"Power levels" from the Daizenshuu

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:07 pm

Super DC wrote:I should have been more specific. I was talking about Vegeta's beat down from Reacoom not Zarbon. In which he was stronger than monster Zarbon at first and when healed stronger than Jheese. Then with the nap he took, which should be considered part as the same power increase, Vegeta was able to handle Freeza. With Vegeta going from monster Zarbon's level to countering a fully powered Freeza's swing. Yet he nearly died on Earth and received a miniscule power increase when compared to the beat down increase from Reacoom.

Oi. The "power" nap.

That was...wierd. Was it an extension of the previous Zenkai, or a whole new one? One could make points for either. For the sake of argument, I'll assume both. I'm also going to use some generalized estimations. I don't claim these unstated figures to be exact, but I need something within range to make a point.

Firstly, I'm going to go with the general theory that Vegeta vs 1st form Freeza as being in the 250k area. Reasoning: He was significantly out of breath after clashing with Freeza. Freeza was not phased from the clash. For the ones who believe Goku came out of his healing tank at 300k, it gives him the edge on Vegeta in potential (the hero factor). Also, Vegeta is confident that he can beat Freeza with Kuririn and (more importantly) Gohan's help, not that he can beat Freeza himself. So there had to be a gap of some kind anyway if he was relying on the halfbreed son of the person he hates most. This also gives him room to improve with the whole "increasing Zenkai" thing, as his next one would be about 10x.

If it was ONE Zenkai, from the 30k range, then that's an 8.33x jump.

If it was TWO Zenkai, then...well he toyed with Jiisu, so it's hard to say exactly how much better he was. We do have Ginyu's statement that at 60k one would outclass his henchmen. So I'll just use 60k. Or a 4.2x Zenkai.

Either way, as phenominal as his increases were, they do not in any way, shape, or form, support a 33x increase in power. That's more than triple what Vegeta's final Zenkai was, and that was with benefit of a mortal injury. If the power increase comes from facing and overcoming death, then I think having most of one's internal organs vaporized and then surviving would lend to greater improvement than a standard ass-kicking.

The Chibi Kiriyama · Post by **The Chibi Kiriyama** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:19 pm

Super DC wrote:Either way, as phenominal as his increases were, they do not in any way, shape, or form, support a 33x increase in power. That's more than triple what Vegeta's final Zenkai was, and that was with benefit of a mortal injury. If the power increase comes from facing and overcoming death, then I think having most of one's internal organs vaporized and then surviving would lend to greater improvement than a standard ***-kicking.

The zenkai you speak of only happened once- a zenkai by definition is the auto-evolution increase a Saiyan experiences by coming to near-death status. If anything it proves the notion correct- Vegeta went from being run in the ground by Reacoom to making Freeza (around 530,000 at the time) worry about his power. The only thing that alludes to a 'power nap' is the Toei animation filler scene.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:44 pm

The Chibi Kiriyama wrote: The zenkai you speak of only happened once- a zenkai by definition is the auto-evolution increase a Saiyan experiences by coming to near-death status. If anything it proves the notion correct- Vegeta went from being run in the ground by Reacoom to making Freeza (around 530,000 at the time) worry about his power. The only thing that alludes to a 'power nap' is the Toei animation filler scene.

I love how everyone ignores me when I make a point...

"If it was ONE Zenkai, from the 30k range, then that's an 8.33x jump. "

I addressed it from both angles to avoid a response like "it was one" or "no it was two."

Oh, and if our core debate is on a Daizenshuu only power level, from a volume that acknowledges filler as well, then a filler seen isn't necessarily 100% irrelevant. We aren't arguing pure manga by the very nature of the numbers that are contested.

The Chibi Kiriyama · Post by **The Chibi Kiriyama** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:43 pm

Onikage725 wrote:
The Chibi Kiriyama wrote: The zenkai you speak of only happened once- a zenkai by definition is the auto-evolution increase a Saiyan experiences by coming to near-death status. If anything it proves the notion correct- Vegeta went from being run in the ground by Reacoom to making Freeza (around 530,000 at the time) worry about his power. The only thing that alludes to a 'power nap' is the Toei animation filler scene.
I love how everyone ignores me when I make a point...

"If it was ONE Zenkai, from the 30k range, then that's an 8.33x jump. "

I addressed it from both angles to avoid a response like "it was one" or "no it was two."

