How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Goku
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Herms
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Re: How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Gok
In that Q&A where Toriyama gives the 6/10/15 numbers for Goku/Beers/Whis, doesn't he also say Goku and Vegeta might one day close the gap between them and Beers/Whis? It doesn't seem like "they never, ever get any stronger" is something he has set in stone inside his head.
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DannyDBZfanforever
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Re: How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Gok
Goku was already at its limit in SSJ3. He would have an improvement at the end of manga in the fight against Uub, but nothing that big.
Re: How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Gok
Their respective maximum? AT says "they reached a point where there's nothing higher", not points. So by your logic all the main characters had reached that one certain point that they couldn't surpass. Does "the team members worked hard and achieved a goal" mean that every team member has achieved a goal? Nope, the goal was reached by the team. "They reached a point" means "a point has been reached" in general sense, not that every each one of them reached it.Draken wrote:"Main characters"
You say "characters" is referring to one person who reached their max, and thus Toriyama can say "The main characters, who had grown so strong they'd reached a point where there was nothing higher". Since when did plural "characters" and "they'd" refer to ONE main character who'd reached their peak strength? How does anyone reach that conclusion? He pretty much DOES state everyone had reached their respective maximum, it's at which point of their lives that seems to be most up to debate. Has everyone reached their peak for their life? For the manga's serialization? Why would he use "main characters" in general, which to most people refers to MAIN CHARACTERS, aka ALL of them, to refer to one singular person that you'd have to deeply micro-analyze to figure out he's talking about only one person, one person that no one knows?
Saiga's interpretation works too.
Last edited by hleV on Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Gok
That's pretty much what I've been saying!!Herms wrote:In that Q&A where Toriyama gives the 6/10/15 numbers for Goku/Beers/Whis, doesn't he also say Goku and Vegeta might one day close the gap between them and Beers/Whis? It doesn't seem like "they never, ever get any stronger" is something he has set in stone inside his head.
We have Vegeta that someday may become SSJG. We have Goku with most of Godly powers absorbed and also have an immeasurable power.
And without BoG:
- Boo Arc Goku said that he will return stronger because he wants to have a rematch against Pure Boo ( Oob ) and because that is his way of life.
- We have Goku flying with Oob saying that they will even more stronger.
- We have normal SSJ4 and Beyond Limits SSJ4 Kakarotto.
- And we have Goku leaving with Sheng Long and merging with the Dragon Balls. Maybe one of a kind of new powers could reach Kakarotto after that merging.
Re: How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Gok
I don't think Goku is a fortune telling future sight time traveling machine, so I'm not sure why you added in the GT points. And just because Goku said he'd like to get stronger to fight Buu in a rematch =/= Goku actually got strong enough to beat Buu in a rematch.
Re: How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Gok
Well, despite this being an thread only about EoZ, I wanted to include GT points just for connect the EoZ with GT and the result of his training with Oob like Kakarotto had predicted that he would become stronger. I hope you guys here not misunderstand me!!Draken wrote:I don't think Goku is a fortune telling future sight time traveling machine, so I'm not sure why you added in the GT points. And just because Goku said he'd like to get stronger to fight Buu in a rematch =/= Goku actually got strong enough to beat Buu in a rematch.
If Goku says he will return stronger to defeat Oob, we must believe him because he has never shown the opposite!!
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RandomGuy96
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Re: How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Gok
-He can get stronger from the Buu arc and still be weaker than he was in BOG. I don't see what's so hard to grasp here.And without BoG:
- Boo Arc Goku said that he will return stronger because he wants to have a rematch against Pure Boo ( Oob ) and because that is his way of life.
- We have Goku flying with Oob saying that they will even more stronger.
-Characters are fallible. The author is not.
GT logic.- We have normal SSJ4 and Beyond Limits SSJ4 Kakarotto.
- And we have Goku leaving with Sheng Long and merging with the Dragon Balls. Maybe one of a kind of new powers could reach Kakarotto after that merging.
Like when he said he could handle Pure Buu?If Goku says he will return stronger to defeat Oob, we must believe him because he has never shown the opposite!!
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Re: How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Gok
Well unless Goku wishes for youth and immortality there's not a whole lot he can do with reaching a peak, which he's been shown to reach many times in his life. And GT is irredeemably non-canon in my book so nouMDSTSSJ wrote:Well, despite this being an thread only about EoZ, I wanted to include GT points just for connect the EoZ with GT and the result of his training with Oob like Kakarotto had predicted that he would become stronger. I hope you guys here not misunderstand me!!Draken wrote:I don't think Goku is a fortune telling future sight time traveling machine, so I'm not sure why you added in the GT points. And just because Goku said he'd like to get stronger to fight Buu in a rematch =/= Goku actually got strong enough to beat Buu in a rematch.
If Goku says he will return stronger to defeat Oob, we must believe him because he has never shown the opposite!!
Re: How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Gok
Isn't Toriyama extremely forgetful. He thought SSJ2 was SSJ3. I don't think Toriyama gives a damn about strength consistency.RandomGuy96 wrote:-He can get stronger from the Buu arc and still be weaker than he was in BOG. I don't see what's so hard to grasp here.And without BoG:
- Boo Arc Goku said that he will return stronger because he wants to have a rematch against Pure Boo ( Oob ) and because that is his way of life.
