T-Timelines?

[Duo]

I just wanted to clarify a minor detail that was spoken of.

In the Manga Chapter "Trunks: The Story", we start off seeing Super Saiyan Trunks training with Gohan. While they are taking a break, a nearby city starts getting attacked.

Based on what little we hear, it seems Trunks has never fought the Artificial Humans before.

Gohan arrives and delivers a kick to #17. When they are getting ready to fight, #17 points out that he was using only half power last time. He then (this part isn't shown) kills Gohan.

This statement only applys to an unseen fight that occured before this battle. #17 used his full on Gohan and killed him very quickly. We also have NO information on Trunks' fight with them 3 years later as to how much power they used, so that cannot be determined in the least.

[/clarification]

[Xyex]

Xyex, you're not thinkinh fourth dimensionally. And you aren't listening to yourself.

Yes, I am. You're the one who's not. You're applying 3 dimensional causality to 4 dimensions.

What's Xyex talking about with the two Furture Trunkses?
I have no idea. He seems to be talking about Trunks showing up in two separate timelines at the same time, which is impossible. I might not have explained it well in the video so I'll try again.

A - Trunks goes back in time and kills Mecha Freeza.
B - Trunks goes back in time and helps Goku and the gang defeat the Androids.
C - Trunks tries to go back in time, but Cell kills him and goes instead.
D - Trunks goes back in time and kills Mecha Freeza.
E - Trunks goes back in time and helps Goku and the gang defeat the Androids and Cell
F - Trunks goes back in time, Cell attacks him first but Trunks kills him.

I don't know where Xyex thought a Trunks would be intwo places at once - I went over the whole thing in the video as the events unfold. Trunks is never in two places at once.
Again, this probably stems from not thinking four-demensionally.

Haven't watched the video, still don't have time to. However, your outline points out the flaws. If you can't see them... Explain where the Trunks that appears in D - F originates.

[desirecampbell]

Haven't watched the video, still don't have time to. However, your outline points out the flaws. If you can't see them... Explain where the Trunks that appears in D - F originates.

That Trunks is the Future Trunks we know. He 'originates' in his own timeline which is split from Cell's timejump into the past.



That's the timeline chart I make in the video. In the video I explain it better ('cause there timleines are drawn as they form).

The timeline in the center is the original, natural, timeline. It is split when Trunks goes back the first time (A) (somehow he returns to the same timline the second time (B)). Cell kills him and returns to the past (C) splitting another timline. This timeline carries on much like the original timeline (except there's a Cell-puppa in the ground). Eventually Trunks (from this timeline, not the original one) goes back in timer and splits off another timeline (then goes back to the future, then back to the same timeline somehow...) then back to the future again after the Cell games.

The red colored timeline is the one we know of from DragonBall Z, it the timeline the characters we know live in. The blue timeline is the post-apocolytic future that Trunks (the one we know) is from.

Better? I think the video really explains it better, it's only 10 minutes and I think it'd help explain my theory better

[Steven Perry]

The timeline in the center is the original, natural, timeline. It is split when Trunks goes back the first time (A) (somehow he returns to the same timline the second time (B)).

Maybe there's a dimensional navigator (like someone already said)? Trunks wanted to go back to the timeline that he altered, not the doomed one?

[desirecampbell]

The timeline in the center is the original, natural, timeline. It is split when Trunks goes back the first time (A) (somehow he returns to the same timline the second time (B)).

Maybe there's a dimensional navigator (like someone already said)? Trunks wanted to go back to the timeline that he altered, not the doomed one?

Perhaps. One explanation is that the time machine had a multitude of censors that collected various data. Bulma used this data to compare with similar data collected in her timeline to find some way of locating the timeline Trunks came back from.

Meh, she made a time machine I don't doubt she could re-locate a certain timeline.

[Steven Perry]

EDIT:

A number "2" represents a quick return to the future. If the destination is not followed by a "2", the time traveller does not go forward to around the same time as the original departure.

The dotted lines cannot be altered by the time-traveller. A number "1" represents the first departure of that particular time-jump (distinguished by different colours). The red blob represents a split in time.

