"Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others".

[Zantetsuken]

I think Herms or SaiyaJedi said it. Also please tell me you aren't serious bout Goku being maximum

Absolutely serious.

[Kamiccolo9]

You're probably not right, and I'm not saying that to be rude. But what are you basing this on? Where did you get the an arbitrary number like 70% from? Even the scanslations say the same thing FYI

Herms rated some of the different translations, and gave Viz a 7/10. I'm not familiar with any of the other details though.

[Darkprince410]

You're probably not right, and I'm not saying that to be rude. But what are you basing this on? Where did you get the an arbitrary number like 70% from? Even the scanslations say the same thing FYI

That number was thrown out as an estimation of how accurate Viz's translations were in comparison to the original manga, translated specifically from the source. In comparison to the original manga, Viz has taken some liberties in the past with their translations, some being very minor, while some being complete omissions of facts that some would consider important. For example, Viz removed the line where Vegeta explains that the Oozaru transformation increases a Saiya-jin's battle power by ten fold, and in the line in question, they changed the dialogue to suggest that Goku wanted them to help him fight Pure Buu, rather than have them fight in his stead.

[Herms]

The idea behind the 7/10 rating is that the Simmons subtitles are about 9/10, accuracy-wise, and 10/10 is effectively impossible due to things lost in translation, human error, etc. So it's a way of saying "good, but could be better".

[Zantetsuken]

Fair enough, I can't read Japanese so I'll take your word for it.

I will say the line in question relays the same information - Gotenks AND Gohan were though of as both coming to fight instead of either/or.
To be compeletly honest, I used to believe maybe I was wrong, but I am absolutely positive I'm right about this who SSJ3/Gohan/Gotenks and the intention of the manga.

[Kakashi]

This guy is obviously trolling. I posted a huge wall of text with Manga quotes and counter arguments of his and he ignored it

[VegettoEX]

This guy is obviously trolling. I posted a huge wall of text with Manga quotes and counter arguments of his and he ignored it

Enough with the constant accusations of trolling. I certainly have a lot of problems with your walls of text and don't subscribe to most of your theories on a huge variety of strength-related items, and even when I do engage in them, I'd hardly classify my responses as "trolling". No reason to label other folks that way.

You're consistently hung up on the fact that if someone disagrees with you, they're a "troll" and "wrong". Enough is enough. Seriously. You are walking the finest line possible these days. If you want to have any access to the entirety of the Kanzenshuu server, this ends now.

[dbzfan7]

No one likes the Goku was a lunatic theory and secretly hated his sons...that explains some things.

[TheGmGoken]

No one likes the Goku was a lunatic theory and secretly hated his sons...that explains some things.

Now why would he hate Goten? He just met him literally like 1 hour before the Boo Arc even started....

[dbzfan7]

No one likes the Goku was a lunatic theory and secretly hated his sons...that explains some things.

Now why would he hate Goten? He just met him literally like 1 hour before the Boo Arc even started....

Because Goku doesn't like copy cats...besides he already risked Gohan's life in a way where he could die..so he did the same to Goten...that way Goku makes sense and SSJ3 Gotenks isn't stronger than SSJ3 Goku..and Maybe Gohan's potential was overrated and it's really less than Goku's...because everyone knows Goku can only be the best.

[Zantetsuken]

I like Goten.

[Darkprince410]

Fair enough, I can't read Japanese so I'll take your word for it.

I will say the line in question relays the same information - Gotenks AND Gohan were though of as both coming to fight instead of either/or.
To be compeletly honest, I used to believe maybe I was wrong, but I am absolutely positive I'm right about this who SSJ3/Gohan/Gotenks and the intention of the manga.

No it doesn't. Viz's line suggests that the three would be fighting simultaneously, whereas the actual translation makes it out that Goku wouldn't be fighting at all. Even if they were fighting together, time and again we've seen that if two fighters weaker than their opponent try to double team him, it's not going to work. Goku and Piccolo vs. Raditz, Jheese and Baata vs. Goku, etc. It's far more likely that he thought Vegeta planned for overkill (with both Gohan and Gotenks so much stronger than Pure Buu, it'd not even be an issue) or that he wanted insurance in case Buu somehow got lucky and absorbed he or Gotenks, since both Gotenks and Gohan would be more than enough if Buu absorbed Goku, and Gohan would have been more than enough if Buu absorbed either Gotenks or Goku.

