T-Timelines?

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:18 am

Xyex wrote:One little change to something will lead to another alteration, and then another and another. It's called the Ripple Effect. However, you need something to INFLUENCE that change first. The mere presence of someone wont do a damn thing.

Er... Yes, it would. Even if you stand there doing nothing, you have an influence. The air can't flow through you, for example. There. That's a change already. And it doesn't stop there, obviously.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:55 am

Trunks can not appear in two time-lines at once.

What do you mean? We actually see Trunks interact with himself.

Only by having Cell appearing while Trunks is in the past, or having him appear after Trunks does, can you possibly have the set-up that exists in DBZ

Or, you can follow my theory where Trunks goes back in time, creates a second timeline and the returns, defeats his androids then is killed by his timeline's Cell. That Cell then goes back in time splitting another timeline off. That timeline follows the normal path until Trunks goes back in time again. Now Trunks splits another timeline off of the one Cell created. We now have a complete timeline of the 'Apocolyptic Future', the 'DBZ future' without Cell showing up early. We also have another set of timelines that has Cell showing up early (well, we don't see him in the 'Apocolyptic Future' but we can easily explain that.

Well, there is no 'ture' first. If you think on a linear path with depatures, then Trunks occured first. If you think on a linear path with arrivals, then Cell occured first.

Again, that's the problem with the other timelines I've seen. They use Cell's timjump as the first split in the timeline. It can't, logically, be the first. We know that Cell comes from a timeline where Trunks had gone back in time at least once, and returned and defeated the androids.

lright, I'll give an example. Take a large table. Put a rock down on the left side and a rock down on the right side. Now, this table is the 'time-line' and the rocks are the events occuring in the world (people's interactions, creations of technology, deaths, births, etc). Now, take a third rock and put it in the middle of the table. That is your time-traveler.

Note how the third rock is sitting there? It's not changing the other rocks because it's not DOING anything. It's just there. But the world is still happening just the same as it did before. Now move the third rock over and bump one of the other rocks, doesn't matter which one. You have now just changed the course of events.

One little change to something will lead to another alteration, and then another and another. It's called the Ripple Effect. However, you need something to INFLUENCE that change first. The mere presence of someone wont do a damn thing.

Your logic is flawed. While it's true that effecting even one tiny thing will alter the course of history (and thus create another timeline) your explaination fails when you try to put a limit on what constitues 'effect'. As I've said already, just being in the past "effects" it.

I still maintain that my theory is the best, but by no means perfect. But "I'm workin' on it".

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:30 pm

Waitaminute...

It seems Xyex and I are both going off the four timeline notion presented in the Daizenshuu book that covered this. I also agree that unless an event is changed in some dramatic way, that the course of history is not greatly affected.

Bear in mind this is a fictional world with its own rules of time travel. We have to form our conclusions based on the absolutes presented in the Manga above all else. Be it those absolutes support one of your theories, then by all means use it. If they support mine and Xyex's notion, then that's good too. Let's not get so hung up on being right that we neglect important evidence. I am here to see where my theory can be improved upon as well.

Now, I MUST comment on the idea that Cell's egg coming to the past changed anything major. He was in a secluded part of the forest, and by the time he was found, the Time machine was covered in moss, and he had been underground for 3 years or so. I doubt he affected any change whatsoever on Gero's plans at the time or on Goku's health.

What DID affect a change was Trunks's visit and warning of the Androids. Based on what is said in the Manga and anime, which I will cover first, then I will draw a more logical conclusion.

Known facts:

-Gero had been watching Son Goku since the 22nd World Tournament where Son Goku fought with Tenshinhan. He watched and studied the battles with Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Junior, Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta. At which point Gero decided he had enough information on Son Goku's abilities as a saiyan and could mathimatically determine any future power growth based off what he discovered about the Kaioken Technique.

-Cell was partially created by DNA samples taken from Goku and the others during the aforementioned battles. Cell himself reveals that small, robotic ladybugs spied on the warriors during thier battles and aquired new DNA samples when approriate.

-Trunks warned everyone of the coming battle with the Androids. Therefore, they knew to prepare and become stronger.