I'm pretty tired, so I hope that's correct! I changed one thing, though... Trunks has stops time-travelling on the 2nd dotted timeline. He doesn't go back...

Keep in mind that this timeline IS NOT proportioned properly.




DON'T LAUGH IF THIS IS WRONG, DESIRE!

[desirecampbell]

Well, considering we really have no way of knowing what's "right" I can't say it's wrong - what I've been trying to do is figure out whatthe most logical explanation is.

Your explanatin is almost identical to mine. Just a couple of things:

Why can't the dotted lines be altered?

And what does the 'blue' timeline represent? Is taht the timeline we see with the Cell games?

Why does the 'first' Trunks (the one Cell kills) return to and earlier point in the future than the 'second' Trunks (the one we know) does after the Cell games?

[Steven Perry]

Well, considering we really have no way of knowing what's "right" I can't say it's wrong - what I've been trying to do is figure out whatthe most logical explanation is.

Your explanatin is almost identical to mine. Just a couple of things:

Why can't the dotted lines be altered?

And what does the 'blue' timeline represent? Is that the timeline we see with the Cell games?

Why does the 'first' Trunks (the one Cell kills) return to and earlier point in the future than the 'second' Trunks (the one we know) does after the Cell games?

1. Because the events have already occurred. Remember: going back in time creates a new timeline, and does not affect the one that has already happened.
2. Yup.
3. Whoops! I'll edit that... (the yellow arrow on the original timeline should be closer to the brown one too). See, I told you I was tired!

This is what I think happened.

[MyVisionity]

The timeline in the center is the original, natural, timeline. It is split when Trunks goes back the first time (A) (somehow he returns to the same timline the second time (B)).

Maybe there's a dimensional navigator (like someone already said)? Trunks wanted to go back to the timeline that he altered, not the doomed one?

Perhaps. One explanation is that the time machine had a multitude of censors that collected various data. Bulma used this data to compare with similar data collected in her timeline to find some way of locating the timeline Trunks came back from.

Meh, she made a time machine I don't doubt she could re-locate a certain timeline.

I had always assumed that Trunks' leaving and coming back was possible because he returned to a later point in the past than before. My understanding was that there were supposedly an unlimited number of possible futures that exist independently from one another, and that when the past is altered, a new and separate future sprouts.

[Akira]

So we are disregarding the four timelines theory as presented in the Daizenshuu guidebook?

-If we assume the Daizenshuu is correct, and assume that the fictional world of Dragonball has fictional physics (such as the weather being unaffected by a destroyed moon, the Z warriors causing earthquakes and such as mentioned previously) then I think my original chart explains accurately timeline splits that could occur within the theory of four timelines.


-If disregarding the Daizenshuu is what we are doing, then give me a day or two to make a new chart that shows every time travel trip made. I am sure I can piece it all together and make a readable chart. What I would need from someone who has the information is to give me the years of events that happened. I have no access to a year chart, but I know some do.

[Xyex]

The timeline in the center is the original, natural, timeline. It is split when Trunks goes back the first time (A) (somehow he returns to the same timline the second time (B)). Cell kills him and returns to the past (C) splitting another timline. This timeline carries on much like the original timeline (except there's a Cell-puppa in the ground). Eventually Trunks (from this timeline, not the original one) goes back in timer and splits off another timeline (then goes back to the future, then back to the same timeline somehow...) then back to the future again after the Cell games.

There's your flaw. Trunks came from an un-altered time-line. The fact that Goku died of the heart virus is proof enough of that. The Trunks seen in the series *is* from the original time-line.

[Akira]

I got a sheet of paper out today and tried to work it all out, I got frustrated and tore it up. The frustration was more in figuring out what would have logicaly played out in some of the offshoot timelines based on the trips back and forth and who was where at what time. I am still working on it, but I realized something as I went about it.

