T-Timelines?

[MisterFlashdude]

Good god, Desire... I'm 7 and a half minutes into your video and have just developed a deep dislike for the Cell Saga... Damn the splitting time lines!

Oh, but... cool video!

[Thanos6]

I can't explain why Trunks returned to the same alternate timeline instead of just making a new timeliine branching off of his own.

Maybe after the first trip, Bulma had some sort of dimensional navigator built into the time machine, to guarantee he kept going back to the same one? If Reed Richards can do it, Bulma can...

[Akira]

Well, I was running off the assumption that simply time traveling to another timeline didn't create another timeline unless an event was changed, otherwise it would still play out as usual. Otherwise, you might never figure it all out.

Trunks went back from the Yellow bar to the point in the yellow bar where Goku was supposed to defeat Freeza. He changed history and a seperate timeline was born. He killed Freeza instead and warned them of the Androids. This set them on track for the gray timeline. Trunks traveled back to the future (No pun intended), but now traveled back across to his own time. recharged the ship and went back to the "Past" which was really back to the altered timeline he had inadvertantly created. He didn't change anything in his timeline (Yellow) because he hadn't doen anything there that he wouldn't have already done anyway to change anything.

In the Gray timeline, Trunks returned to the past, and they fought the androids on the highway and got beaten, and then either by remote, or Piccolo or whatever they managed to defeat them.

Trunks Returned to yellow, and eventually Imperfect Cell emerged, killed him and stole the time machine. Cell went back over to gray, but by taking action against humans and killing them, and grabbing attention of Piccolo, he changed history and set them on the course for red. However, Trunks was still in the past when he surfaced. So Trunks learned of Cell while he was still in the past. He was set into an altrnate timeline with the rest because he was there, simple as that.

When Trunks returned to yellow from Red, he knew about Cell this time. When Cell emerged to kill him and take the time machine, he knew about it. Trunks Killed Cell instead and changed "history" and created the Blue timeline by that action.

So yeah, they originated from the same timeline, but the Trunks that returned to Yellow returned from Red and not from gray. The one from gray returned and got killed in Yellow.

Confusing as all get out. Hard to get a definate truth with all the "I think this" or "I think that". I admit a lot of my theories involve my thoughts too. I also admit that I am a very opinonated person at times. However, I do strive very hard when I present a theory about this series to ground it in all the facts I can find, no matter how obscure.

I don't doubt that I may be wrong on a detail or two SOMEWHERE in there, but I would imagine that I am on the right track here at least. a good springboard for at least a basic comprehension of the whole multiple timelines thing.

[Olivier Hague]

if you try to return to the future you have to try the timeline you're in first. That is, if the time that you're trying to reach "doesn't exist" in your timeline you are forced back to the last timeline you've branched off from (the one you changed when you came from the future) and try there.

And yet Bulma apparently waited for Trunks' return...

EDIT:
OK, I just watched your video...
Your theory as to why he returned to a later point in the future is interesting, if a bit far-fetched in my opinion.
Also, I really don't think Trunks waited for three years before his second trip to the past...
And finally, in the "bottom timeline" (the one created by Cell), how come Cell doesn't show up to absorb the androids years before Trunks goes into the past?

[Xyex]

Well, I was running off the assumption that simply time traveling to another timeline didn't create another timeline unless an event was changed, otherwise it would still play out as usual.

I've figured this too. I've also been thinking of the 'every time you go back you create a new time-line' concept. Of course, Cell makes such a system complicated but.. it would play out like this:

TL ONE
- Original time-line, Goku kills Freeza/Cold, dies of Heart Virus, Androids appear, Trunks goes back in time to TL2. Eventually destroys Androids and is killed by Cell.

TL TWO
- Trunks kills Freeza/Cold, warns the others of the Androids, goes back to his time and is never seen again.

TL THREE
- Trunks 2nd trip back off-shoots from his appearance. Helps the Z Fighters find a way to defeat the Androids. Returns to the future.

TL FOUR
- Cell appears in what is still TL ONE (he's not altered things yet). When Trunks appears the TL splits, and so does Cell. This is the TL with Cell, but without Trunks ever showing up. Why does this one split? Cell may not have altered anything *yet* but he's sitting there. If some random person in South City who's clueless about what's happening can get split into multiple time-lines, so can Larval Cell. Normally, just being in the past isn't enough to change it, but since the time-line is splitting while he's just sitting there, it is in his case.

TL FIVE
- A copy of TL TWO (Cell hasn't changed anything yet). This is the world in which Trunks warns of the Androids but doesn't come back after leaving.

