Is Gokuu killing Gohan a sacred story element?

[JulieYBM]

Being the daydreaming bastard I am I often like to think about how one might be able to do a retelling of the Dragon Ball story. An idea I like to constantly fall back on is Gokuu having not killed Son Gohan by the time he meets Blooma and it being Tao Pai Pai (hired by the Red Ribbon Army to hunt down an unsuspecting Blooma), who kills Gohan while searching for the Dragon Balls. Tao Pai Pai finding the long in-seclusion Son Gohan, student of his elder brother's rival, and killing him in a dramatic battle is just ripe with drama. Gokuu would obviously futilely try to take revenge on the spot, have his ass kicked, and go on his journey with Blooma to become a stronger man and resurrect his grandpa.

Long story short, this got me into thinking about whether or not the entire idea of Gokuu being the one to have unknowingly killed his grandpa is a key part of his story. The event is mentioned all of once in the inaugural story arc and surprisingly brought back up during the Saiyan arc. Putting aside the question of how the Hell Toriyama actually remembered that it was Gokuu who killed his grandpa, Gokuu doesn't seem all too fazed by the revelation. Obviously it is simply in Gokuu's nature to not get caught up on those sorts of things, but it has me wondering if from a story perspective it is an important element. Dragon Ball Evolution actually partook in this idea by having Piccolo kill Son Gohan...not that it was used in a particularly dramatic manner.

Would changing the story in this manner be something you would like to see in the future? To a degree I am afraid that altering that piece of the story would remove a unique element from the series, but with Dragon Ball bound to live on for many commercial years to come it really could use a new spice to the dish. God knows it would make for an interesting change in future video games. So, what do you think?

Merry Christmas to all pairs of pants on Kanzenshuu!

[Gyt Kaliba]

Hmm...that really is an interesting question. Ideally I'd like it to stay there since it is a part of the original story, but...well, when you get down to it, it's just not that important of a story point. As you said, it's revealed to us as a reader during the very first story arc, and then it doesn't come up again for a good number of years of publication & reading/airing & watching. And when it does come up, it's just there, no emotional build-up or after effects at all. I know Toriyama isn't one to focus on the drama, but when you think about it, that's a pretty big missed opportunity. It could have been used as a growth point, another reason why the adult Goku is slightly different from his childhood self, if he'd found out about it sometime prior to when he did.

As for how they could change it up, I kinda like the Taopaipai idea, yeah. I've also toyed with the idea, in my envisioning of what a good live-action DB movie would be like, with it being 'apparent' that the Red Ribbon Army killed Gohan for the Dragon Ball - but in my idea that's just a red herring, so still not quite as much of a departure I guess.

[JulieYBM]

Hmm...that really is an interesting question. Ideally I'd like it to stay there since it is a part of the original story, but...well, when you get down to it, it's just not that important of a story point. As you said, it's revealed to us as a reader during the very first story arc, and then it doesn't come up again for a good number of years of publication & reading/airing & watching. And when it does come up, it's just there, no emotional build-up or after effects at all. I know Toriyama isn't one to focus on the drama, but when you think about it, that's a pretty big missed opportunity. It could have been used as a growth point, another reason why the adult Goku is slightly different from his childhood self, if he'd found out about it sometime prior to when he did.

I think Gokuu not really tackling the subject after the revelation is part of what makes him unique, so I don't think I'd like to see that play out. That sort of inhumanity in Gokuu is what makes him so much fun as a character.

As for how they could change it up, I kinda like the Taopaipai idea, yeah. I've also toyed with the idea, in my envisioning of what a good live-action DB movie would be like, with it being 'apparent' that the Red Ribbon Army killed Gohan for the Dragon Ball - but in my idea that's just a red herring, so still not quite as much of a departure I guess.

I've actually thought the idea out further. Tao Pai Pai would be a spy for the Mifan Empire where his brother the Tsuru-sen'nin serves as lead counsel to the naïve Emperor Chaozu (ala the third movie). The Red Ribbon Army, the World King's Army, and the Mifan Empire would be in a three-way struggle for control of the world. Tao Pai Pai would be working his way up to eventually take control of the Red Ribbon Army so as to bolster the forces at his brother's command, eventually allowing them to topple the World King.