-Gero started creation of Cell after the final confrontation with Freeza, but before he himself was remade into an android. He realized it would be many years before Cell was completed, and left the rest of it up to his computer.

-Gero had no idea about Super Saiyan transformations. Goku had changed first on Namek, and Vegeta on a moon in outer space. However, Trunks became a Super Saiyan when he killed Freeza, and Goku did too when they briefly spared with each other as Super Saiyans on earth.

These are all things no one would dispute, we see these things happen or discussed in the Manga and Anime. So based on what happens that is altered, we have to assume the following conclusions:

-The Ladybugs grabbed samples from Freeza and Kold, as they were a new power type to grab samples from. They apparantly rejected the idea of collecting data from Trunks because there was plenty of Saiyan DNA in Cell's Gene pool already from Goku, Vegeta, Nappa and Raditz. The bugs must have left the battleground with the new DNA samples before the fighting began. Protection of the new data and samples, and delivering them safely back to the lab was probably a higher priority than collecting battle data and video footage of that battle.

That likely explains why Gero still had no idea about Super Saiyans when he saw Goku and Vegeta change before his eyes three years later.

-Gero most likely sent them out again to continue surveillance though. At which point, Goku and the others began training for the battle with the androids. Having no idea Gero was watching them the entire time. The simplest conclusion here is - Android #17 and #18 were made even stronger because Goku was stronger. After watching him fight with Piccolo and Gohan (Seen in the anime only dring thier training) Gero probably just made them stronger based on the data he was gathering on Goku's normal form combat.

-Goku was training and staying close to home more. (We see this in the anime, Goku training in the mountains with Gohan and Piccolo) Because he was doing this, and not relaxing more. (Which is probably what he did in the original timeline where he teleported and killed Freeza and thought there was no more threat.) Goku most likely did not visit the location or come into contact with the person he contracts the heart virus from until later on. Therefore he did not show symtoms until later.

I honestly do not think Cell's egg being there had anything to do with those things. The Androids being stronger or Goku's health. The explanations I have set forth may be just educated guesses, but they are far more plausible.

For now, I am sticking with the four timelines theory, and that changes to a different timeline occur only when something disrupts the flow of time and makes things happen differently. We will see how this plays out in further discussion. I am having fun, at least, participating in this with you guys.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:13 pm

Regarding Dr. Gero's research in the previous post...this is the way I look at it.

Once the battle against Vegeta concluded, Gero felt he had gathered every piece of data he would ever need to predict and eventually defeat Son Goku. After that, he set his computer to create Cell, and because of it, only the computer had control over the spy robots and the data they reported, which Gero most likely never bothered checking because he was so busy building #16, #17, #18, and #19.

But eh, I guess that's a discussion for another thread.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:35 am

What do you mean? We actually see Trunks interact with himself.

Please, read what I'm writing and make sure you understand it before trying to respond. If you would have paid attention to what I was saying, it's clearly evident that I was refering only to Future Trunks. Present Trunks has no bearing at all on this matter. I was refering to the fact that you can not send Trunks back in time and then make him appear in two different time-lines from the same trip back.

Or, you can follow my theory where Trunks goes back in time, creates a second timeline and the returns, defeats his androids then is killed by his timeline's Cell. That Cell then goes back in time splitting another timeline off. That timeline follows the normal path until Trunks goes back in time again. Now Trunks splits another timeline off of the one Cell created.

Uhhhh.... I just explained how that doesn't work. -_-

If Cell goes back in time further than Trunks, and goes back in time after Trunks, he will, based on your 'as soon as they appear they change history' theory, create a new time-line. And, as I said before, the Trunks that came back in time from the original time-line can not appear in TWO time-lines at the same time. You can not have Trunks-A appear in time-line B and C without something splitting time-line B into C while Trunks is there. Please, read what I write before replying to it.

Again, that's the problem with the other timelines I've seen. They use Cell's timjump as the first split in the timeline. It can't, logically, be the first. We know that Cell comes from a timeline where Trunks had gone back in time at least once, and returned and defeated the androids.