If anything, if they were weaker than Goku, having them come up to fight would be extremely dangerous, since absorbing any one of them would result in Buu being too powerful for any of the others to handle. Given where they actually are in terms of strength though, outside of absorbing Gohan, anyone that Buu would have absorbed would have resulted in someone stronger still being there to destroy him.

[Zantetsuken]

The whole reason people double team someone in the first place is so they can stack the odds in their favor. With the theories around here regarding Gotenks SSJ/Base being stronger than Goku and Vegeta (essentially meaning he's on Par with Gogeta, if the Fusion Reborn is any indicator) then WHY would they need to overkill. Gohan was convincingly stronger than SuperBuu, and was more than capable of beating him on his own. I just can't agree that anyone reading that line thought - "Yeah, they both should attack him at the same time so they can overkill him, even though they supposedly are more than strong enough to do it on their own"

Sorry dude, I just can't agree. If it was a winning solution Goku would have protested more (or even thought of it from the start) It was surely a LOT better of a plan than using an attack that has a X minute buildup and has NEVER KILLED anyone in all of the manga.

[Darkprince410]

Vegeta gave his whole reason for why he didn't want to have the boys come up. If it were due to them not being strong enough to get the job done on their own, don't you think he would have said so? He's the last person to ever spare anyone's feelings when it comes to their strength or lack thereof, so him not calling out their lack of strength as the reason why he wanted to use the Genki Dama instead is further evidence that they WERE strong enough to get the job done, but he didn't want to rely on their strength. His whole reason is because he wanted the people of the Earth to handle their own problems for once, and as much as some might consider that a terrible reason, it's still the only true reason given.

That's also why I was saying that it could have been for quick overkill, or as insurance should Buu get lucky and absorb one of them. Sure, if Gohan were to get absorbed, everything would be over and done, but if Goku or Gotenks got absorbed instead, there'd still be someone stronger to take him out still.

[Zantetsuken]

So as I see the timeline
Goku and Vegeta escape Buu
Buu powers up to a form stronger than Superbuu (but weaker than Buutenks and GohanBuu) "Isn't he getting stronger instead?" "This Buu has lost his heart in which he gained, he's no longer weakened" (why mention this if it isn't significant?)

Kaioshinn tries multiple times to get them to fuse
Goku is states that they take their time to come up with a plan, with the thought that the DBs can wish back planets and people. (No mention of Gohan or Gotenks in that plan)
Buu appears, and Goku states that he has to go all out

- Goku's power is said to be more impressive than what he has shown before (This based on his and Vegeta's comments. Statements saying that he can't suppress this form are probably false)
- Goku is stated to be at least on par or more powerful than Buu, as stated by Vegeta (Gather your energy, and you can beat him!) and Confirmed by Goku ("I know, I just need a moment" "I was showing off")

I mean, everything in the final battle shows that all is lost and you want us to believe that Gohan and Gotenks could have 1 shotted this guy and won the fight? And that ALL the promotional material, including the comments regarding BoG basically hyping SSJG as something that can surpass the strength of SSJ3. And the reaction of Goku's defeat to Beers would make no sense based on how you imply the story should play out.

[Zantetsuken]

Vegeta gave his whole reason for why he didn't want to have the boys come up. If it were due to them not being strong enough to get the job done on their own, don't you think he would have said so? He's the last person to ever spare anyone's feelings when it comes to their strength or lack thereof, so him not calling out their lack of strength as the reason why he wanted to use the Genki Dama instead is further evidence that they WERE strong enough to get the job done, but he didn't want to rely on their strength. His whole reason is because he wanted the people of the Earth to handle their own problems for once, and as much as some might consider that a terrible reason, it's still the only true reason given.

That's also why I was saying that it could have been for quick overkill, or as insurance should Buu get lucky and absorb one of them. Sure, if Gohan were to get absorbed, everything would be over and done, but if Goku or Gotenks got absorbed instead, there'd still be someone stronger to take him out still.

Dude - Goku suggested BOTH Gotenks AND Gohan come - we know Gohan is stronger than the boys, they even admitted as such. Never in all of Z has their been a moment when 2 fighters team up on 1 guy (in the manga) for a "overkill" scenario.
There was no reason to say the boys weren't strong enough, the story already implies as such when Goku suggested bringing both fighters to help fight Buu. And No way Gohan was beating Buu with Gotenks/Goku/Vegeta absorbed...are we talking about the same manga?