Er...this is starting to delve into fan fiction now. Whoops.

[Kamiccolo9]

Being the daydreaming bastard I am I often like to think about how one might be able to do a retelling of the Dragon Ball story. An idea I like to constantly fall back on is Gokuu having not killed Son Gohan by the time he meets Blooma and it being Tao Pai Pai (hired by the Red Ribbon Army to hunt down an unsuspecting Blooma), who kills Gohan while searching for the Dragon Balls. Tao Pai Pai finding the long in-seclusion Son Gohan, student of his elder brother's rival, and killing him in a dramatic battle is just ripe with drama. Gokuu would obviously futilely try to take revenge on the spot, have his ass kicked, and go on his journey with Blooma to become a stronger man and resurrect his grandpa.
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Merry Christmas to all pairs of pants on Kanzenshuu!

In the Spider-Man origin story in Amazing Fantasy 15, Uncle Ben died in his first appearance. It was sad and all, I guess, but you didn't really get a chance to get to know Ben. Later stories worked with this, and revealed more about the character so that we could see why Peter Parker was so affected by this, but going on the original story alone, I could never really make myself care about Uncle Ben.

When Marvel started its Ultimate line in the 2000's, Uncle Ben survived lasted for much longer. He was still killed eventually, but, this time, we actually got a chance to get to know him. There was a possibility of empathizing with the character that wasn't present in the original, since back then he was basically a plot device to motivate Peter Parker. While I have many issues with Ultimate Spider-Man, I feel that this is one instance where it stands heads and shoulders over the original.

So, the point of all this is that I feel that since we never got to know Grandpa Gohan, we really have no reason to care that he died. Toriyama later corrected this somewhat with the, in my opinion, heartbreaking reunion during Baba's tournament, but I never got any indication that Gohan dying had any real affect on the story.

So, all in all, I like the idea you came up with, and feel like it would honestly improve the story. It doesn't work just telling us that Grandpa Gohan was important to Goku; show us why, and we'll actually care about the character.

I hope this is the kind of answer you're looking for, and Merry Christmas!

[Gaffer Tape]

Ooh, lovely topic. Definitely got me thinking, and I really don't want to forget to incorporate some of what I'm about to say in my Saiyan Arc of Dragon Ball Dissection.

Is Goku killing Gohan a sacred story element? No. If there is a re-telling, it would not bother me if that wasn't in there. In fact, there might already be continuities where it's not. I hinted at it in my DBD of Sleeping Princess last week that Son Gohan's backstory from the manga is largely absent from the movie continuity. It never says how he dies. And movie 3 got a lot mileage out of re-casting its leads into new roles in order to fit the story they wanted to tell, and I think that worked out great. So if there's a re-telling, I'm open to seeing what new ways they interpret the story. As long as it's in service to a good story, I don't mind. But, yeah, it also helps that it's not really a big deal in the original chronology to begin with.

So as I was thinking about it just now, it does make me wish it had been incorporated more into the Saiyan Arc. In fact, it seems so perfectly set up, I'm now amazed it wasn't really dealt with aside from a off-hand mention by Goku. And I'm not talking about Goku dwelling on it. It just seems a perfect time for that plot point to be useful to the story. Think about it. In this story, Goku finds out his origins, realizes his special traits are a part of his alien ancestry. He also dies! He goes to the afterlife, ie., the place where his grandfather is. And yet that's never taken advantage of. Kaio doesn't even bother to mention to Goku that his opponents can transform into giant ape monsters. Granted, that's probably because Piccolo destroyed the moon, but that doesn't have to happen. How perfect would it have been for Goku to briefly meet up with Gohan in the afterlife, who tells him this very painful thing, not because he wants to wring this drama out of Goku, but because he NEEDS to know to be prepared for this battle. It makes Gohan's death have an actual purpose in the story: that the knowledge can later be used to give Goku an advantage in the battle he wouldn't have otherwise had, while also giving him a chance to process the knowledge that he killed his own grandfather. I mean, the way it happens in the story is right in the middle of battle, so obviously it's not something Goku has any time to think about. This way, he can be both physically and emotionally ready for what he's about to face and make up for his mistake, which is what I think Toriyama was trying to go for anyway.