Yes, but see, that's the thing. The fact that the time-line's split upon change means that as long as you aren't going back to a point where more than one time-line already exists, you'll appear in the orginal and split from it, thus occuring before any following trips, even if they left before you did and already carried out their events.

Your logic is flawed. While it's true that effecting even one tiny thing will alter the course of history (and thus create another timeline) your explaination fails when you try to put a limit on what constitues 'effect'. As I've said already, just being in the past "effects" it.

As I said, you're using Chaos Theory (you know, butterfly flaps it's wings in Africa, Florida gets hit with a class 5 hurricane as a result). I am not using it because Chaos Theory does not apply to the DB universe. See the destruction of the moon and it's lack of impact to the Earth as evidence that there is no causality. Or the fact that the Z Fighters are constantly shaking the planet, blasting apart the weather patterns, and so forth, and the world isn't experiencing massive super storms, earthquakes, etcetra.

Trunks breathing, Trunks standing in the way of a breeze, Trunks stepping on a piece of grass, none of this is going to have any effect on anything. You need to alter the PATH of history. The flow of events in the world. Trunks killing Freeza, Trunks warning of the Androids, hell, even Trunks buying the last can of soda from a vending machine, those will alter the flow of events. But a blocked wind, a trampled blade of grass, these do nothing.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:43 am

Xyex wrote:As I said, you're using Chaos Theory (you know, butterfly flaps it's wings in Africa, Florida gets hit with a class 5 hurricane as a result). I am not using it because Chaos Theory does not apply to the DB universe. See the destruction of the moon and it's lack of impact to the Earth as evidence that there is no causality. Or the fact that the Z Fighters are constantly shaking the planet, blasting apart the weather patterns, and so forth, and the world isn't experiencing massive super storms, earthquakes, etcetra.

Er... I think we're all aware that Toriyama wasn't exactly aiming for perfect physics accuracy...
And the whole butterfly thing isn't all about storms, earthquakes, etc anyway... See below.

Trunks breathing, Trunks standing in the way of a breeze, Trunks stepping on a piece of grass, none of this is going to have any effect on anything. You need to alter the PATH of history. The flow of events in the world. Trunks killing Freeza, Trunks warning of the Androids, hell, even Trunks buying the last can of soda from a vending machine, those will alter the flow of events. But a blocked wind, a trampled blade of grass, these do nothing.

So some events are "important", and some simply don't matter at all? Who's to say which is which? That's pretty subjective.
That's the whole point of the butterfly example: we can't really presume of the effects of an event, even one some would deem "insignificant". Especially on the long term. There are simply far too many factors at work.

Now, why was there an extra android? Why were Androids No.17 and No.18 less evil and more powerful than in Trunks' timeline?
Were these changes caused by somebody on purpose? Apparently not. So what happened? 'Sounds like the butterfly effect to me. What else?

Here's a wild theory among many others...

When Trunks went back in time and warned the main characters about the androids, he allowed them to find No.19 and No.20 almost immediately (whereas they didn't really know what to look for in Trunks' timeline, and weren't expecting ki-less enemies). Thus, Dr. Gero had less time to turn No.17 and No.18 into cruel killing machines.
And that's how we got "gentler" androids.

When Cell went back in time, his mere presence had an unexpected influence as well. Cold, infuriated by his son's injuries, sent some of his men to inspect that "Earth" planet. According to the (Cell-altered) power readings, Earth was deemed "mostly harmless" rather than just "harmless". So Cold decided to improve his son's cybernetic body, "just in case".
When Dr. Gero's spy robot extracted some of Freeza's cells, it also provided its creator with some information about the "Mecha-Freeza technology". Dr. Gero immediately used it on his androids.
Freeza's mechanical body being more powerful than it should have been, No.17 and No.18 end up being more powerful than in Trunks' timeline as well.
This new technology also changed Gero's mind about No.16: he was about to scrap his "failed experiment" altogether, but maybe he could turn it into something decent after all (too bad he got killed before he could finish that one).
There. More powerful No.17 and No.18, and we also have our extra android.

