T-Timelines?

[veshira]

Okay, so there are three known timelines in Dragonball, but there could be more. It's confusing and the possibilities are endless, but I'd like to bright up a comment by Cell and hopefully you, good forumers of Daizex, can help me figure out what the comment means. (Because trying to figure out timelines by myself hurt my brain. )

Cell says that luckily the micro-(nano-?)robots were able to take Freeza and King Cold's cells before Future Trunks killed them in his timeline. So, where did that Future Trunks come from? A fourth timeline, or a version of the third timeline (Cell's timeline) before he destroyed the androids (I assume with the remote control past Bulma made), and Cell awoke and killed him?

[The Tori-bot]

Okay, so there are three known timelines in Dragonball, but there could be more. It's confusing and the possibilities are endless, but I'd like to bright up a comment by Cell and hopefully you, good forumers of Daizex, can help me figure out what the comment means. (Because trying to figure out timelines by myself hurt my brain. )

Cell says that luckily the micro-(nano-?)robots were able to take Freeza and King Cold's cells before Future Trunks killed them in his timeline. So, where did that Future Trunks come from? A fourth timeline, or a version of the third timeline (Cell's timeline) before he destroyed the androids (I assume with the remote control past Bulma made), and Cell awoke and killed him?

Simple: [Extract from Viz Dragon Ball Z volume 15; original tankobon 31]

Cell: We were lucky that Freeza and his father came to Earth so we could take samples from them too. We could've added Trunks's cells to the line, but we had enough Saiyan samples.

Summary: Freeza and King Cold's cells were harvested when Trunks came to the heroes' timeline and killed them.

So, sorry to burst your bubble.

Then again, I could be wrong.

[_Jrinu_]

Well in Trunks' timeline, Frieza and King Cold were killed by Goku.

Trunks only stepped into battle because he didn't realize Goku would be able to get there in time.

I have done soo much thinking about the timelines, it's definatly my main topic.

The Time Lines

Original Timeline:
-Frieza and King Cold are killed by Goku.
-Earth enters a time of peace, until Goku is killed by the Lethal Heart Virus.
-Androids 17 & 18 (not 19 & 20) attack South City. All except Gohan are killed.
-Trunks begins training under Gohan. Gohan is killed in fight against androids.
-Trunks returns from the past, destroys 17 & 18.
-Three years later, Cell emerges, Trunks destroys him too.

Timeline altered by Trunks:
-Frieza and King Cold are killed by Trunks.
-The warriors train for three years, to combat the androids. Virus does not attack Goku.
-19 & 20 arrive at south city, Goku first gets attacked by Virus.
-17 & 18, as well as 16 arrive. (androids are stronger than the ones Trunks knows)
-Cell arrives in Time machine, absorbs 17 and 18.
-Cell is defeated.
-Majin Buu (yada-yada)
-(yada-yada) GT

Timeline altered by Cell:
-Trunks returns from past
-Trunks destroys 17 & 18
-Three years later Trunks does not destroy Cell, but rather vice-versa.
-Cell travels back in time.

Timeline created by Tapion
-Don't forget that at the end of movie 13 Tapion took the time machine to return to the past. So there had to have been a timeline created by that too.

So as you see, DBZ follows the theory on timetravel, where everytime you change something, a new timeline is formed following those events. As opposed to the theory followed by Back to the Future, where there is all one timeline, and things on that timeline change based on what you do in the past.

[The Tori-bot]

Well in Trunks' timeline, Freeza and King Cold were killed by Goku.

Trunks only stepped into battle because he didn't realize Goku would be able to get there in time.

I have done soo much thinking about the timelines, it's definatly my main topic.

The Time Lines

Original Timeline:
-Freeza and King Cold are killed by Goku.
-Earth enters a time of peace, until Goku is killed by the Lethal Heart Virus.
-Androids 17 & 18 (not 19 & 20) attack South City. All except Gohan are killed.
-Trunks begins training under Gohan. Gohan is killed in fight against androids.
-Trunks returns from the past, destroys 17 & 18.
-Three years later, Cell emerges, Trunks destroys him too.

Timeline altered by Trunks:
-Freeza and King Cold are killed by Trunks.
-The warriors train for three years, to combat the androids. Virus does not attack Goku.
-19 & 20 arrive at south city, Goku first gets attacked by Virus.
-17 & 18, as well as 16 arrive. (androids are stronger than the ones Trunks knows)
-Cell arrives in Time machine, absorbs 17 and 18.
-Cell is defeated.
-Majin Buu (yada-yada)
-(yada-yada) GT

Timeline altered by Cell:
-Trunks returns from past
-Trunks destroys 17 & 18
-Three years later Trunks does not destroy Cell, but rather vice-versa.
-Cell travels back in time.