[Herms]

I don't know if I'd call it "sacred", but I'd say "sweet little kid protagonist unknowingly killed own grandfather" is a much more interesting plot point than "protagonist's grandfather killed by bad guy".

[Gyt Kaliba]

I guess I should rephrase a bit to make myself more clear - I agree, I wouldn't want Goku to get all wrapped up and dwell on the fact that he killed his grandpa for a long time or something, nor would I want the story to dwell on it for a really long time either. But at the same time, I do kind of feel like it needs...just a little more than what it got. Just something a little more than 'Oh no, I killed my grandpa! Sorry gramps...*never thinks of it again*'.

And as for my mention of maybe bringing the idea in earlier - I was thinking perhaps Goku realizes this, or is told, during his fight with Gohan at Baba's. It could be shown not to really effect him too badly there, at least not with Gohan and the others consoling him that it wasn't his fault, but then during the Daimao fight, at some point where Goku is beaten, perhaps have a small moment where he's thinking 'No...I can't lose...I can't fail Kuririn...Muten Roshi...I can't fail them like I did my grandpa!' ...Okay, poor wording since he didn't 'fail' him, but just something to give this all a little more depth. One of Goku's greatest strengths as a character is how unaffected by things he is, but I can't help but feel that at times it's one of his greatest weaknesses as a character too.

That said, I really do like the idea you brought up too Gaffer. Even leaving things exactly as they are in the series already, how did they not bring Gohan up the second time around Goku was dead at the Anoyoichi Budokai? Big missed opportunity.

[Unicorn_Bazooka]

I've seen people talk about this kinda stuff before.
From what I've heard or seen from Toriyama, I don't really think he's that sort of guy who puts a lot of effort into symbolism or how stuff relates to the future. Could be just coincidences, you know.

I don't really have much to say about this, because I don't really search much information about anything I type here, but that's what I quickly thought.

[ABED]

I think it works fine, unlike Spider-Man or even Superman to some extent, Gohan's death was never a driving force in Goku's life. It's clear that he loved Gohan, but he never vowed to make sure nothing like that would happen again, etc.

[omegalucas]

I think it works fine, unlike Spider-Man or even Superman to some extent, Gohan's death was never a driving force in Goku's life. It's clear that he loved Gohan, but he never vowed to make sure nothing like that would happen again, etc.

Superman... not so, really. It's more like the fact that he got to Earth.
Batman, on the other hand... had is parents not died he'd be only a billionaire playboy philanthropist

[ABED]

I think it works fine, unlike Spider-Man or even Superman to some extent, Gohan's death was never a driving force in Goku's life. It's clear that he loved Gohan, but he never vowed to make sure nothing like that would happen again, etc.

Superman... not so, really. It's more like the fact that he got to Earth.
Batman, on the other hand... had is parents not died he'd be only a billionaire playboy philanthropist

I was thinking more along the lines of Jonathan than Jor-el and Lara. Jonathan's death had a big effect on Clark in every incarnation where it happened.

[DBZAOTA482]

I think it originally was going to be a major story element until Toriyama-sensei decided to add Freeza and whatever to the story.

[Insertclevername]

As Herms said, it's not particularly "sacred" but does add to the charm of not only Son Gokuu's innocent and mysterious character but to the series as a whole. I'm not terribly keen on Son Gohan being killed by Tao Pai Pai let alone any "bad guy".

[Marco Polo]

Goku having killed Gohan and not even knowing it makes Dragon Ball special. When Bulma and the others realize it in Pilaf's castle it's almost humorous!

If the killer was just a martial arts rival it would be too much like Street Fighter with Ryu's master and Akuma/Gouki. Plus this change would add a revenge undertone to the story and we all know Goku is not the kind of characters who does things for revenge (EXCEPT when Krillin was murdered).