Steven Perry · Post by **Steven Perry** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:37 am

Man, this is fun! Xyex and Desire always argue!

Olivier Hague wrote:So some events are "important", and some simply don't matter at all? Who's to say which is which? That's pretty subjective.
That's the whole point of the butterfly example: we can't really presume of the effects of an event, even one some would deem "insignificant". Especially on the long term. There are simply far too many factors at work.

I agree. Because the time-traveller was simply there, the course of history changes. Even if it was as small as...err... disrupting some bunnies from their sleep in the forest, it has changed; the rabbits were sleeping before. This is different from the original timeline, and can't "fit in" with it. So a new timeline branches off, regardless of whether or not it's big enough to affect the Z-fighters. Xyex was saying that "small" things (like a butterfly) have no impact? Remember: how small and insignificant-looking were the lady-bird droids when they helped to wreak havoc on the world? They're even smaller than butterflies! Those small things are the reason everything turned out how it did... They were most likely present when Trunks first arrived, and immediately that was a change. Gero, analysing the droid's recordings (obviously not when he turned into a Super-Saiyan), probably made his androids much stronger based on the new threat- Trunks. Hell, the droids could've even recorded Trunks' speech to Goku, so Gero knew that the Z-fighters would soon be even stronger (I think Akira said that). That's why he made the androids stronger, and added #16. If the lady-bird droids have been around since Dragonball, why wouldn't they be there during Trunks' first appearance? I'll feel like an idiot if somebody's already said this...

Maybe, the reason Gero didn't know about Super-Saiyans was because the droids record in black and white.

EDIT: I don't think that made sense, but oh well...

Oliver's theories could also apply. I guess.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:43 pm

Er... I think we're all aware that Toriyama wasn't exactly aiming for perfect physics accuracy...

Indeed. And it shows that physics in the DB world are quite different.

Now, why was there an extra android? Why were Androids No.17 and No.18 less evil and more powerful than in Trunks' timeline?

They weren't weaker. Trunks thought they were weaker. But he never fought the Androids in his time at their full strength before fighting the ones in the past. They only ever used 50% power. So the Androids of the past are either as strong or stronger than the ones of the future. I'd say their strength's are the same.

16 is an easy matter to touch on. His entire purpose was to destroy Goku. He didn't want to hurt anything else. So, come the discovery that, hey, Goku's already dead, he could have just wondered off into a secluded area never to be seen again. For all we know he's still walking around and talking to animals in Trunks time.

When Trunks went back in time and warned the main characters about the androids, he allowed them to find No.19 and No.20 almost immediately (whereas they didn't really know what to look for in Trunks' timeline, and weren't expecting ki-less enemies). Thus, Dr. Gero had less time to turn No.17 and No.18 into cruel killing machines.
And that's how we got "gentler" androids.

Or, how about this. 17 and 18 had 20 years to do whatever the hell they wanted to. Personalities can change over 20 years. We already know that they were just as much interested in having fun in Trunks time-line as they were in the past. It's easy to see that 20 years of doing what they want, when they want, and just generally being bored would have changed their personalities.

When Cell went back in time, his mere presence had an unexpected influence as well. Cold, infuriated by his son's injuries, sent some of his men to inspect that "Earth" planet. According to the (Cell-altered) power readings, Earth was deemed "mostly harmless" rather than just "harmless". So Cold decided to improve his son's cybernetic body, "just in case".

We don't know that Cold ever scouted the Earth. In fact, it would seem that his first time even seeing the planet is when he goes there with Freeza. Secondly, Larval Cell's power was so so insignificantly small that none of the Z Fighters ever even noticed it's presence.

When Dr. Gero's spy robot extracted some of Freeza's cells, it also provided its creator with some information about the "Mecha-Freeza technology". Dr. Gero immediately used it on his androids. Freeza's mechanical body being more powerful than it should have been, No.17 and No.18 end up being more powerful than in Trunks' timeline as well.

As I've said, the Android's strengths are either less than the future or the same.