Timeline created by Tapion
-Don't forget that at the end of movie 13 Tapion took the time machine to return to the past. So there had to have been a timeline created by that too.

So as you see, DBZ follows the theory on timetravel, where everytime you change something, a new timeline is formed following those events. As opposed to the theory followed by Back to the Future, where there is all one timeline, and things on that timeline change based on what you do in the past.

So am I right or wrong?

[_Jrinu_]

Techically you are both right.

Cells were collected from the Frieza and King Cold fight in both timelines.

Cell said to piccolo that they were extracted during the fight with Trunks, because that's what timeline they were in.

Since Cell was created in the original timeline as well, it becomes obvious that the cells were collected when Goku destroyed Frieza and King Cold.

[The Tori-bot]

Techically you are both right.

Cells were collected from the Freeza and King Cold fight in both timelines.

Cell said to piccolo that they were extracted during the fight with Trunks, because that's what timeline they were in.

Since Cell was created in the original timeline as well, it becomes obvious that the cells were collected when Goku destroyed Freeza and King Cold.

Well, there are quite a few contradictions here.

For one, If Goku killed Freeza on Namek in Trunks's timeline, hence no Mecha Freeza, then cells couldn't have been gathered, since Dr Gero states that he didn't record his data on Namek. And, I don't think it's ever mentioned in the series that King Cold ever even came to Earth in Trunks's timeline.

[_Jrinu_]

Techically you are both right.

Cells were collected from the Freeza and King Cold fight in both timelines.

Cell said to piccolo that they were extracted during the fight with Trunks, because that's what timeline they were in.

Since Cell was created in the original timeline as well, it becomes obvious that the cells were collected when Goku destroyed Freeza and King Cold.

Well, there are quite a few contradictions here.

For one, If Goku killed Freeza on Namek in Trunks's timeline, hence no Mecha Freeza, then cells couldn't have been gathered, since Dr Gero states that he didn't record his data on Namek. And, I don't think it's ever mentioned in the series that King Cold ever even came to Earth in Trunks's timeline.

Just to clarify, I never said that Goku killed Frieza on Namek .

Goku was able to beat Frieza to earth using his instant transmission, and he killed him there.

As for King Cold, his cells are in Cell, (hence they sensed him) so he had to have been there.

[The Tori-bot]

Techically you are both right.

Cells were collected from the Freeza and King Cold fight in both timelines.

Cell said to piccolo that they were extracted during the fight with Trunks, because that's what timeline they were in.

Since Cell was created in the original timeline as well, it becomes obvious that the cells were collected when Goku destroyed Freeza and King Cold.

Well, there are quite a few contradictions here.

For one, If Goku killed Freeza on Namek in Trunks's timeline, hence no Mecha Freeza, then cells couldn't have been gathered, since Dr Gero states that he didn't record his data on Namek. And, I don't think it's ever mentioned in the series that King Cold ever even came to Earth in Trunks's timeline.

Just to clarify, I never said that Goku killed Freeza on Namek .

Goku was able to beat Freeza to earth using his instant transmission, and he killed him there.

As for King Cold, his cells are in Cell, (hence they sensed him) so he had to have been there.

Well, I believe there is some evidence that Goku did kill Freeza on Namek (I'm just grasping at straws now... ).

[Duo]

I think Toriyama-sensei may have written himself into a plothole when he had it said that Cell came from a timeline in which Trunks killed Freeza and King Cold, because that would mean the Dragon Team somehow lost to the Artificial Humans despite Trunks forwarning...

Ugh. This is why I don't get into timelines.

[desirecampbell]

Well, I believe there is some evidence that Goku did kill Freeza on Namek (I'm just grasping at straws now... ).

Trunks (from the 'first' timeline) tells Goku (from 'our' timeline) that in Trunks' timeline he Killed Freeza on Earth, but Trunks interviened when Goku seemed to be late. Goku says he could've gotten there sooner if he'd used Instant Transmission.

I'm currently trying to figure out the timeline thing too. We've had discussions on it before, but I'm still unclear on the specifics.

