Why is Gogeta super sayain?

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:45 am

From what I can see, the major point being harped on there is that of power supression prior to fusion dance. Yet...Goku and Vegeta have the same base power as it is. Goku has simply attained a higher transformation due to his training in the afterlife. And as Gotenks has show us, just because Vegeta couldn't became an SSJ3 doesn't mean Gogeta couldn't. He probably wouldn't even need to train for it, since he has the knowledge and skills of both of his base parts. Again, there's nothing we are shown Vegetto having available as a resource that Gogeta doesn't have as well, save for a more efficient style of fusion with no drawbacks. SSJ4 Gogeta could lose the fight the same way he lost to Shenron- time limit, not lack of power. Just my two cents on THAT.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:57 am

Onikage725 wrote:From what I can see, the major point being harped on there is that of power supression prior to fusion dance. Yet...Goku and Vegeta have the same base power as it is. Goku has simply attained a higher transformation due to his training in the afterlife. And as Gotenks has show us, just because Vegeta couldn't became an SSJ3 doesn't mean Gogeta couldn't. He probably wouldn't even need to train for it, since he has the knowledge and skills of both of his base parts. Again, there's nothing we are shown Vegetto having available as a resource that Gogeta doesn't have as well, save for a more efficient style of fusion with no drawbacks. SSJ4 Gogeta could lose the fight the same way he lost to Shenron- time limit, not lack of power. Just my two cents on THAT.

And yet that entire post falls apart as soon as you said "Goku and Vegeta have the same base power".

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:57 pm

Duo wrote:
And yet that entire post falls apart as soon as you said "Goku and Vegeta have the same base power".

Explain to me how (without being condescending this time). Did they not fight on even terms as SSJ2s? Or since we're talking about Gogeta, did I miss the deleted scene on some directors cut where Goku dropped his power prior to fusion? Goku, through extensive afterlife training, hit upon a higher transformation. Vegeta, being alive, did not have that luxory. Goku has a greater transformation, not this huge gap in base power that is being implied here.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:34 pm

Onikage725 wrote:
Duo wrote:
And yet that entire post falls apart as soon as you said "Goku and Vegeta have the same base power".
Explain to me how (without being condescending this time). Did they not fight on even terms as SSJ2s? Or since we're talking about Gogeta, did I miss the deleted scene on some directors cut where Goku dropped his power prior to fusion?

Having equal power at SSJ2 doesn't mean they're equal at base. And I'd say Vegeta has the stronger base power, actually.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:36 pm

Xyex wrote:I gave plenty of reason, you're just unreasonable. Razz

Uh, no. No you didn't.

The only information we have to go one is Super Buu (w/ Gohan et al.) is stronger than SSj3 Goku, but nothing compared to SSj Vegetto. Janemba is stronger than SSj3 Goku, but nothing compared to SSj Gogeta.

You stated that Janemba was 'clearly' weaker than Super Buu (w/ Gohan et al.). You didn't explain this, you just said it.

If there are any reasons to think that one type of fusion is stronger than the other, they haven't been brought forth yet. The Elder Kai's mention of a 'more complete' fusion means nothing, Vegetto being stronger than Super Buu (w/ Gohan et al.) in base form means nothing as we didn't see Gogeta in base form do anything.

-edit-

Having equal power at SSJ2 doesn't mean they're equal at base. And I'd say Vegeta has the stronger base power, actually.

No, it doesn't directly mean they have the same base power - but it's a damn good indicator.

BrollysKin · Post by **BrollysKin** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:14 pm

And... Lock. This is getting stupid. To end this disscussion I will say this:

We don't know what fusion is better, and it doesn't really matter anyway. All you guys are doing are going over previously disscussed info and inserting jabs at one another. We are now totally off topic to the threads question and have walked away with nothing.

Grow up, Dragonball is supposed to be fun. The point of these boards is to expand our love for the television show/manga and to find others who share our feelings.

Sebastian (SB) · Post by **Sebastian (SB)** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:30 pm

....There has been topics that had numerous debates regarding fusion & they still haven't been locked. Not that I disagree with you or anything.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:48 am

Onikage725 wrote:
Duo wrote:
And yet that entire post falls apart as soon as you said "Goku and Vegeta have the same base power".
Explain to me how (without being condescending this time). Did they not fight on even terms as SSJ2s? Or since we're talking about Gogeta, did I miss the deleted scene on some directors cut where Goku dropped his power prior to fusion? Goku, through extensive afterlife training, hit upon a higher transformation. Vegeta, being alive, did not have that luxory. Goku has a greater transformation, not this huge gap in base power that is being implied here.

Because Vegeta was only equal to Goku at Ssj2 when under Bobbidi's possession. Without that, Vegeta's Ssj2 form is weaker than Ssj2 Goku's.

And Super Saiyan multipliers are a strange and mysterious subject when you get past Goku on Namek, so to assume that their bases are equal with absolutely no reasoning at all is foolhearty.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:11 am

desirecampbell wrote:
Xyex wrote:I gave plenty of reason, you're just unreasonable. Razz
Uh, no. No you didn't.

The only information we have to go one is Super Buu (w/ Gohan et al.) is stronger than SSj3 Goku, but nothing compared to SSj Vegetto. Janemba is stronger than SSj3 Goku, but nothing compared to SSj Gogeta.

You stated that Janemba was 'clearly' weaker than Super Buu (w/ Gohan et al.). You didn't explain this, you just said it.

