Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
RandomGuy96 wrote:and that Gotenks is dozens of times stronger than that
Does Daizenshuu 10 really say that? I don't remember that. You might be thinking of DBZ Son Goku Densetsu, which says Gotenks is "many times" (not "dozens of times") stronger than Goten/Trunks on their own.
GT Perfect Files Vol.2 says Gogeta (not Gotenks) is "many tens of times" stronger than a regular Super Saiyan 4. That's probably where the idea of Gotenks being described as "tens of times/dozens of times" comes from. Even I've messed that up before.
Kakashi wrote:Obviously it means Base Gotenks as it's the picture next to the information
It's got pictures of all Gotenks' forms in the entry. It's got regular Gotenks at the start, but images of the other forms, even the fat/skinny ones, are scattered around. In the Chouzenshuu 4 version at least, the get in question may be to the left of the little thumbnail of regular Gotenks, but it's directly over a big picture of Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.
All that said, I really doubt the pictures factor into anything at all. By "Gotenks" they mean Gotenks in general. They most likely describe him as surpassing Vegeta during the RoSaT training because, hype aside, it's really only after that point that he actually does stuff proving he's stronger than the previous guys who fought Boo.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Obviously it is, because the the same book (and the same series) also establishes that SS Gotenks was already stronger than SS2 Vegeta, then put that blurb next to a picture of base Gotenks. No amount of cherry picking will change that.
"X surpassed Y" cannot be interpretted as "X in certain form surpassed Y in certain form". It's either the same form of X & Y or the maximum power they can reach respectively. The conclusion? Daizenshuu went full retard with this one. Not to mention that it's "Vegeta and the others", meaning that Gotenks surpassed at least two other Z fighters, and I doubt Goku is one of them because then it would've been "Goku and the others".
hleV wrote:"X surpassed Y" cannot be interpretted as "X in certain form surpassed Y in certain form". It's either the same form of X & Y or the maximum power they can reach respectively. The conclusion? Daizenshuu went full retard with this one. Not to mention that it's "Vegeta and the others", meaning that Gotenks surpassed at least two other Z fighters, and I doubt Goku is one of them because then it would've been "Goku and the others".
But were Goku and Vegeta not established at this point to be equals when in the same forms? If base Gotenks surpasses base Vegeta, he also surpasses base Goku, due to them being equals.
Zantetsuken wrote:Then why name Goku and not Vegeta? It also says "leveled up enough" Implying he needed SSJ3 to be stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta.
Or it could mean that he leveled up in general. Like, before he was only a level 10. Vegeta and the others were like, level 15s. But now Gotenks leveled up to a 20. In general. Across all forms.
Neither interpretation is more valid than the other.
Zantetsuken wrote:Then why name Goku and not Vegeta? It also says "leveled up enough" Implying he needed SSJ3 to be stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta.
Or it could mean that he leveled up in general. Like, before he was only a level 10. Vegeta and the others were like, level 15s. But now Gotenks leveled up to a 20. In general. Across all forms.
Neither interpretation is more valid than the other.
I think the answer is pretty clear at this point, but everyone is welcome to believe what they want.
I think it's pretty clear at this point too. Gotenks, after spending the time in the Room of Spirit and Time, increased his strength to where his base form surpassed Ssj2 Vegeta, thus he surpassed Vegeta in every form. He however was still weaker in his base form than Ssj3 Goku, so he had not surpassed him entirely.
Even though there is nothing to support that statement? Ok, someone didn't read the thread, or doesn't actually care about the truth, they just want 'their' version of the story to be right.
There's far more supporting that thought than denying it, given what is established by Goku beforehand. With Goku establishing that Gotenks would be strong enough to beat Buu, and nothing stated or suggested that contradicts this fact, then that puts Ssj Gotenks, before the Room of Spirit and Time, above Ssj2 Vegeta (thus Ssj2 Goku as well). With the boys not being that far behind Goku and Vegeta, and Gotenks being many times stronger than the boys are, there's no logical reason to assume that Ssj Gotenks wouldn't already be higher than Ssj2 Goku and Vegeta.