This new technology also changed Gero's mind about No.16: he was about to scrap his "failed experiment" altogether, but maybe he could turn it into something decent after all (too bad he got killed before he could finish that one).
There. More powerful No.17 and No.18, and we also have our extra android.

I've already touched on those as well. 16 didn't care about having 'fun' like 17 and 18 and went off to go live with nature, away from them. And 17 and 18's powers are the same or weaker in the past compared to the future. Not stronger.

Xyex was saying that "small" things (like a butterfly) have no impact? Remember: how small and insignificant-looking were the lady-bird droids when they helped to wreak havoc on the world? They're even smaller than butterflies! Those small things are the reason everything turned out how it did...

The butterfly has nothing to do with small. The butterfly is just the most common example of Chaos Theory. The ladybugs are an entirely different course of matter. The ladybugs have a direct effect on the course of history. Some random butterfly down on an island where no Humans live does not. Sure, it's presence and actions are part of history, but in the grand picture nothing it does effects the outside world.

Anyway, that's getting off the course of what I was wanting to say. You noted the bugs detecting Trunks when he appeared to fight Freeza. Umm, well, see, that's what I've been saying. As soon as Trunks made his appearance at that battle, history was changed. Freeza and Cold noticed him, the ladybug things noticed him, and the Z Fighters noticed him. This did not happen in the normal time-line. So... all you did was make my point for me.

Anyway, as for the most of the rest of your post, I've mentioned already that the Androids in the past aren't stronger. As for not knowing about Super Saiya-jin, I don't think the ladybugs were gathering any kind of power readings, video footage, or anything of the sort by that point. Gero had already finished with his data collection and was making his creations now. What they were doing was gathering new smaples of DNA to use for Cell's creation. That's it. So Goku could have walked around as a Super Saiya-jin for the next 3 years and Gero would have been utterly clueless.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:18 pm

Xyex wrote:They weren't weaker. Trunks thought they were weaker. But he never fought the Androids in his time at their full strength before fighting the ones in the past. They only ever used 50% power.

Where the hell does that come from? ^^;

We don't know that Cold ever scouted the Earth.

"Here's a wild theory among many others..."
Yes, I made that part up. And that other part. And also that one.
It's all a wild theory. Sorry if there was a confusion.

In fact, it would seem that his first time even seeing the planet is when he goes there with Freeza.

(which is why I said he sent some of his men)

Secondly, Larval Cell's power was so so insignificantly small that none of the Z Fighters ever even noticed it's presence.

Kami-Sama noticed it. That's some larva.

The ladybugs are an entirely different course of matter. The ladybugs have a direct effect on the course of history.

A butterfly creating a huge storm would have a direct effect on the course of history as well. That storm killed many people! It's a killer butterfly! It also killed some kid who could have survived to become a great president! Now, that kid will never get to prevent World War III! It's the Butterfly of Doom!

Some random butterfly down on an island where no Humans live does not. Sure, it's presence and actions are part of history, but in the grand picture nothing it does effects the outside world.

Er... I'm afraid you keep missing the point of the butterfly story...
And if you think the "grand picture" of history is entirely devoid of what we'd call "good luck", "bad luck" or "coincidences"...

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:21 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Xyex wrote:Secondly, Larval Cell's power was so so insignificantly small that none of the Z Fighters ever even noticed it's presence.
Kami-Sama noticed it. That's some larva.

Actually, if I recall correctly, Kami-sama merely stated that he felt something "evil" and had a foreboding feeling for the past three years. Nothing to do with power levels. That's in the realm of "intutition".

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:43 pm

Where the hell does that come from? ^^;

17 and 18 told Gohan, before they killed him, while Trunk was unconcious, that they were only using half of their power.

Kami-Sama noticed it. That's some larva.

Kami had a bad feeling. He sensed great evil. He felt danger, not a Ki level. This isn't his power sensing abilities at work. This is godly "Evil is coming!" ability at work. This is not something anyone else could detect.

A butterfly creating a huge storm would have a direct effect on the course of history as well. That storm killed many people! It's a killer butterfly! It also killed some kid who could have survived to become a great president! Now, that kid will never get to prevent World War III! It's the Butterfly of Doom!