TL SIX
- Off shoot of TL ONE. Why? Cause we now have TWO Trunks' running around. One that's already returned to TL ONE and another that tries to, but can't, since he already did. Nothing's changed with Trunks, but there's still two of him. So, he creates this alternate future line where he eventually kills the Androids and Cell.

TL SEVEN
- A copy of TL THREE in which Trunks returns to help fight the Androids. At least, until Cell appears. This is the TL where the Cell Games that we see occurs.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Well, I was running off the assumption that simply time traveling to another timeline didn't create another timeline unless an event was changed, otherwise it would still play out as usual. Otherwise, you might never figure it all out.

Technically, Trunks just being there is a change, since he wasn't originally there, so simply traveling to the past would create a new timeline.

[tarsonis]

Just to make things more confusing, here's a timeline from an old FAQ:

http://www.capcorphq.com/dbfaq/b/time-travel.html

[desirecampbell]

Well, I was running off the assumption that simply time traveling to another timeline didn't create another timeline unless an event was changed, otherwise it would still play out as usual. Otherwise, you might never figure it all out.

Technically, Trunks just being there is a change, since he wasn't originally there, so simply traveling to the past would create a new timeline.

Exactly what I was going to say.

Xyex and Akira's theories are interesting but they don't seem to fully understand what 'change' is. Just being in the past causes change.

Heh, I'm making a new video now to explain what's wrong with my timeline theory.


-edit-
That didn't take long.

[The Chibi Kiriyama]

Well, I was running off the assumption that simply time traveling to another timeline didn't create another timeline unless an event was changed, otherwise it would still play out as usual. Otherwise, you might never figure it all out.

Technically, Trunks just being there is a change, since he wasn't originally there, so simply traveling to the past would create a new timeline.

Exactly what I was going to say.

Xyex and Akira's theories are interesting but they don't seem to fully understand what 'change' is. Just being in the past causes change.

Heh, I'm making a new video now to explain what's wrong with my timeline theory.


-edit-
That didn't take long.

Maybe I'm not looking at the video correctly, but if I'm not mistaken the timeline you pointed to as the problematic one (the one depicted as the "present" timeline in Dragon Ball) you mention that the difficulty with it is that there is a missing Cell. But does the timeline you speak of still exist? I would look at the altered timeline as the only one that progresses. The timeline would have progressed normally had he not have killed Freeza. So, if the timeline was altered in by his presence, wouldn't that have not created an offshoot and rather have altered the events of the timeline to accomodate his presence while still keeping the Cell that is eventually destroyed by Kuririn and Trunks as the same one that is found in the unaltered timeline up until Trunks comes?

On a similar note, I can see why this hurts the head to ponder upon...

[desirecampbell]

Maybe I'm not looking at the video correctly, but if I'm not mistaken the timeline you pointed to as the problematic one (the one depicted as the "present" timeline in Dragon Ball) you mention that the difficulty with it is that there is a missing Cell. But does the timeline you speak of still exist? I would look at the altered timeline as the only one that progresses. The timeline would have progressed normally had he not have killed Freeza. So, if the timeline was altered in by his presence, wouldn't that have not created an offshoot and rather have altered the events of the timeline to accomodate his presence while still keeping the Cell that is eventually destroyed by Kuririn and Trunks as the same one that is found in the unaltered timeline up until Trunks comes?

On a similar note, I can see why this hurts the head to ponder upon...

The 'Cell Problem' is that there should be a first form cell appearing around the time the Androids appear in Trunks' timeline (the Trunks we know).



Here's the same image I use in the videos, but with a red line over the 'main timeline' seen in the show. The blue line is Trunks' future (the Trunks we know).

Hope that helps.

[Duo]

Just to make things more confusing, here's a timeline from an old FAQ:

http://www.capcorphq.com/dbfaq/b/time-travel.html

That covers things pretty well...in my opinion. I've been thinking about this whole thing all night at work and it has left me mentally exhausted.

[Xyex]

Well, I was running off the assumption that simply time traveling to another timeline didn't create another timeline unless an event was changed, otherwise it would still play out as usual. Otherwise, you might never figure it all out.

Technically, Trunks just being there is a change, since he wasn't originally there, so simply traveling to the past would create a new timeline.

Exactly what I was going to say.

Xyex and Akira's theories are interesting but they don't seem to fully understand what 'change' is. Just being in the past causes change.

