"Power levels" from the Daizenshuu

DevilsAlwaysCry · Post by **DevilsAlwaysCry** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:36 am

The Chibi Kiriyama wrote:I don't see why most have such a hard time coming to grips with the power Goku had. Vegeta went in one zenkai from being pummeled around by Reacoom to grappling with Freeza on a semi-equal plane. And in reality, when you look at it Goku was at 850 to 900 thousand after his 10G training. 180 thousand was, as Goku states, only the normal Kaio-ken and only for starters. Theoretically, he would have been close to a million at the extent he could perform the Kaio-ken to: Kaio-ken times ten. And that's before his zenkai. With his zenkai he was as strong as Freeza without having to perform the Kaio-ken. 3 million is a rather accurate estimate. And 50 fold for his Super Saiyan state isn't completely out there. Goku states for fact that the Kaio-ken times 20 increases his power 20 fold. The Super Saiyan state makes the Kaio-ken times 20 look like child's play.

Really, even though the Daizenshuu is somewhat inaccurate in literal amounts, the ranges are not so preposterous.

I completely agree with your whole statement. It only makes sense that becoming a Super Saiya-jin increases ones power by that much. I mean to make the Kaio-ken obsolete, it would have to be that large (otherwise Son Goku would've used the Kaio-ken more).

Zeke · Post by **Zeke** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:51 am

Whoa, 20 fold and 50? Wtf. I remember in the anime when Goku was training with the weights on before the other world tournament, he transformed into a Super Sayain, King Kai stated that his Super Saiyan transformation increases his power by 7 folds. Is the FUNi's fault?

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:21 am

Zeke wrote:Whoa, 20 fold and 50? Wtf. I remember in the anime when Goku was training with the weights on before the other world tournament, he transformed into a Super Sayain, King Kai stated that his Super Saiyan transformation increases his power by 7 folds. Is the FUNi's fault?

Lawlz. Any source that states the Super Saiyan Transformation Multiplier (outside of the Daizenshuu saying 50-fold for Goku on Namek) is just making it up. That's an obvious dubline.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:22 am

Duo wrote:
Zeke wrote:Whoa, 20 fold and 50? Wtf. I remember in the anime when Goku was training with the weights on before the other world tournament, he transformed into a Super Sayain, King Kai stated that his Super Saiyan transformation increases his power by 7 folds. Is the FUNi's fault?
Lawlz. Any source that states the Super Saiyan Transformation Multiplier (outside of the Daizenshuu saying 50-fold for Goku on Namek) is just making it up. That's an obvious dubline.

I don't think it was even a dub-line. I'm pretty sure ANY kind of statement like that would be something I'd remember.

The scene in question is where Goku is training with King Kai using enourmouns wrist and ancle weights. Goku seems to be doing alright with a total weight of 8 tonnes but can't move (and starts to sink out of the sky) when it's increased to 40 tonnes. Goku then turns Super Saiyan and comments on how it's "too easy" and starts to practice like the weights aren't even there.

Nothing is said about how much Super Saiyan increases one's strength, though it is implied that it's more than five fold.

Zeke · Post by **Zeke** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:57 am

desirecampbell wrote:
Duo wrote:
Zeke wrote:Whoa, 20 fold and 50? Wtf. I remember in the anime when Goku was training with the weights on before the other world tournament, he transformed into a Super Sayain, King Kai stated that his Super Saiyan transformation increases his power by 7 folds. Is the FUNi's fault?
Lawlz. Any source that states the Super Saiyan Transformation Multiplier (outside of the Daizenshuu saying 50-fold for Goku on Namek) is just making it up. That's an obvious dubline.
I don't think it was even a dub-line. I'm pretty sure ANY kind of statement like that would be something I'd remember.

The scene in question is where Goku is training with King Kai using enourmouns wrist and ancle weights. Goku seems to be doing alright with a total weight of 8 tonnes but can't move (and starts to sink out of the sky) when it's increased to 40 tonnes. Goku then turns Super Saiyan and comments on how it's "too easy" and starts to practice like the weights aren't even there.

Nothing is said about how much Super Saiyan increases one's strength, though it is implied that it's more than five fold.