I'm not saying what I'm saying just because that's what I want to be the case. My opinion of the subject is based on what is strongly supported by the manga and not contradicted by that Daizenshuu article. Your interpretation of the article, if anything, is what contradicts what is shown and suggested in the manga, not ours.
Maybe Goku just secretly hated Goten and Trunks as they were so strong for kids, so he secretly plotted to have them killed by Majin Boo.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Darkprince410 wrote:There's far more supporting that thought than denying it, given what is established by Goku beforehand. With Goku establishing that Gotenks would be strong enough to beat Buu, and nothing stated or suggested that contradicts this fact, then that puts Ssj Gotenks, before the Room of Spirit and Time, above Ssj2 Vegeta (thus Ssj2 Goku as well). With the boys not being that far behind Goku and Vegeta, and Gotenks being many times stronger than the boys are, there's no logical reason to assume that Ssj Gotenks wouldn't already be higher than Ssj2 Goku and Vegeta.
I'm not saying what I'm saying just because that's what I want to be the case. My opinion of the subject is based on what is strongly supported by the manga and not contradicted by that Daizenshuu article. Your interpretation of the article, if anything, is what contradicts what is shown and suggested in the manga, not ours.
Except the manga doesn't support any of what you are saying. This is beyond crazy at this point, and it's almost frustrating how you all keep ignoring/changing the story because it doesn't fit what you want it to say.
Regardless of what Piccolo stated, as Herms pointed out, Gotenks has NO feats until after ROSAT training. The entry is pretty cut in dry, Gotenks at his maximum is stronger than Vegeta....Oooorrrrrr you can choose to ignore it (like how your currently doing) and ignore everything else in the guides as well. I mean, it doesn't seem a little stupid to you for Gotenks Base to be as strong as Goku and Vegeta at SSJ2 when not only does the Diazen confirm it, but so does the anime as well. And having read the Manga, I got the impression of "YEah, he's pretty strong" yet oddly enough there was no confirmation that how he stacks up to Vegeta, Goku or even Gohan?
But you - in a true IN UNIVERSE manner were actually there, you have insider knowledge of what actually went on in the fight. Seriously though, why bother even discussing this anymore if you can't even admit when your wrong?
And for the record, base Gotenks got creamed by Buu (off screen) obviously not doing a better job than the SSJ before him, and he also lost to SuperBuu, admitting that even at his SSJ level, he didn't think he could beat him (at this time, the boys aren't aware of how strong Buu is).
And we are trusting Piccolo? He's the biggest hype machine in the whole arc. He Hyped the Supreme Kai. Enough said.
Zantetsuken wrote:Except the manga doesn't support any of what you are saying.
Except it does. You may disagree, but the quotes are there for everyone to read.
This is beyond crazy at this point, and it's almost frustrating how you all keep ignoring/changing the story because it doesn't fit what you want it to say.
Don't see how you could say this when you were the one ignoring the fact that Boo took the form of the strongest Kaioshin he absorbed, despite the fact that it's stated.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Darkprince410 wrote:There's far more supporting that thought than denying it, given what is established by Goku beforehand. With Goku establishing that Gotenks would be strong enough to beat Buu, and nothing stated or suggested that contradicts this fact, then that puts Ssj Gotenks, before the Room of Spirit and Time, above Ssj2 Vegeta (thus Ssj2 Goku as well). With the boys not being that far behind Goku and Vegeta, and Gotenks being many times stronger than the boys are, there's no logical reason to assume that Ssj Gotenks wouldn't already be higher than Ssj2 Goku and Vegeta.
I'm not saying what I'm saying just because that's what I want to be the case. My opinion of the subject is based on what is strongly supported by the manga and not contradicted by that Daizenshuu article. Your interpretation of the article, if anything, is what contradicts what is shown and suggested in the manga, not ours.
Except the manga doesn't support any of what you are saying. This is beyond crazy at this point, and it's almost frustrating how you all keep ignoring/changing the story because it doesn't fit what you want it to say.
