LegendarySSJ7 wrote:
15,000,000 / 300,000 = 50.
150,000,000 / 3,000,000 = 50.
Again, it baffles me that you see the latter as such a huge jump when they're both the same increase, only difference being that Goku was never using Kaio-ken until his scuffle with Freeza once he refrained from using his hands.... which was regular Kaio-ken, as Kiriyama pointed out, only for a heartbeat, and not Kaio-ken x10 until Freeza used 50% of his true power.
Well in this case we can chalk it up to interpretation I guess. I think that if Goku could use Kaio-ken x 10 without undo stress that he would likely use this to strengthen himself before changing (i.e. a 5x increase). My evidence there is that Vegeta, who gains his strength without benefit of Kaio-ken, isn't leagues beyond Goku in his SSJ form. This obviously holds no weight if you support the Daizenshuu number, so that just comes down to what side of the debate you are on.
And I won't go off on a list of all the times a character's aura appears and their eyes blank out without it being Kaio-ken (i.e. anyone other than Goku), but it is certainly debateable what Chibi Kiriyama said. They were logical and thought out points, but they were also interpretation. Most of this debate on both sides is, really. That's probably why not much headway is made by either side.
Also, I'd like to request something, if I may. There's been some other numbers thrown around (Piccolo over a million, Vegeta 3,000,000) but there's not much explanation on where they came from - If anyone could list out all the stated power levels and where they were stated, that's be nice
Those are mainly extrapolations. Example- Piccolo. 2nd form Freeza was just over a million, and Piccolo fought a back and forth battle before shedding his battle gear. So Piccolo was stronger than 2nd form Freeza. Exactly how much so isn't known. We don't have an exact level for 3rd form Freeza. In the anime, Piccolo briefly walks all over Freeza. In the manga, Freeza goes right into form 3 after Piccolo takes off the cape and turban.
No it is not too high. Not when you get a beating so austere that not only do you have your body switched, but battered to heck in two different instances to the point where the body is nearly incapable of functioning. It's a 33x increase.
So you counter well laid out and explained comparison of other situations in the manga with "it's not because it's not?"
For one, body swtiching has nothing to do with Zenkai. If that was the case, Ginyu would have experienced quite a rush while in Goku's body, considering he wasn't injured at the time but had already gone through the switch.
Secondly, "battered to heck in two different instances to the point where the body is nearly incapable of functioning" ISN'T 33x. Let's see, Saiya-jin Saga. Goku stresses his body so much that he thinks he's going to fall apart with Kaio-ken x3. This is after already taking a beating. Then he has to use Kaio-ken x3 again, and then Kaio-kenx4, strainging his body past his limits (and expending all of it with his Kamehameha). THEN he faces Oozaru Vegeta and has most of the bones in his body crushed. The guy's body is on the verge of falling apart, and then he's paralyzed. His head is nearly crushed at one point. THIS did not equal a 33x increase (which would have given him a base power of 264k BEFORE gravity training and increased Kaio-ken levels.
And what was the difference between these Earth and Namek injuries? On Earth he lay in a full body caste, and would have taken a LONG time to recuperate without the aid of senzu. On Namek they put him in the tank because they needed him back soon, but he would have recovered from those wounds with a couple of days rest.
The Saibaiman didn't look that smart though, right? They can't even speak. Nappa said that they could compete with Raditz... power-wise anyway. And sheer power isn't quite the only factor in a fight. That might account for Yamcha's apparently easy victory even though they're more or less "on the same level", power-wise.
What does intelligence have to do with the fact that one quicky ki attack dropped the Saibaiman with one blow?
If he doesn't care anyway, that doesn't make much of a difference...
These characters gauge every battle "by the numbers." It's part of their culture. Knowing HOW to gauge the abilities of an adversary or subordinate isn't exactly an outlandish concept. Also, at least in the anime Saiya-jin are known to train with Saibaimen. In that case, this comparison in their powers could just as much come from practical experience. In that case a 300 point difference would have let him kick a Saibaiman's butt (just like Yamcha's one ki attack did).
And let's not forget the dramatic importance of the scene. Taken literally, we are supposed to notice that even the lesser players on the field have trained themselves past the level of the previous overly powerful (at the time) villain. The message was basically, "remember how tough Raditz was? Our heroes are past that." You'd rather get hung up on the definition of equal and overanalyze Nappa's interpretations to say that he really meant "the Saibaimen are kinda similar to Raditz but not really, and I'm a dumbass who doesn't know the difference?"
Backward thinking? ^^;
You miss my point. You trashed the anime's reliability. I'm just pointing out that the only difference between the anime and manga as far as reliability (or content in general) is filler. The Daizenshuu covers filler as well, which means at the very least, they are equal in terms of reliability.
Well, maybe you don't think they are, but I remember another discussion about these "canon levels" where it looked like everything was "canon" in one way or another... which kinda defeats the point of talking about "canon" at all, in my opinon.
That has what to do with this conversation? I mentioned canon levels, I (nor anyone else) has said "everything is canon" here.
Well, between a Daizenshû statement and a fan theory, I just think it's more likely for the former to be correct... especially for something as irrational as the power levels, where the author ends up being the only authority.
My theories are based on what is presented in the author's works. Your statement is based on a completely unverified claim.
There is a difference between extrapolation and guessing.
By the way, did you know that V Jump explained how to convert Babidi-type power levels (I don't remember how the units were called) to Freeza-type power levels? OMG controversial stuff.
Dear lord...I know it'll probably hurt the head...but where could I find this? Sounds...well ridiculous XD
That's a nice break down of Goku's power increases, but Vegeta needs to be factored in as well. When he was almost killed on Earth he went from about 18,000 to 24,000. But later after getting beat down Vegeta went from being stronger than monster Zarbon to totally outclassing Jheese. The increases aren't really consistent. Vegeta who was near death on Earth received a smaller increase than a Vegeta who was able to stand and in a better condition over all.
You're talking about, at best, a 2x increase. We know Vegeta was above 30k at first, but to what extent we don't know (they clocked him while he was still charging). We also know that Ginyu members present were under 60k, since Ginyu Taicho hears about Goku's overwhelming victory and estimates 60k as what would be necessary to drop his troops with ease.
To show my appreciation, I'll only beat them half to death.