Super Buu 1 = So much stronger than SSJ3 Goku he's scared of fighting him. Jenemba = Not so much stronger than SSJ3 Goku that he's scared of fighting him. Super Buu 3 = Weaker than Base Vegetto (Old Kai says they wont need to transform). Jenemba = Stronger than Base Gogeta otherwise he wouldn't have transformed into SSJ and would have just kicked his ass in base.

desirecampbell wrote:If there are any reasons to think that one type of fusion is stronger than the other, they haven't been brought forth yet. The Elder Kai's mention of a 'more complete' fusion means nothing, Vegetto being stronger than Super Buu (w/ Gohan et al.) in base form means nothing as we didn't see Gogeta in base form do anything.

Wow.... So I guess something that's 'more complete' isn't better than something that isn't? So... then, Super Glue made with only a quarter of it's ingrediants is just as good as regular Super Glue would be? Talk about logic.

And, er, that's the point Desire. We DIDN'T see Gogeta's base form because Gogeta knew it wasn't enough to take out Jenemba.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:45 am

Xyex wrote:And, er, that's the point Desire. We DIDN'T see Gogeta's base form because Gogeta knew it wasn't enough to take out Jenemba.

Forgive me for not reading EVERYTHING in the thread, but dare I bring up the, "It's a movie and it looked cool to the director" logic?

HP · Post by HP » Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:34 am

Let me just drop my opinion on why is Vegetto more powerful than Gogeta:
The dance fusion is a natural method, while the Potara is an artificial one. The earings themselves may provide some extra power for those who wear them. Like magically!

Didn't the great Kaioshin increase Gohan's power, magically/mystically?

I think's that should be a reasonable "inside the universe" explanation.

As for the thread question I think majinrod153 has already answered.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:36 am

Xyex, you right when you bring up the fact that Goku wasn't as scared to fight Janemba - but to say that "Jenemba = Stronger than Base Gogeta otherwise he wouldn't have transformed into SSJ and would have just kicked his ass in base" is just wrong. There's no logic there. SSj Vegeta mopped the floor with android 19. Did Vegeta have to be SSj to do that? We don't know.

(And, again, who are Super Buu 1 2 and 3?)

Wow.... So I guess something that's 'more complete' isn't better than something that isn't? So... then, Super Glue made with only a quarter of it's ingrediants is just as good as regular Super Glue would be? Talk about logic. Rolling Eyes

You keep saying that. But you, again, are not taking the word 'complete' the right way. The difference between dance fusion and potara fusion is like the difference between renting a movie and buying a movie. Buying it is 'more complete' because it stays around longer, but while it's around in either case there's no difference.

And, er, that's the point Desire. We DIDN'T see Gogeta's base form because Gogeta knew it wasn't enough to take out Jenemba.

So, no character ever used a powered up form beyond what he needed to? No one? Not even, say, Vegetto? You said he was clearly stronger than Super Buu 3 in his base form, but Vegetto still transformed into a Super Saiyan.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:30 pm

Xyex wrote:Super Buu 3 = Weaker than Base Vegetto (Old Kai says they wont need to transform).

Well...Elder Kaioshin actually said that about the possible fusion of Goku and Gohan. The fact that it was Vegeta changes the truth of that statement.

Originally, Vegetto transforms right away, and I don't believe he would have done so without having good reason to.

And even in the Anime, Boo tells Base Vegetto that "Despite your great strength, you are no match for my full power!" Vegetto transforms after this. So I guess he agreed with Boo.

However, I do agree with the rest of what you said!

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:52 pm

Duo, I am surprised at you. You usually have the manga explanation for most things, and you come at me with an anime quote.

The manga explained why Vegetto became super saiyan when he technically didn't need to. He was trying to goad Buu into an "all is lost" scenario so he would absorb him. Becoming Super Saiyan was necessary only from the standpoint that it put him so far beyond Buu, that absorbtion would be the option Buu would take as the only way to win.

Big Momma · Post by **Big Momma** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:35 pm

The fact that the fusions start off transformed already(sometimes.) always bugged me, especially in Movie 13. How the heck can Goten and Trunks be base form, fuse, and turn out SSJ3?

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:42 pm

Big Momma wrote:The fact that the fusions start off transformed already(sometimes.) always bugged me, especially in Movie 13. How the heck can Goten and Trunks be base form, fuse, and turn out SSJ3?

Well, all the movies are filler and "what-if" scenarios, so your answers for all your movies questions are just, "Because the producers thought it was cool." Which makes perfect sense if you think about it.

But, Gotenks was SSJ3 when base Goten and Trunks fused before Boo absorbed them. The only answer I can give you is, the moment that Goten and Trunks became Gotenks, he powered up to SSJ3 in the instant right after that.

Edit: Ok, here are the images of when we first see Gogeta. This shows that he transformed after he was formed.

When he first see him: http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j71/T ... ure001.jpg

Notice the aura around him hadn't settled yet?

After a couple of seconds: http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j71/T ... ure002.jpg

See, it settled. If he was SSJ when he was first formed, his aura would have already have been settled.

supersaiyanguru · Post by **supersaiyanguru** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:36 pm

Are you aware that your images are no longer there?

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:47 pm

Yeah, my computer had a set back. They're there now. Have a look.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:57 pm

Uh... that could simply be him 'powerig up' while a Super Saiyan. If there's a frame where he has black hair or something, that's show he wasn't a Super Siayan upon fusion.

But, I think, we've already established that the reason he appeared as a Super Saiyan immediatly upon the fusion is because he wanted to. We've seen Gotenks do the same thing.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:06 pm

When Vegeto turned SSJ, he had sparks around his aura. Does this mean he quickly powered up to SSJ2? No. It's just the way his aura started out in that one panel. I believe this is somewhat similar. He turns SSJ and what we see is the aura engulfing him then it getting back to look like a normal aura around him.