Regardless of what Piccolo stated, as Herms pointed out, Gotenks has NO feats until after ROSAT training. The entry is pretty cut in dry, Gotenks at his maximum is stronger than Vegeta....Oooorrrrrr you can choose to ignore it (like how your currently doing) and ignore everything else in the guides as well. I mean, it doesn't seem a little stupid to you for Gotenks Base to be as strong as Goku and Vegeta at SSJ2 when not only does the Diazen confirm it, but so does the anime as well. And having read the Manga, I got the impression of "YEah, he's pretty strong" yet oddly enough there was no confirmation that how he stacks up to Vegeta, Goku or even Gohan?
But you - in a true IN UNIVERSE manner were actually there, you have insider knowledge of what actually went on in the fight. Seriously though, why bother even discussing this anymore if you can't even admit when your wrong?
Goku says that Gotenks would be able to defeat Buu, which is something that is established that a Super Saiya-jin 2 of Goku and Vegeta's caliber can't do. This is not contradicted or countered by anything seen or shown. Without anything being said or shown to contradict this fact, there's no reason not to take it at face value. Firmly disagreeing with that line is no different than disagreeing with Goku's statement that he could have actually beat Fat Buu if he had wanted to, but chose not to in order to let the boys protect the Earth instead. I mean, nothing contradicts that, but obviously because he never actually does it, it's obviously not true.
And for the record, base Gotenks got creamed by Buu (off screen) obviously not doing a better job than the SSJ before him, and he also lost to SuperBuu, admitting that even at his SSJ level, he didn't think he could beat him (at this time, the boys aren't aware of how strong Buu is).
And we are trusting Piccolo? He's the biggest hype machine in the whole arc. He Hyped the Supreme Kai. Enough said.
It's just silly.
I don't see what any of that has to do with given facts. No one said anything about Gotenks in his base form being able to handle Fat Buu or anything, nor was that expected of him to even attempt it. Secondly, Evil Buu is established quite claerly as being more powerful than Fat Buu, so any feat that Gotenks was established as being able to perform against Fat Buu wouldn't be a certainty when it came to Evil Buu.
Last edited by Darkprince410 on Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Zantetsuken wrote:Except the manga doesn't support any of what you are saying.
Except it does. You may disagree, but the quotes are there for everyone to read.
This is beyond crazy at this point, and it's almost frustrating how you all keep ignoring/changing the story because it doesn't fit what you want it to say.
Don't see how you could say this when you were the one ignoring the fact that Boo took the form of the strongest Kaioshin he absorbed, despite the fact that it's stated.
Except its not officially recognized as a form...and there are no quotes say that "Base Gotenks is stronger than Vegeta."
Darkprince410 wrote:There's far more supporting that thought than denying it, given what is established by Goku beforehand. With Goku establishing that Gotenks would be strong enough to beat Buu, and nothing stated or suggested that contradicts this fact, then that puts Ssj Gotenks, before the Room of Spirit and Time, above Ssj2 Vegeta (thus Ssj2 Goku as well). With the boys not being that far behind Goku and Vegeta, and Gotenks being many times stronger than the boys are, there's no logical reason to assume that Ssj Gotenks wouldn't already be higher than Ssj2 Goku and Vegeta.
I'm not saying what I'm saying just because that's what I want to be the case. My opinion of the subject is based on what is strongly supported by the manga and not contradicted by that Daizenshuu article. Your interpretation of the article, if anything, is what contradicts what is shown and suggested in the manga, not ours.
Except the manga doesn't support any of what you are saying. This is beyond crazy at this point, and it's almost frustrating how you all keep ignoring/changing the story because it doesn't fit what you want it to say.
Regardless of what Piccolo stated, as Herms pointed out, Gotenks has NO feats until after ROSAT training. The entry is pretty cut in dry, Gotenks at his maximum is stronger than Vegeta....Oooorrrrrr you can choose to ignore it (like how your currently doing) and ignore everything else in the guides as well. I mean, it doesn't seem a little stupid to you for Gotenks Base to be as strong as Goku and Vegeta at SSJ2 when not only does the Diazen confirm it, but so does the anime as well. And having read the Manga, I got the impression of "YEah, he's pretty strong" yet oddly enough there was no confirmation that how he stacks up to Vegeta, Goku or even Gohan?