As I have said. That only occurs in Chaos Theory which, as seen by the phyiscs of the DB universe, does not even remotely apply to the DB world. Hell, we're not even sure if it has any real world applications at this point.

Er... I'm afraid you keep missing the point

Actually, you're the one missing the point. As I've said. The butterfly is Chaos Theory. Chaos Theory does not apply to the DB universe.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:44 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:Actually, if I recall correctly, Kami-sama merely stated that he felt something "evil" and had a foreboding feeling for the past three years. Nothing to do with power levels.

Yeah, I believe that's how it went, indeed.
(then again, wasn't Majin-Boo already there? I guess that one went under everybody's radar...)

Just to clarify: it's not like I'm a True Believer of the theory I detailed above anyway. That was merely something I came up with while I was typing. I was simply trying to make a point.

We were not given clear explanations as to what caused the changes in the timeline (well, we kinda do: the time-travels... but how exactly?). And we have no reason to believe these changes were caused on purpose.
So it happened "by sheer luck", and "behind the scene" (as we read/watched the series and never really "saw" how cause and consequences were linked exactly)... Unexpected major consequences to "insignificant" events (they weren't even shown or referred to)? That's what I'd call the butterfly effect.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:07 pm

Xyex wrote:17 and 18 told Gohan, before they killed him, while Trunk was unconcious, that they were only using half of their power.

I don't remember anything about that. That's not in the manga, is it?
Besides... Trunks did think they were stronger than "his" androids, after their little fight, right? That would mean the androids used more than half of their power during that fight. Why? It certainly didn't look like they were taking the whole thing more seriously than Trunks' own androids were...

Kami had a bad feeling. He sensed great evil. He felt danger, not a Ki level.

Maybe Cold's men used something else than a ki-o-meter.
Or maybe they detected the time-machine itself (that thing apparently consumes a lot of energy).
Or maybe they were there when Cell's larva freed itself from the time machine. Lots of fireworks.

Not that these technicalities really matter anyway... Like I said above, that was just some quick theory I improvised to make a point about the "butterfly effect", nothing more...

As I have said. That only occurs in Chaos Theory which, as seen by the phyiscs of the DB universe, does not even remotely apply to the DB world.

There are causes and consequences, in the Dragon Ball universe. There are "coincidences". There is "luck", both good and bad.
So yes, it does apply. It's just that it won't sound like rocket science when we'll discuss it.

Chaos Theory does not apply to the DB universe.

Sure it does. Or at least, the "popular" (as opposed to downright scientific) chaos theory does.
What would have happened if Bulma had found Gokû's Dragon Ball while he was on the other side of the mountain? I guess Piccolo (and then Raditz) would have had a lot of fun.
That's the butterfly effect, right there. And it doesn't involve complicated physics, in this case... Gokû simply being there rather than over there ultimately altered the history of his world. In a major way.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:22 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Xyex wrote:17 and 18 told Gohan, before they killed him, while Trunk was unconcious, that they were only using half of their power.
I don't remember anything about that. That's not in the manga, is it?

In the Japanese manga it's the last chapter of volume 33, around page 11.

It's also stated by #17 in the original Japanese anime of the Trunks Special.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:03 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:In the Japanese manga it's the last chapter of volume 33, around page 11.

My bad, then.
Well, I guess that's one way to look at it... I probably thought that was just one of the good old "now you can see I'm much stronger than you, and yet you're still underestimating me" lines, but maybe that was Toriyama clearing up the whole "these ones are stronger than in my timeline" issue, indeed...
I still don't think they were fighting more seriously when Trunks made that remark though... I dunno...

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:32 pm

No, they weren't being any more serious, but they weren't supressing their powers either during that first encounter with Vegeta and the like. Supressing their power was probably something they didn't start doing until later in the future, so as to make the fights against Gohan more interesting and entertaining.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:35 pm

Xyex wrote:No, they weren't being any more serious, but they weren't supressing their powers either during that first encounter with Vegeta and the like.

But it's not like we know that for a fact, is it?