No, actually it does. I know because I have that saga on tape. When I think it's the South Kai is there saying that Paikon is stronger or what not. If I can find the tape I will rip it off it and place it onto one of my servers and post the link.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:54 am

No, actually it does. I know because I have that saga on tape. When I think it's the South Kai is there saying that Paikon is stronger or what not. If I can find the tape I will rip it off it and place it onto one of my servers and post the link.

No, it doesn't. The only refrence King Kai makes (at least dub wise) to the ammount of power SSJ yields is during the Otherworld Tournament. After Goku transforms King Kai tells the other Kais what it is and they ask what it does. He then says: "It makes him several times..." and I can't remember the exact rest. Either stronger, more powerful, or more amazing, something like that. But ya, it's several, not seven.

Anyway... off to reply to other things now...

Re-read the 1st two things I put in bold and tell me that doesn't contradict itself.

It doesn't. Go outside and do a lot of walking around town and shoping or something all day long. You'll be worn out, tired, and out of energy by the time you're done, but you wont be injured or near death. Thus, if you were a Saiya-jin, you wouldn't get a Zenkai. A DBZ example would be Goku expending every drop of energy he has in a single Kamehameha wave and the passing out from being tired. He's not hurt, just tired.

Concerning Gokû at 3 millions, except because people long believed the old typos from Greg Werner, I can't see why it would be "absurd".

Vegeta, with 4 Zenkai Power Ups and a nap, went from 18,000 to ~2 millions (or even more).
So why couldn't Gokû, with 5 ZPU and a x100 gravity training, go from 8,000 to 3 millions ?

Hell, I used to consider the 90k to 300k absurd for a time, after realizing that 90k was his base and not the 180 he showed to Ginyu. Anyway, Vegeta's 'nap' is a completely different beast than anything else we see in the series. I'll do that in a second, first let me add in this piece:

Vegeta, going from ~250,000 to ~2 millions with one ZPU is already irrealistic enough (and he only suffered a Ki blast from Krilin, barely over 20,000), but it's in the manga, so it is undisputable.
So why the same kind of power up, applied to Gokû, would suddenly seem "absurd" and be discarded, only because it's from the Daizenshû ?

Alright. Let's look at Vegeta first since we've got the most info on him. Earth = 18,000. After a single Zenkai he's now at about 24,000 (IIRC). His second Zenkai probably put him into the low to mid 30,000's. His third most likely put him in the upper 60,000's to lower 70,000's. More than enough to stomp on Jeice, Ginyu in Goku's body, and the injured Ginyu.

Now we get to Vegeta's 'nap'. Obviously *something* was up with his body. He'd had a Senzu so he should have been in tip-top shape, but he wasn't. My thought is that the constant fighting had caused his Zenkai to continue beyond just the healing from the Senzu and that's why he felt odd. After this 'nap' his power is about 250k (just over 8 times more than when he fought Recoome). Then, Krillin blasts a hole THROUGH HIS CHEST and he's only moments from dieing before Dende finally heals him. And yet, his power boost is still less than 10x.

Now look at Goku. From 8k to 90k. And by most people's thoughts that's with 100g training and 4 Zenkais. Considering he was so throughly thrashed on Earth I'd say he was probably around 12k to 16k after the Vegeta fight. Still, even at 12k, that's only a 7.5 increase with training and 3 Zenkais.

Then, suddenly, when his body takes a beating LESS than that of what he got on Earth (less than what Vegeta got against Zarbon too, even) he jumps up more than 33 fold? No. No. No. Just no. The HIGHEST Zenkai we've seen is from Vegeta going up about 10x. Goku's been lucky by best estimation to get a 2x boost from his. 90k to 300k is a 3x boost. That's more reasonable for his gains than 33x.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:38 pm

Xyex wrote: Then, suddenly, when his body takes a beating LESS than that of what he got on Earth (less than what Vegeta got against Zarbon too, even) he jumps up more than 33 fold? No. No. No. Just no. The HIGHEST Zenkai we've seen is from Vegeta going up about 10x. Goku's been lucky by best estimation to get a 2x boost from his. 90k to 300k is a 3x boost. That's more reasonable for his gains than 33x.