But you - in a true IN UNIVERSE manner were actually there, you have insider knowledge of what actually went on in the fight. Seriously though, why bother even discussing this anymore if you can't even admit when your wrong?
Goku says that Gotenks would be able to defeat Buu, which is something that is established that a Super Saiya-jin 2 of Goku and Vegeta's caliber can't do. This is not contradicted or countered by anything seen or shown. Without anything being said or shown to contradict this fact, there's no reason not to take it at face value. Firmly disagreeing with that line is no different than disagreeing with Goku's statement that he could have actually beat Fat Buu if he had wanted to, but chose not to in order to let the boys protect the Earth instead. I mean, nothing contradicts that, but obviously because he never actually does it, it's obviously not true.
It's countered by the guidebook and Gotenks admitting that his SSJ3 form will be needed to beat Buu.
And we take what at face value? I think everyone agrees that Goku at SSJ3 is stronger than Fatbuu and SuperBuu, and even KidBuu (according to his conversation with Vegeta) No feats, no conversation of any sort was mentioned with SSJ Gotenks outside of "wow, you're strong"
Zantetsuken wrote:Except its not officially recognized as a form...
But it's stated to be a form within the story. Rou Kaioshin asks if that was the form Boo had taken after absorbing the Kaioshin and one of the only people who've actually seen him in that form said yes. What else needs to be said?
and there are no quotes say that "Base Gotenks is stronger than Vegeta."
I'm just talking about Gotenks in general. What you're saying is Goku had absolutely no problem sending the boys to their doom because he was clueless.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Zantetsuken wrote:It doesn't seem like it according to Goku's reaction of "That's it?"
Heh, you are right. Then it seems that Goku actually overestimated them, since he thought they had more. Goku had seen them fighting, and since he isn't the type of person that judges someone from his size or age, he should have an estimation of their power. Turns out they were weaker than he thought.
Zantetsuken wrote:Except you ignored what I said above
"After ROSAT - Leveled up enough - Surpass Vegeta"
Yea - obviously not talking about Base Gotenks.
How? "Leveled up" doesn't mean "transformed".
Zantetsuken wrote:Then why not name Goku and Vegeta instead? It also says "leveled up enough" Implying he needed SSJ3 to be stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta.
Because (base) Gotenks surpassed (SS2) Vegeta, not (SS3) Goku.
Zantetsuken wrote:And we are trusting Piccolo? He's the biggest hype machine in the whole arc. He Hyped the Supreme Kai. Enough said.
He hyped Kaioshin because Kaioshin is stronger than him.
Herms wrote:Does Daizenshuu 10 really say that? I don't remember that.
I recall Fox666 posting that in this thread (the final post I think?), but he deleted his posts...
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Zantetsuken wrote:
It's countered by the guidebook and Gotenks admitting that his SSJ3 form will be needed to beat Buu.
And we take what at face value? I think everyone agrees that Goku at SSJ3 is stronger than Fatbuu and SuperBuu, and even KidBuu (according to his conversation with Vegeta) No feats, no conversation of any sort was mentioned with SSJ Gotenks outside of "wow, you're strong"
In regards to the Kaioushin Buu comment, given that Goku outright states that another transformation is taking place, and then Kibitoshin confirms that the form of Buu that appeared (the bulky Buu) is the form of Buu that he took after absorbing South Kaioushin, then it's quite clear that it's a recognized as a form. If Toriyama went out of his way to have Kibitoshin state that it is the form of Buu that he took when absorbing South, then that's a confirmation that he's a form.
As for the statement, it's only YOUR interpretation of the Daizenshuu entry that counters it, when the interpretation that myself and others have given doesn't contradict it. All that the entry says is that after the training, some form of Gotenks surpassed some form of Vegeta, and given that basically everything in the manga supports that Gotenks as a Super Saiya-jin was at least stronger than Ssj2 Vegeta, if not potentially Ssj3 tier, then it can be reasonably inferred that now even base Gotenks had surpassed Ssj2 Vegeta. This would still keep him from completely surpassing Goku, since Gotenks' base form would still be below Ssj3 Goku, but it'd still have him above Ssj2 Vegeta, thus fulfilling the entirety of what the Daizenshuu entry states.