- We have Goku flying with Oob saying that they will even more stronger.
-Characters are fallible. The author is not.
GT logic.- We have normal SSJ4 and Beyond Limits SSJ4 Kakarotto.
- And we have Goku leaving with Sheng Long and merging with the Dragon Balls. Maybe one of a kind of new powers could reach Kakarotto after that merging.
Like when he said he could handle Pure Buu?If Goku says he will return stronger to defeat Oob, we must believe him because he has never shown the opposite!!
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Re: How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Gok
Goku does not say he will return "stronger". In the Viz translation he simply says he'll be training for him; in Herms' translation he says he'll have gotten much "better".MDSTSSJ wrote:If Goku says he will return stronger to defeat Oob, we must believe him because he has never shown the opposite!!
When you observe the actual fight, Goku would have won on two occasions with his Kamehameha if not for Kid Buu's ability to regenerate as good as new. Strength was not something he was depicted to lack in that fight. The issue was using that strength effectively. Getting "better" could be interpreted as refining his skills in combat, since their battle was really shown to come down to a matter of execution.
Re: How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Gok
This doesn't work for me because Toriyama is very forgetful and distracted men in what refers to Dragon Ball!RandomGuy96 wrote:
-Characters are fallible. The author is not.
Oh! for you Goku can't become very stronger and achieve other transformation? Well, for me of course he can as we saw in GT ( GT is barely in my personal canon, so yes! )GT logic.
In the entire series we never see Goku training with a super powerful sparring partner like Oob. What are the chances for Kakarotto after training with someone like never before, he become in someone much stronger? Very high are the chances!
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6Like when he said he could handle Pure Buu?
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.” And he manage something as we saw!
He never say that, is not the same thing my friend and Goku doesn't know about SSJ3 energy issues being alive.
So, if Goku could not get stronger, he would have said he couldn't!
Last edited by MDSTSSJ on Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Gok
Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P5.4-5Son_Gohan wrote:MDSTSSJ wrote:
Goku does not say he will return "stronger". In the Viz translation he simply says he'll be training for him; in Herms' translation he says he'll have gotten much "better".
When you observe the actual fight, Goku would have won on two occasions with his Kamehameha if not for Kid Buu's ability to regenerate as good as new. Strength was not something he was depicted to lack in that fight. The issue was using that strength effectively. Getting "better" could be interpreted as refining his skills in combat, since their battle was really shown to come down to a matter of execution.
Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo
Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?…And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”
It's very implied/stated my friend Son_Gohan!!
Re: How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Gok
Could it be that those statements came from Toriyama before he re-read DB to prepare for BOG's writing? I mean... when one of the statements involve him saying that Vegeta had a moustache at the end of the series, it leaves doubt in the rest of the statement being 100% reliable.
Re: How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Gok
I still don't see the word "stronger" being stated. The context here is fighting Fat Buu, not the one they just defeated.MDSTSSJ wrote: Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P5.4-5
Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo
Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?…And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”
It's very implied/stated my friend Son_Gohan!!
Re: How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Gok
" Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one ”Son_Gohan wrote:
I still don't see the word "stronger" being stated. The context here is fighting Fat Buu, not the one they just defeated.
Let's train: Goku and Vegeta will make their training!
For sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one: We will stronger through training to ensure our victory in battle individually in a hand to hand combat!
For me is clearly as water!
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Gok
I think people take this statement too literally. I mean, Toriyama even implied that Goku can surpass Beerus one day, and the movie implies the same thing.
Toriyama just means that this is the latest point of the series were everyone is at their strongest, they've milked to death the near-death power-ups, they have trained by the gods, they've trained in high gravity, they've trained inside RoSaT, they had their dormant powers drawn out, they have achieved the final Super Saiyan forms, they have mastered Fusion, and now there is a guy even stronger than anything they've accomplished and anything they've faced, and there isn't anything they can do to reach his level. But then Super Saiyan God gets in the game. That's his point.
Toriyama just means that this is the latest point of the series were everyone is at their strongest, they've milked to death the near-death power-ups, they have trained by the gods, they've trained in high gravity, they've trained inside RoSaT, they had their dormant powers drawn out, they have achieved the final Super Saiyan forms, they have mastered Fusion, and now there is a guy even stronger than anything they've accomplished and anything they've faced, and there isn't anything they can do to reach his level. But then Super Saiyan God gets in the game. That's his point.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Gok
Vegeta alone would've won against Kid Buu: if not for his regeneration. In that fight they weren't as short in strength as is being suggested, their attacks would have killed Buu had he been an ordinary opponent. If Goku became stronger as a Super Saiyan 3, would that mean his attacks now obliterate Majin Buu automatically? No, he'd still regenerate from them as if nothing happened, unless they're performed in a particularly effective manner. It will always come down to how they use their power when facing someone with his unique abilities, and with the energy limitations of SSJ3 in a living body, having more strength isn't as important as using it effectively in a limited time frame. Goku was already shown to possess the strength to defeat Kid Buu, simply training to acquire more strength is not the be-all, end-all solution; they'd have to train in a way to perform against someone like that specifically.MDSTSSJ wrote:
" Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one ”
Let's train: Goku and Vegeta will make their training!
For sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one: We will stronger through training to ensure our victory in battle individually in a hand to hand combat!
For me is clearly as water!