heart, a good person. This doesn't make him a good parent. Toriyama himself says that Goku is totally unfit to be a parent, so I don't see how we can really argue that he is a good one. Goku does what he can, given his experiences with a family, but he is totally unfit to be a father.

[ABED]

It didn't matter if Gohan was a fighter at heart, he was the only one who could defeat Cell. I'm not saying this just in defense of Goku, I'm criticizing Gohan. It doesn't matter that he didn't like to fight, he had to defend the world for their to be anything for him to study.

Goku's not a great father, but at least Gohan and Chichi can take care of themselves, and he doesn't stay away from them for extended periods out of spite.

Chichi isn't a great mother either, at least not to Gohan. She forces him to study, and doesn't seem to care about his happiness. She only seems to care about his success but in a very limited superficial way.

When did Goku say he regretted letting Vegeta live?

[Kid Buu]

Of course he's a terrible person. Most of everyone in Dragon Ball. They're either assholes or stupid beyond belief.

By the end of Z who would you say is an asshole besides Goku and maybe Vegeta?

[ABED]

If they are so terrible, why watch them?

[DBZAOTA482]

When did Goku say he regretted letting Vegeta live?

When the gang were heading to the Wukong Hospital Kaio-sama was talking to Goku on how he had underestimated Vegeta, and Goku realized he made a mistake.

[Kid Buu]

I don't think they are terrible. Goku's not a HORRIBLE father, I don't think he's a done anything as bad as sexually abusing his children or anything. But he's not really qualified to be a parent, he doesn't know much about family values. When he died he admitted he was never there for Chichi.

"Tell Mom that I'm sorry, I've been so selfish and given her hard times"
-Goku, 2:22

[ABED]

When did Goku say he regretted letting Vegeta live?

When the gang were heading to the Wukong Hospital Kaio-sama was talking to Goku on how he had underestimated Vegeta, and Goku realized he made a mistake.

I only have the Viz volumes and Goku just asks, "Did I make a mistake?" That can mean a lot besides regret. Is Viz's translation wrong?

I agree that Goku is a bad husband. Chichi shouldn't have married him the second he admitted that he thought marriage was food and told her he would marry her out of obligation.