Only if you subscribe to Chaos Theory would his presence alter the events. Just because he's THERE doesn't mean the course of events have changed. It's not until he affects the world around him by interacting and altering the way things happen that the time-line changes.

If you refute this fact, you kill the possibility of Cell both not appearing in the same time-line as Trunks and appearing in the same time-line as him. If simply being in the past causes the change then you can't have two different events in the past. Why? Cell appearing would have happened *before* Trunks appearing, and there's no way around that.

Only with Cell appearing *while* Trunks is there can you have a divergence of the time-line alowing for two past time-lines to exist. One with and one without Cell. So, like it or not, it's how time-travel *has* to work in DB.

[desirecampbell]

Just to make things more confusing, here's a timeline from an old FAQ:

http://www.capcorphq.com/dbfaq/b/time-travel.html

That covers things pretty well...in my opinion. I've been thinking about this whole thing all night at work and it has left me mentally exhausted.

The thing about that chart is it shows Cell's timejump as the first split in the timeline and, because of obvious reasons, that isn't true. That and the timeline of the Trunks we know stems from "some unknown" source.

Only if you subscribe to Chaos Theory would his presence alter the events. Just because he's THERE doesn't mean the course of events have changed. It's not until he affects the world around him by interacting and altering the way things happen that the time-line changes.

If you refute this fact, you kill the possibility of Cell both not appearing in the same time-line as Trunks and appearing in the same time-line as him. If simply being in the past causes the change then you can't have two different events in the past. Why? Cell appearing would have happened *before* Trunks appearing, and there's no way around that.

Only with Cell appearing *while* Trunks is there can you have a divergence of the time-line alowing for two past time-lines to exist. One with and one without Cell. So, like it or not, it's how time-travel *has* to work in DB.

I don't understand "Cell both not appearing in the same time-line as Trunks and appearing in the same time-line as him"? Do you mean 'using Chaos Theory would mean that there could not be a timeline where there were two Cells (one hiding in the ground, and another being grown)?
If so, you're wrong. You can easily have a timeline where there are two Cells (just like we have two Trunks).

[Duo]

While Cell did not commit the first act of time travel (since the foundation of his timeline was Trunks killing Freeza, but never returning, supposedly) but it is the the one that goes farthest back into the central timeline, thus being the first to alter it. We don't know why, but his presence made Goku's sickness strike later, and made #17 and #18 relatively docile, outside of when they are attacked.

[desirecampbell]

While Cell did not commit the first act of time travel (since the foundation of his timeline was Trunks killing Freeza, but never returning, supposedly) but it is the the one that goes farthest back into the central timeline, thus being the first to alter it. We don't know why, but his presence made Goku's sickness strike later, and made #17 and #18 relatively docile, outside of when they are attacked.

Cell comes from a timeline where Trunks goes back in time, defeats Freeza but never returns to the future? Then how does Cell get a time machine?



while it's true that Cell's timejump goes the furthest back, it's not the first split in the timeline. Because Trunks' timejumps happened 'first' they create separate timelines first.

The problem is thinking 4 dimensionally - it's hard to do. And so most people have a hell of a time wrapping their head around time travel.

[Duo]

Cell comes from a timeline where Trunks goes back in time, defeats Freeza but never returns to the future? Then how does Cell get a time machine?



while it's true that Cell's timejump goes the furthest back, it's not the first split in the timeline. Because Trunks' timejumps happened 'first' they create separate timelines first.

The problem is thinking 4 dimensionally - it's hard to do. And so most people have a hell of a time wrapping their head around time travel.

Allow me to quote the beginning of my last post.

While Cell did not commit the first act of time travel (since the foundation of his timeline was Trunks killing Freeza, but never returning, supposedly)

[Olivier Hague]

Just because he's THERE doesn't mean the course of events have changed.

Define "event". His mere presence is a difference, an alteration. A change.

We don't know why, but his presence made Goku's sickness strike later, and made #17 and #18 relatively docile, outside of when they are attacked.

Or maybe one of Trunks' appearances did?
(there's also the fact that the androids are stronger than in Trunks' timeline... that was never explained either)

[desirecampbell]

Cell comes from a timeline where Trunks goes back in time, defeats Freeza but never returns to the future? Then how does Cell get a time machine?



while it's true that Cell's timejump goes the furthest back, it's not the first split in the timeline. Because Trunks' timejumps happened 'first' they create separate timelines first.

The problem is thinking 4 dimensionally - it's hard to do. And so most people have a hell of a time wrapping their head around time travel.

Allow me to quote the beginning of my last post.