[Draken]

So you're basing your argument off of an assumption?

[Darkprince410]

Except as we've pointed out, it's not "help fight" it's just fight, as in fight in his place. Viz says help fight, but the original manga suggests otherwise. I'm also saying that the overkill situation is just one of the possible reasons as to have both come up, and that the other is just insurance should something happen to one of them.

As the timeline plays out

Goku and Vegeta are inside Buu, whereupon Goku establishes that they can't beat him without fusing. (He establishes they'd need to fuse outside, even when at full size and thus full strength). Vegeta refuses to fuse with him, and they continue on to find a way to weaken Buu further.

They remove Mr. Buu, triggering a regression in forms. He transforms initially into South Kaioushin Buu, resulting in an increase in strength, and then into Pure Buu, resulting in a significant decrease in strength from Evil Buu (as established by Goku).

Kibitoshin relates the history of Buu prior to the events of the start of the story. He further relates that Buu no longer possesses a heart, and that this heart had weakened his overall power when he had it. Take note though that this heart was only a result of absorbing Dai Kaioushin, and that the boost given to him by South Kaioushin was still in place during this time. As Fat Buu, a large portion of Dai's influence was there, but with Evil Buu, with his ki re-arranged (established by Piccolo), only a slight touch of Dai's influence is there. As such, he's gaining nearly all of Kaioushin Buu's power, with only a bit held back by Dai's influence.

Earth is destroyed and Goku and the others are brought to Kaioushin Kai, where Kibitoshin insists they fuse. Goku counters, saying that he won't need it to beat him, and that he wants to do it on his own because Buu is also on his own. This points out that Goku feels that Evil Buu was stronger than Pure Buu.

Goku and Pure Buu fight, with Goku being established as being equal or stronger. Vegeta comments that Goku is more powerful than he imagined, having only seen him fight as a Super Saiya-jin 3 once before against Fat Buu, and further confirmation of Goku being able to defeat Pure Buu on his own.

Goku loses the ability to hold Ssj3, and the Dragonballs are used to restore the Earth. Goku believes Vegeta wanted to bring the boys back to life to fight in his place, but Vegeta responds that he wants the Earthlings to take care of their own problems for once, and suggests the Genki Dama.

I'm not saying Gohan fighting against Buu if he had absorbed all three of the others, since I don't see Buu being able to get the drop on all three, but I am saying that if Buu were to absorb Gotenks or Goku or Vegeta, then Gohan would be able to easily defeat him still.

I mean, everything in the final battle shows that all is lost and you want us to believe that Gohan and Gotenks could have 1 shotted this guy and won the fight? And that ALL the promotional material, including the comments regarding BoG basically hyping SSJG as something that can surpass the strength of SSJ3. And the reaction of Goku's defeat to Beers would make no sense based on how you imply the story should play out.

Given that Goku is the hero of Battle of the Gods and the central figure, it's only natural they would hype him up. Besides, the official bio for Gohan from Battle of the Gods says that he's stronger than any pure Saiya-jin up to the start of the movie, so again it's a situation of you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The whole "help" part makes no sense, anyway. Goku couldn't fight anymore and Vegeta wasn't any better. It would've been Gohan and Gotenks against Kid Boo.

As for the "suppressing Super Saiyan 3", it's true that he can't. What Goku did was not fight all-out against Boo earlier. That's not the same as suppressing power. Also, they're not exactly in a position to be thinking Gohan and Gotenks would be too much. Goku just finished saying the Potara would've been enough to finish Kid Boo in a blast, so of course he'd rather have Gohan and Gotenks annihilate Boo instead of expecting one or the other to do it.

[RandomGuy96]

That's something I hadn't noticed before Turlast; Goku's first instinct, the first thing he thought to do when his "fair fight" with Buu ended with Buu winning, was "go get Gohan and Gotenks, and let them fight". Not "get Gohan and Gotenks to help me", just "let them do it alone, I'll sit this one out". Not even "wish my strength back" or something similar. And, as I'd like to reiterate, Vegeta had no doubts that this would work, and took care not to mention "that plan wouldn't work" in his list of reasons for why he wanted to use the Genki Dama, even though, you know, that'd be a pretty good reason.