Well, I will get to that last. I have to ask a question first that will help me determine how this ends up. When Trunks left for the past and returned to the same point from which he left in his original time, his future remained unaltered, correct? Meaning trips across to other timelines are what create offshoots, not returning to your starting point in your own time and continuing from there. The only future change comes in Trunks having traveled to the past and learned about Cell coming from the future of even the time in which he came from. Then when he returns to his own timeline he knows the future and is able to kill Cell instead of being killed himself. Therefore, he does create a seperate offshoot for his own destiny at that point and therefore another timeline that changes history is formed.

Trunks returning to his own future (Aside from knowing about Cell at the end of his time traveling escapades and making a change because of it) does not result in alternate timelines because he is merely returning to where he belongs. I hope this is where everyone is at on this, because if not, there are WAY too many branches to ever figure it all out.

That being said, I realized how the Cell thing would branch out. I don't want to discuss the entirety at the moment, just get my initial segment correct so the rest will unfold correctly.

Timeline 1
Trunks starts in the original and only timeline where the world is being ravaged by the androids. Goku has Killed Freeza and Kold, but died of a virus.

Timeline 2
Trunks travels to the past of his own timeline. By being there and altering events regarding Freeza, Goku and the androids, he spawns a second timeline. He returns to his timeline from this altered one and is surprised that events have not changed. (He does not realize until later that each trip just results in another alternate reality, and he cannot change any pre-existing ones, but only where he is at.)

Timeline 3
Trunks Returns to the past a second time to make sure the androids are beaten. (I will work on the outcomes of each of these offshoots more soon, just trying to establish the changes as they occured then fill in the blanks)

Timeline 4
Trunks returns to his time and defeats the androids based on something he learned in Timeline 3. This branches off from his future (Timeline 1) of the androids destroying everything eventually (Probably)

Timeline 5
Cell appears and, and not finding the androids in Timeline 4, he kills Trunks and takes the time machine to the past.

That's as far as I got. It starts to get very tricky at this point. Where did Cell go back to? Timeline 2 or 3? I would guess 3 because that is where the Z warriors are at in the series when they first encounter him. T3 is an offshoot of T2 where Trunks Kills Freeza and Kold. So this would be T5, with Imperfect Cell eventually emerging.

I am going to take a break at this point and work out more of the details. I think I am starting to grasp it the way you guys are looking at it. Hopefully I will be able to create another chart once I get everything figured out.

[Steven Perry]

Then when he returns to his own timeline he knows the future and is able to kill Cell instead of being killed himself. Therefore, he does create a separate offshoot for his own destiny at that point and therefore another timeline that changes history is formed.

No, because that was meant to happen. The timeline you're speaking of is opposite to the ones at the top (without the Cells), and the fact that Cell appears in the bottom timelines will mean that Trunks should have learnt about it anyway. Cell simply being there was a change, so it means that that timeline (the one underneath the true original timeline) was not meant to play out in the same fashion as the original timeline (thus not being split when Cell's killed). Only if he did that in the original timeline would it split, but that would be impossible (because Cell hadn't gone back in time and split it yet).

[desirecampbell]

The timeline in the center is the original, natural, timeline. It is split when Trunks goes back the first time (A) (somehow he returns to the same timline the second time (B)). Cell kills him and returns to the past (C) splitting another timline. This timeline carries on much like the original timeline (except there's a Cell-puppa in the ground). Eventually Trunks (from this timeline, not the original one) goes back in timer and splits off another timeline (then goes back to the future, then back to the same timeline somehow...) then back to the future again after the Cell games.

There's your flaw. Trunks came from an un-altered time-line. The fact that Goku died of the heart virus is proof enough of that. The Trunks seen in the series *is* from the original time-line.

Uh... 'un altered' and 'Goku dying' are not mutually exclusive ideas. There are two 'Future Trunks' - one we see throughout the show who ends up killing the Cell in his own timeline and one who gets his timemachine car-jacked by Cell.

Look over my other posts, or better yet watch the video, and you'll see that the fourth timeline (the one created by Cell timejumping to the past) plays out almost exactly like the original timeline (only two differences: there's a Cell puppa in the ground, and Trunks kills the Cell of this timeline).