[veshira]

Tori-bot, you're right, but that's exactly what I was trying to say. ^^; Let me refrase what I said before:

The point is, CELL said in HIS timeline that there was a Future Trunks who killed Freeza and King Cold. But how could this be? If there was a Future Trunks, where did he come from? More so, why did Cell's timeline turn out the way it did if there was a Future Trunks to warn Goku-tachi? Is it a plot hole, like Duo said?

[The Tori-bot]

Tori-bot, you're right, but that's exactly what I was trying to say. ^^; Let me refrase what I said before:

The point is, CELL said in HIS timeline that there was a Future Trunks who killed Freeza and King Cold. But how could this be? If there was a Future Trunks, where did he come from? More so, why did Cell's timeline turn out the way it did if there was a Future Trunks to warn Goku-tachi?

I think my brain just exploded...

[Xyex]

The Time Lines

Original Timeline:
-Freeza and King Cold are killed by Goku.
-Earth enters a time of peace, until Goku is killed by the Lethal Heart Virus.
-Androids 17 & 18 (not 19 & 20) attack South City. All except Gohan are killed.
-Trunks begins training under Gohan. Gohan is killed in fight against androids.
-Trunks returns from the past, destroys 17 & 18.
-Three years later, Cell emerges, Trunks destroys him too.

Timeline altered by Trunks:
-Freeza and King Cold are killed by Trunks.
-The warriors train for three years, to combat the androids. Virus does not attack Goku.
-19 & 20 arrive at south city, Goku first gets attacked by Virus.
-17 & 18, as well as 16 arrive. (androids are stronger than the ones Trunks knows)
-Cell arrives in Time machine, absorbs 17 and 18.
-Cell is defeated.
-Majin Buu (yada-yada)
-(yada-yada) GT

Timeline altered by Cell:
-Trunks returns from past
-Trunks destroys 17 & 18
-Three years later Trunks does not destroy Cell, but rather vice-versa.
-Cell travels back in time.

Timeline created by Tapion
-Don't forget that at the end of movie 13 Tapion took the time machine to return to the past. So there had to have been a timeline created by that too.

Not quite. You missed a time-line and changed events that COULD NOT and DID NOT change. This is how I first set up the time-lines:

TL1 - Original Time-line
Goku uses IT to get to Earth and kills Frieza and Cold.
Goku dies from the Heart Virus.
19 & 20 appear and are destroyed by SSJ Vegeta.
17 & 18 kill the Z Fighters.
Trunks goes back in time to TL2
Trunks returns and destroys 17 and 18.
Cell kills Trunks and goes back in time to TL3.

TL2 - Unseen Time-line
Trunks defeats Frieza and Cold.
Trunks warns of the Androis.
SSJ Vegeta destroys 19.
17 & 18 are activated.
Piccolo fuses with Kami.
Piccolo destroys 17 and 18.

TL3 - Anime Time-line
The events seen during the course of the anime.

TL4 - Back to the Future
This time-line is created by the return of a Trunks *stronger* than he should be. It's an off-shoot of the original time-line caused by Cell's appearance and intervention in the past. This is the one we see Trunks return to in the series.

Of course, Cell's statement alters the way things go. If it means his time-line, then the events would unfold like this:

TL1 - Original Time-line
Goku uses IT to get to Earth and kills Frieza and Cold.
Goku dies from the Heart Virus.
19 & 20 appear and kill the Z Fighters.
Trunks goes back to TL2 and warns Goku and the others.
Trunks manages to destroy 19 & 20 and prepares to go back to tell the others, and to help them. (17/18 never activated.)
Cell appears, kills Trunks, and steals his time-machine.

TL2 - History of Trunks
Trunks destroys Frieza and Cold, warns *only* Goku of the Androids (others don't know).
Goku still dies from the virus, the medicine isn't used soon enough.
17 & 18 appear and kill the Z Fighters.
The Trunks of this time-line goes back in time to TL3.
Trunks returns and destroys the Androids and Cell.

TL3 - Anime Time-line
The events as seen in the anime.

Or... something like that. I don't know. There's too many plot holes in the time-traveling portion. I think, perhaps, that the only way to make the whole thing work is to make EACH individual trip into the past create a new time-line. ALSO have each trip into the FUTURE create one as well. Thus you would have

TL1 - Original
TL2 - Trunks warning
TL3 - Trunks returns home
TL4 - Trunks comes back again
TL5 - Cell appears
TL6 - Trunks returns home again

Or... something. I don't know. x.x

[_Jrinu_]

Hmm...

I'm not really sure. It seems like a lot of things there never happened.