I agree completely. Considering that Toriyama didn't provide the level and that it so thoroughly flies in the face of every convention he established beforehand (as was just clearly laid above), I think that 3rd-degree canon sourcebooks known to have the odd error having fudged a zero is far more likely an answer than "Toriyama must have just said screw it." Anyone who's taken a math class has screwed up a decimal, and plenty of companion books have fudged a fact or two. Why is it in this case we are asked by other fans to ignore the established facts and "just accept" a glaring error?
And for further numerical support, Vegeta going from an estimated 60-80k to around 250k, and Goku going from 90k to 300k (both from one Zenkai) fits the same pattern. It shows that Goku had surpassed Vegeta. If someone had blown a hole through his chest and healed him, Freeza would have been a non-issue. That's probably why Toriyama had Dende killed off before Goku could awaken. Just like on Earth, Goku's edge was Kaioken. By that point, he could easily add a 0 to the end of his battle power at a whim. That's no small feat.
I also think people like to think "SSJ WHOA" and like seeing the big numbers. I offer this as food for thought. The other day someone asked me to go through this, and asked what Freeza form 3 was. I said I didn't know, but he'd be above 1 million and below 3, so 2-2.5 would be safe. He said that seemed kind of small. So I asked him this. When dealing with the Ginyu, and pretty much everyone in the saga prior to Freeza, couldn't a thousand points or more make or break a fight? With Freeza they hit a bigger league, but why would anyone think a MILLION wasn't "that much?"

Zeke · Post by **Zeke** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:03 pm

No, it doesn't. The only refrence King Kai makes (at least dub wise) to the ammount of power SSJ yields is during the Otherworld Tournament. After Goku transforms King Kai tells the other Kais what it is and they ask what it does. He then says: "It makes him several times..." and I can't remember the exact rest. Either stronger, more powerful, or more amazing, something like that. But ya, it's several, not seven.

Yeah, I donno where my head was at...ha. I went back and saw those two episodes. For some reason I thought it happened when he was weight training, and King Kai say's his speed, strength, and abilities become several time more sensational than before.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:05 pm

MM, just thought I'd throw this out there. If you've ever played Chou Saiya Densetsu for the Super Famicom, they do something interesting with Goku. Granted this game isn't a canon source, but they do try to hold close to the series' conventions on power (most major villains not named Freeza or SSJ Vegeta seem to have a power congruent with what's stated in either manga or Daizenshuu). When the heroes are fighting Freeza's final form, in the middle you gain control of Goku and...he's underwhelming. He's at max level and his power is in the hundreds of thousands (I don't remember what exactly, but I think it's just shy of 300,000). By this point Piccolo is either your strongest or second strongest character, depending on if you exploit some randomness where the game offers to let you fuse with Dende and shoot his PL to almost 2 mil (I dont get it either, but hey it beats gettin blasted by Freeza), and Vegeta's maxed out just a little under that. The other characters, if properly leveld, even surpass Goku's PL.

Unless of course you have a decent ki card available. Use it, and select Kaioken, and suddenly Goku makes Piccolo and Vegeta look like scrubs. If your ki card was lvl 6 or Z, and you have a Saichorou item card (increases PL by 50%), and you don't even need to bother trying to trigger SSJ.

Though they cap Freeza and SSJ off at about 5 mil, and SSJ Vegeta at 6 mil, so I'm not listing this as proof. Just think it's interesting.

superstar · Post by **superstar** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:58 pm

Does the Daizenshuu give levels in the Cell or Buu saga? I know that is not canon but hey I am just curious.

DevilsAlwaysCry · Post by **DevilsAlwaysCry** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:37 pm

I think Son Goku received such a large power up because he was supposed to be the legendary Super Saiya-jin (of this millennium). It would make sense for his power up to be so drastic.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:15 pm

superstar wrote:Does the Daizenshuu give levels in the Cell or Buu saga? I know that is not canon but hey I am just curious.

No, the only level we are given is Trunks' supressed level of 5.

Folken-sama · Post by **Folken-sama** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:13 pm

Xyex wrote:Then, suddenly, when his body takes a beating LESS than that of what he got on Earth (less than what Vegeta got against Zarbon too, even)

Concidering it's a ~70,000 vs 23,000 fight, I assume Gokû's body took a lot of damage.
He can't even walk by himself after, and he has to be put in a regeneration machine.

That deserves a pretty high ZPU

he jumps up more than 33 fold? No. No. No. Just no. The HIGHEST Zenkai we've seen is from Vegeta going up about 10x.

Gokû is by nature stronger than Vegeta, and unlike Vegeta he didn't merely get beaten over and over, he trained with a x100 gravity also.