And Akira's post just confuses the hell out of me

[Steven Perry]

...who gets his timemachine car-jacked by Cell.

"Timemachine car-jacked!" How'd you come up with that?

Timeline 4
Trunks returns to his time and defeats the androids based on something he learned in Timeline 3. This branches off from his future (Timeline 1) of the androids destroying everything eventually (Probably).

His future timeline is continuing while he's in the past, meaning that the events haven't even occurred yet. History is being made as it happens, so you can't alter the "history" of that timeline, and split another one off.

Hehe! I've made a new, sexy timeline! It shows the lifespan of Cell:

EDIT:(with timeline names)

[desirecampbell]

Well you've got to remember that there's at least one Cell in each timeline. And the only Cell we see do anything special is the Cell from the first timeline. He kills Trunks and takes his time machine back in time, splitting off a forth timeline. He remains in that timeline (which is #4, and the branches 5 and 6) until he is killed by Gohan in timeline 5. We don't see him in timelines 4 or 6.

[Steven Perry]

Well you've got to remember that there's at least one Cell in each timeline. And the only Cell we see do anything special is the Cell from the first timeline. He kills Trunks and takes his time machine back in time, splitting off a forth timeline. He remains in that timeline (which is #4, and the branches 5 and 6) until he is killed by Gohan in timeline 5. We don't see him in timelines 4 or 6.

Well yeah, of course that's remembered. We just don't see any footage, so I'm not sure when he dies (or whatever) in 1 & 2.

Don't we know that Trunks kills Cell in timeline 4, before he was about to get timemachine car-jacked? I think I remember an episode like that, but I only saw it once.

[desirecampbell]

Well you've got to remember that there's at least one Cell in each timeline. And the only Cell we see do anything special is the Cell from the first timeline. He kills Trunks and takes his time machine back in time, splitting off a forth timeline. He remains in that timeline (which is #4, and the branches 5 and 6) until he is killed by Gohan in timeline 5. We don't see him in timelines 4 or 6.

Well yeah, of course that's remembered. We just don't see any footage, so I'm not sure when he dies (or whatever) in 1 & 2.

Don't we know that Trunks kills Cell in timeline 4, before he was about to get timemachine car-jacked? I think I remember an episode like that, but I only saw it once.

We see that (both anime and manga) when Cell's explaining how he got here. But he killed the Trunks from the original timeline (timeline 1 I guess), not the one we know (from the fourth created timeline).

[Steven Perry]

I've now called the "original timeline" B3 (branch 3) to avoid confusion. This doesn't mean that it's the 3rd timeline, though (it's just a name).

[Akira]

Let's keep an open mind that none of us (including me) has solved this entirely yet. We must also be open to the input from others and things we haven't thought of yet, and allow it to influence the outcome. I am still trying to work it all out. Coming to the conclusion that everytime there is a timejump, there IS a seperation of timelines. Not sure yet, but you may be right on that one. Hardest part is seeing if Trunks' return trips to the future result in a change every time or not. I am thinking in a couple instances it does not, but I have to figure it all the way through to be certain.

There is no "well I think this" in such a discussion. Let's go with "we know this, therefore this..." That is the only way to reach a mutally agreeable understanding of it all.

EDIT: I worked out that Trunks definately creates a seperate timeline apart from his own when he returns after the end of the Cell Games. He himself is an altered Trunks, branched off from a timeline That Cell Altered that he happened to be in the past when it happened. He can't return to the same point as original Trunks (who gets killed by Cell to begin with) They can't both return to the original timeline at the same point at the same time.

The original Trunks returns to his time and eventually gets killed by Cell. The Trunks we saw in the series that stayed in the past until after the Cell game returns, but to a different version of the original timeline. It has to be that way, or as one of you pointed out, there would be two future Trunks' in the same point at the same time.

This is quite a puzzle, and you see lots of stuff you didn't before when you draw it out on paper. Here is one tip for you guys. Draw each path of time travel between your timelines AND the Return Trips. You will start to see parts you overlooked before.