While Cell did not commit the first act of time travel (since the foundation of his timeline was Trunks killing Freeza, but never returning, supposedly)

I was commenting on the timeline graph's innacuracy, not yours

And I agree with Olivier Hague, the way Xyex describes 'alteration' is rather slipshod. Trunks himself comments briefly on how things have changed that he couldn't have affected directly (like the Androids numbers, and strength).

[Xyex]

I don't understand "Cell both not appearing in the same time-line as Trunks and appearing in the same time-line as him"? Do you mean 'using Chaos Theory would mean that there could not be a timeline where there were two Cells (one hiding in the ground, and another being grown)?
If so, you're wrong. You can easily have a timeline where there are two Cells (just like we have two Trunks).

Ok, it's like this. Going by the 4 time-lines theory, we know that there is a time-line where Cell did not appear in the past. Trunks was there, but Cell was not. If you say that simply appearing in the past is enough to split the time-lines, then you can not have a line where he shows up and a line where he doesn't. It's one or the other. Why? Well, let me break down the reasons.

First, let's assume that, even though Cell went back further, Trunks made the first time-line splits since he traveled back first. Ok, so, we now have a time-line in the past that includes Trunks. Ok. Now let's send Cell back in time. He appears a year before Trunks does and splits the time line from that point.

Now we have a time-line that includes Trunks, a time-line that includes Cell, and a time-line that goes along normally. Now, here's the problem. We get to the point when Trunks arrives. Trunks can not appear in two time-lines at once. Only one Trunks went back in time. Therfore, he will appear, just as he did before, in the time-line without Cell. And no Future Trunks will ever show up in the time-line with Cell.

Alright, so, we now see that *that* way is flawed. So, let's change things. Let's now assume that, because Cell went back further, he made the first change to the time-line. Even though he left after, his earlier appearance changes things first.

So, we send Cell back in time and he splits the time-line. We now have a time-line with Cell and the normal time-line. Go ahead about a year and Trunks goes back. There's two possible events here. Trunks will either enter the original time-line creating a split resulting in an identicle event to the last instance, where there's one with Cell, one with Trunks, and one with neither, or he'll enter and split the Cell time-line.

So, now we hit the issue with this process. If he enters the Cell time-line and causes it to split, what do we end up with? Well, we have the original time-line. We have a time-line with Cell. And we have a time-line with both Cell and Trunks. However, we do not have a time-line with just Trunks and no Cell.

Only by having Cell appearing while Trunks is in the past, or having him appear after Trunks does, can you possibly have the set-up that exists in DBZ. If you take the arrival of the character as the divergence point then it is entirely impossible for the events of the series to occur as they did.

while it's true that Cell's timejump goes the furthest back, it's not the first split in the timeline. Because Trunks' timejumps happened 'first' they create separate timelines first.

The problem is thinking 4 dimensionally - it's hard to do. And so most people have a hell of a time wrapping their head around time travel.

Well, there is no 'ture' first. If you think on a linear path with depatures, then Trunks occured first. If you think on a linear path with arrivals, then Cell occured first.

Define "event". His mere presence is a difference, an alteration. A change.

Alright, I'll give an example. Take a large table. Put a rock down on the left side and a rock down on the right side. Now, this table is the 'time-line' and the rocks are the events occuring in the world (people's interactions, creations of technology, deaths, births, etc). Now, take a third rock and put it in the middle of the table. That is your time-traveler.

Note how the third rock is sitting there? It's not changing the other rocks because it's not DOING anything. It's just there. But the world is still happening just the same as it did before. Now move the third rock over and bump one of the other rocks, doesn't matter which one. You have now just changed the course of events.

One little change to something will lead to another alteration, and then another and another. It's called the Ripple Effect. However, you need something to INFLUENCE that change first. The mere presence of someone wont do a damn thing.

And I agree with Olivier Hague, the way Xyex describes 'alteration' is rather slipshod. Trunks himself comments briefly on how things have changed that he couldn't have affected directly (like the Androids numbers, and strength).

That is the Ripple Effect. He changed one thing which lead to changes in other things. We know, for a fact, that the Z Fighter lead VERY different lives in that 3 year span leading to the arrival of the Androids. What we don't know is what this course of differences caused to be different elsewhere, beyond the fact that it delayed Goku's Heart Virus.

[Steven Perry]

One little change to something will lead to another alteration, and then another and another. It's called the Ripple Effect. However, you need something to INFLUENCE that change first. The mere presence of someone wont do a damn thing.

How small does that "influence" have to be? If somebody simply sees him, will that make a difference?