That's why his last ZPU is x33, getting beaten after the gravity training gave him a strong ZPU. And that is more reasonable.

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:06 pm

Well, you guys have some interesting points. Some of them very precise and on target and a few that are a bit off but in the right ballpark.

The one thing that always had me believing that those last couple power levels were typoed was based on Freeza's power levels and not so much on Son Goku's.

Right before Freeza blew up planet Vegeta, he conversed with Zarbon and Dodoria. They asked Freeza why he would fear the saiyans when they were so weak compared to him. Freeza asks his men to imagine a scenario where the King, Prince Vegeta, the elites and some of these standouts like this "Bardock" happened to group up against them during a full moon. Freeza declares that only a fool would welcome such a fight.

Freeza knew of the legend of the Super Saiyan, sure, but even more probable in his mind was the possibility of raging Oozaru Saiyans coming after him. Now, Bardock's power was at 10,000 at that time. It was the fact that lower levels like him had a potential to be 100,000 as oozarus that scared Freeza. Freeza was 530,000 in his first form. A group of low levels in the hundreds of thousands could give his first form a run for the money then. What would they be capable of down the road if they continued to increase in power? If the low levels were getting that strong, what of the elites?

With a Maximum of 12,000,000 in final form at 100%, I can see how Freeza considered killing them then a pre-emptive move. But if he had a Maximum of 120,000,000, then it seems ridiculous to even begin to worry about the saiyans at all.

It has to be the 12,000,000 because the percentages of his power match up with Goku's desperate Kaioken escalations to try and keep up with him during the fight.

Here are the power levels from that fight if you go with the 12,000,000 and 15,000,000 estimates for Freeza and Goku:

530000 – Frieza (form 1)
1000000 – Frieza (form 2)
3000000 – Frieza (final form 25%)
6000000 – Frieza (final form 50%)
9000000 – Frieza (final form 75%)
12000000 – Frieza (final form 100%)

300000 – Son Goku
3000000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x10)
6000000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x20)
15000000 – Super Saiyan Son Goku

Folken-sama · Post by **Folken-sama** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:19 pm

Akira wrote:But if he had a Maximum of 120,000,000, then it seems ridiculous to even begin to worry about the saiyans at all.

Then, it's the super saiyajin that he would fear...

Even with 12 miilion no normal saiyajin would be able to defeat him anyway.

DevilsAlwaysCry · Post by **DevilsAlwaysCry** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:04 pm

Folken-sama wrote:
Akira wrote:But if he had a Maximum of 120,000,000, then it seems ridiculous to even begin to worry about the saiyans at all.
Then, it's the super saiyajin that he would fear...

Even with 12 miilion no normal saiyajin would be able to defeat him anyway.

Yeah he was afraid that the legendary Super Saiya-jin would appear because that was the only being who could rival Freeza's power. I think the 120,000,000 battle power for Freeza is accurate because it shows just how much more powerful he is compared to everything. Freeza was ment to be the end all be all villain in Dragonball Z.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:32 pm

Folken-sama wrote:
Akira wrote:But if he had a Maximum of 120,000,000, then it seems ridiculous to even begin to worry about the saiyans at all.
Then, it's the super saiyajin that he would fear...

"Dodoria admitted that Freeza feared the Saiyans! And now you will see what your master fears!" - Vegeta

"Watch that arrogance! What Master Freeza dreaded was a union of all the Saiyans! Alone you are nothing!" - Zarbon

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:55 am

Concidering it's a ~70,000 vs 23,000 fight, I assume Gokû's body took a lot of damage.
He can't even walk by himself after, and he has to be put in a regeneration machine.

1) Goku was concious, Vegeta passed out after his fight with Zarbon.
2) Vegeta *also* passed out as soon has he got to his space pod after the Goku fight.
3) Goku was able to move on his own but needed help standing there. Against Vegeta his legs (and probably dozens of other bones) were shattered.
4) Vegeta was laying into him but not NEARLY as much as he could have. Otherwise Ginyu would have died after a single blow.

That deserves a pretty high ZPU

And that's exactly what it got. 90k to 300k, a 3.3 fold increase, he's greatest boost in power, ever.

Gokû is by nature stronger than Vegeta, and unlike Vegeta he didn't merely get beaten over and over, he trained with a x100 gravity also.