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:38 pm

We actually don't know. We only get these two second shots of them being killed. But it was pretty much stated that they were holding back against Gohan and Trunks.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:53 pm

Xyex, you're not thinkinh fourth dimensionally. And you aren't listening to yourself.

How are timelines made?
Timelines are created when someone goes back in time. There's a more general theory that says that there are an infinite number of timelines being createded every second becuase of every possible decision made by every cognitave being, and that including quantum physics into this theory means that every ataom makes it's own 'descision' and creates infinite timlines itself... but we'll simplify this to only creating new timelines when something new is introduxed into the timeline - whic would mean someone timejumping.

You stated yourself that a timeline is created when the timeline is changed. You focus on the significance, and that's where you start misunderstanding. It doesn't matter if the change is "small" it's still a change, and thus is another timline. Remember that 'other' theory just above ? Think about the why in your theory, then try to explain why it makes sense. You're focusing on people and 'history' rather than any objective reality.

Say Trunks made another timejump back to the pre-historic past. No people, no 'history' to speak of. But his being there changes the timeline, and thus creates a new timeline. This new timeline will be almost exactly like the original one, just a blip 'o Trunks. But it's still another timeline.

Now replace 'pre-historic Earth' with 'a few years before Mecha Freeza shows up', and replace 'Trunks' with 'Cell in Larval form'.

What happens when another timline is created?
Whenever something occurs to disrupt the timeline, a new timeline branches off from that point. This new timeline shares a history with it's 'parent' timeline but it continues on indeipendantly. The original timeline is unaffected by this 'disruption' but the new timeline that is formed contains this 'disruption'.

What's Xyex talking about with the two Furture Trunkses?
I have no idea. He seems to be talking about Trunks showing up in two separate timelines at the same time, which is impossible. I might not have explained it well in the video so I'll try again.

A - Trunks goes back in time and kills Mecha Freeza.
B - Trunks goes back in time and helps Goku and the gang defeat the Androids.
C - Trunks tries to go back in time, but Cell kills him and goes instead.
D - Trunks goes back in time and kills Mecha Freeza.
E - Trunks goes back in time and helps Goku and the gang defeat the Androids and Cell
F - Trunks goes back in time, Cell attacks him first but Trunks kills him.

I don't know where Xyex thought a Trunks would be intwo places at once - I went over the whole thing in the video as the events unfold. Trunks is never in two places at once.
Again, this probably stems from not thinking four-demensionally.

What about Cell's timejump? Doesn't it happen first?
Simply? No. It happens third. It can't happen first because Trunks already used the time machine twice. Cell creates a new timline and, basically, everything starts over again. Cell being in the ground doesn't change much (but it still creates a new timeline).

What about 'Chaos Theory'? WTF mates?^^
'Chaos theory' is just the idea that even the smallest change could, concievibly, drastically change the world. The example is that a butterfly flaps it's wings and creates a hurricane on the other side of the world. Now, this doesn't mean the butterfly has super-weather-powers, it refers to the idea that the little gust of wind generated by that butterfly's wings could be the little gust that gets a cloud moving, that cloud joins other coulds, those clouds form a storm, and eventually a hurricane. 'Chaos theory' refers the the unknown factors in everyday life.

It's point here is that even the slightest change in the timeline (ie: just being there) could have 'drastic consequences'.

But what's 'enough of a change' to change history?
Just to make it clear: just being there changes history. Xyex's explanation of 'when' the timeline splits is flawed because he looks at 'the big picture', which is obviously misguided. The 'big picture' is a very subjective term. in the 'big picture' nothing these characters do is important becaus eit only effects Earth and a few neighboring planets.

Steven Perry · Post by **Steven Perry** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:57 am

Desire, you've just spent all that time rephrasing what's already been said.

Anyway, my thoughts exactly. Personally, I believe there's an infinite array of timelines. The only ones we're focusing on are the ones which a time-traveller splits. I have the feeling this thread is finally gonna reach a conclusion (unlike the Vegito vs. Gogeta one)! We've got diagrams, and videos! You guys really do give DaizEX a good name.