TL2 - Unseen Time-line
Trunks defeats Freeza and Cold.
Trunks warns of the Androis.
SSJ Vegeta destroys 19.
17 & 18 are activated.
Piccolo fuses with Kami.
Piccolo destroys 17 and 18.

Not sure where you got that from

TL1 - Original Time-line
Goku uses IT to get to Earth and kills Freeza and Cold.
Goku dies from the Heart Virus.
19 & 20 appear and kill the Z Fighters.
Trunks goes back to TL2 and warns Goku and the others.
Trunks manages to destroy 19 & 20 and prepares to go back to tell the others, and to help them. (17/18 never activated.)
Cell appears, kills Trunks, and steals his time-machine.

I'm also pretty sure that never happened either.

[veshira]

Xyex, your theories are awesome, but I'm not sure they're actually true.

Perhaps the answer is, "Because it is so!"

Actually, I just remembered about a page on Temple o' Trunks that has a like to this page: http://www.bxg.com/x18999/time.html , which has a timeline explanation by Bulma_733. It always confused me, though.

[DaemonCorps]

Seriously... it's gonna mind-f*** your brain if you think about the timelines too much. But I think we can all agree on these things:
- the "original" timeline was the one in which Trunks was killed by Imperfect Cell
- there's at least three timelines that we know of

And here's something else to chew on:
- If you're going to accept the whole thing with there being androids 19 and 20 instead of 17 and 18 in Trunks' timeline, then you should believe that Dr. gero didn't create #19 nor did he transform himself into an android, and there were two more android failures before 17 and 18 (thus making them 19 and 20, instead). Either way, gero was still killed .

Ugh... I'm gonna be up all night thinking about this now...

[Akira]

Well, if you imagine four parrallel universes that have identical pasts, but different points at which they were altered off of a previous timeline, it would look something like this chart I made awhile back. Hopefully this will help a little bit.

http://www.dragonballtoys.com/forums/at ... entid=1258

[Xyex]

Hmm...

I'm not really sure. It seems like a lot of things there never happened.

TL2 - Unseen Time-line
Trunks defeats Freeza and Cold.
Trunks warns of the Androis.
SSJ Vegeta destroys 19.
17 & 18 are activated.
Piccolo fuses with Kami.
Piccolo destroys 17 and 18.

Not sure where you got that from

Well, it's known fact that there's a time-line we never actually see in the series. It's also a known fact that the Trunks Cell kills went to this time-line. The fact that Cell killed Trunks means that Trunks wasn't stronger than him, which means he never entered the RoSaT. So, logically, that leaves only Piccolo to defeat the Androids.

The original theory put by most people for how the Androids were stopped in this time-line is the remote. However, as the remote was created with the blue-prints that Krillin and Trunks found in the lower lab, while looking for Cell's embryo-thing to destroy, that's not possible. So, again, you're left with Piccolo.

TL1 - Original Time-line
Goku uses IT to get to Earth and kills Freeza and Cold.
Goku dies from the Heart Virus.
19 & 20 appear and kill the Z Fighters.
Trunks goes back to TL2 and warns Goku and the others.
Trunks manages to destroy 19 & 20 and prepares to go back to tell the others, and to help them. (17/18 never activated.)
Cell appears, kills Trunks, and steals his time-machine.

I'm also pretty sure that never happened either.

Well, firstly, Trunks states when first speaking to Goku that 19 & 20 are the problems. Not 17 and 18. They're never mentioned until later, when Gero goes to activate them. Thus I decided to make them the problem of the original time-line, and 17 and 18 only be a problem in the following ones.

Anyway, the biggest issue still stands. There are at least four time-lines. Two of which are in the future. One where Trunks dies and one where he doesn't. That's where the issues come up. Because *how* exactly would that work?

[Thanos6]

There has to be four, bare minimum: the main one, the one Mirai Trunks comes from, the one Cell comes from, and the one visited by the Mirai who is killed by Cell. There can be more, depending on your personal theory, but there cannot be less.

The original theory put by most people for how the Androids were stopped in this time-line is the remote. However, as the remote was created with the blue-prints that Krillin and Trunks found in the lower lab, while looking for Cell's embryo-thing to destroy, that's not possible.

Or, as they were getting their butts handed to them left and right, and with no apparent Cell intervention, they went to the ruins of Gero's lab to see if they could scrounge anything from the wreckage that could help and found the blueprints.

[Akira]

I may not have them labled correctly as T1, T2, etc. However, my chart is a good visual aide for noting when the variations to a new timeline took place. Check my previous post in this thread for the link.