*Bzzzzz!* Incorrect. Goku's base power never surpasses that of Vegeta's until he gets to Namek. And then Vegeta goes and gets 2 more Zenkai's and goes leagues beyond Goku's base. Goku, at the very earliest, doesn't surpass this for a base power until his return to Earth after Namek. Personally, I don't think he'd even surpassed Vegeta's base at that point, not until after his RoSaT training.

That's why his last ZPU is x33, getting beaten after the gravity training gave him a strong ZPU. And that is more reasonable.

You're grasping at straws. WHY would a Zenkai that occured AFTER the training was over be more than 10 times more powerful than one that occured IN the gravity training, if the gravity training was the reason? His Zenkai's on the way to Namek were pitifully small in comparison to those gained by Vegeta on Namek. There is NO reason that it would change.

Then, it's the super saiyajin that he would fear...

Even with 12 miilion no normal saiyajin would be able to defeat him anyway.

Wrong! If Vegeta had his tail on Namek he could have incinerated Freeza without even breaking a sweat. Vegeta base = 2,000,000. Vegeta Oozaru = 20,000,000. Nearly twice that of Freeza's full power.

Yeah he was afraid that the legendary Super Saiya-jin would appear because that was the only being who could rival Freeza's power. I think the 120,000,000 battle power for Freeza is accurate because it shows just how much more powerful he is compared to everything. Freeza was ment to be the end all be all villain in Dragonball Z.

Yes, he was. But you act as though 12 million isn't a staggering amount of power. I call this the Backview Effect. People see the hundreds of millions powers from the Cell and Buu sagas and start treating the MASSIVE powers during even just the Saiya-jin saga like they're barely stronger than ants. That's just not the case.

Remember, before Vegeta arrived on earth, he was the SECOND MOST POWERFUL PERSON IN THE GALAXY. And his maximum was only 180,000. That's a MASSIVE difference. 120 million is absurd, 12 million is mind boggling but reasonable.

"Dodoria admitted that Freeza feared the Saiyans! And now you will see what your master fears!" - Vegeta

"Watch that arrogance! What Master Freeza dreaded was a union of all the Saiyans! Alone you are nothing!" - Zarbon

Exactly. Bardock was surpassing all expectations. Imagine if the ENTIRE Saiya-jin race did that. An army of super powered Oozarus is what Freeza feared. Those super powered Oozarus are probably what he considered to be 'Super Saiya-jins' too.

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:11 am

Yeah, Freeza has no idea what a Super Saiyan is. When Goku does it he says something to the affect of "Saiyans transform into monkeys, not this, what is this?"

Goku's Kaioken boosts match up with Freeza's percentage power boosts as they fight. But only if Freeza had a max of 12,000,000 and not 120,000,000. If that is the case, then there is no way in hell normal Goku or Kaioken Goku could even deflect one of Freeza's energy balls, let alone take a punch from, or even keep up with him.

When Goku took off his wieghted shirt and they agreed to get serious, Freeza went up to 25% of his maximum power. If his max is 12,000,000, then 25% is 3,000,000. Okay, makes sense because Goku at Kaioken x10 was at 3,000,000. So he was able to ratchet it up and match Freeza's power, calling it a bluff. Then Freeza says he will go to 50% of his max and defeat Goku outright.

Freeza goes to 50% of 12,000,000 and nearly drowns Goku who is outclassed. Freeza was at 6,000,000 then. Goku at Kaioken x20 was 6,000,000 and getting extremely desperate to keep up with Freeza and have a chance at winning. All the while hoping the promise of more power still beyond that was a bluff on Freeza's part.

Now if Freeza has a max of 120,000,000, then that makes his 25% and 50% of full power 30,000,000 and 60,000,000. How is Goku even touching him at 3,000,000 and 6,000,000 then?

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:18 am

Now if Freeza has a max of 120,000,000, then that makes his 25% and 50% of full power 30,000,000 and 60,000,000. How is Goku even touching him at 3,000,000 and 6,000,000 then?

Well, that's why people are saying that Goku's power jumped from 90k to 3m from the Zenkai. That way 3m + KK10 = 30m and 3m + KK20 = 60m and it still matches with Freeza. Thing is, if Goku had appeared to Freeza to be 30 times stronger than Vegeta, he'd have said as much. But only 3 times Vegeta's power, while shocking to him, wouldn't have been as big of a WTF moment, and thus we never saw him utterly and completely shocked that Goku was that much stronger than Vegeta.