Oh, and if our core debate is on a Daizenshuu only power level, from a volume that acknowledges filler as well, then a filler seen isn't necessarily 100% irrelevant. We aren't arguing pure manga by the very nature of the numbers that are contested.

Well, if you did you have a rather odd way of stating such. If you read it properly, anyways, I was just making a statement with your post as the catalyst. That aside, the Daizenshuu deals with the manga. What happens in the anime doesn't have an impact on the manga (for the most part- Burdock is a canon character because of anime influence). I'm not saying filler is 'bad' or anything childish such as that. I'm just simply stating that the pretense of most filler extends the storyline in a way that does not necessarily reflect the original intention, and when working to find the original intention only works to hinder the progression of the analysis.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:09 am

Well, if you did you have a rather odd way of stating such. If you read it properly, anyways, I was just making a statement with your post as the catalyst.

Do you even bother to read the posts before replying to them? He makes it CLEAR both times he adresses the power increases as to whether he's referring to it being one or two increases in that instance. He even put ONE and TWO in all caps so that you'd notice it easier. Seriously, thus just further proves my point that you're not even bothering to pay attention to the arguement and just ranting because you know you've got nothing...

That aside, the Daizenshuu deals with the manga. What happens in the anime doesn't have an impact on the manga (for the most part- Burdock is a canon character because of anime influence).

God, do you even read your OWN posts? The Daizenshuu covers the series, peroid. Manga and Anime both. Hell, the time-line in the Daizenshuu covers the ANIME specifically, as it lists filler bits and MOVIES. You can NOT claim that the Daizneshuu deals with JUST the manga. The anime is as offical as the Daizenshuu and the Daizenshuu has as many errors as the anime. If you're going to accept something from the Daizenshuu at face value then you must do the same for the anime, this then leads to the Vegeta power-nap. If you want to discount the power-nap, fine, but you must then discount the Daizneshuu only powerlevels as well. They are just as much filler as the nap.

filler extends the storyline in a way that does not necessarily reflect the original intention

And the Full Power Freeza and SSJ Goku powers DO reflect the original intention, exactly as Toriyama-sama intended it to be displayed, right down to the last digit?

LegendarySSJ7 · Post by **LegendarySSJ7** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:36 pm

Xyex wrote:They are just as much filler as the nap.

If they're unequivocally as much of a filler as the nap, they why was that particular Daizenshuu written by BIRD STUDIOS themselves, AKA Toriyama-sensei's staff? And then sanctioned by the man himself...

Calm down. The Daizenshuu has the general ranges of numbers right, not the actual numbers.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:38 pm

Calm down Xyex. All you're doing is making your side look worse. You're typically much more calm, collected, and respectful than this...

superstar · Post by **superstar** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:15 pm

Xyex wrote:
God, do you even read your OWN posts? The Daizenshuu covers the series, peroid. Manga and Anime both. Hell, the time-line in the Daizenshuu covers the ANIME specifically, as it lists filler bits and MOVIES. You can NOT claim that the Daizneshuu deals with JUST the manga. The anime is as offical as the Daizenshuu and the Daizenshuu has as many errors as the anime. If you're going to accept something from the Daizenshuu at face value then you must do the same for the anime, this then leads to the Vegeta power-nap. If you want to discount the power-nap, fine, but you must then discount the Daizneshuu only powerlevels as well. They are just as much filler as the nap.

filler extends the storyline in a way that does not necessarily reflect the original intention

LegendarySSJ7 Posted:If they're unequivocally as much filler as the nap, they why was that particular Daizenshuu written by BIRD STUDIOS themselves, AKA Toriyama-sensei's staff? And then sanctioned by the man himself...

Xyex, Why would you argue or even debate with something that is Official and Canon to both the Manga and Anime? Toriyama has many errors in his manga as well.

It depends what kind of filler you are talking about, some filler actually HELPS explain the storyline or a characters power in detail other fillers are just to save time like Garlic Junior, or the Driver's license.

Oh BTW, I doubt that nap Vegeta took had anything to do with his power, he was just tired and exhausted.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:22 pm

superstar wrote:It depends what kind of filler you are talking about, some filler actually HELPS explain the storyline or a characters power in detail other fillers are just to save time like Garlic Junior, or the Driver's license.

Never lump the awesomeness of Diver's License Episode with that chump Garlic Jr.

Oh BTW, I doubt that nap Vegeta took had anything to do with his power, he was just tired and exhausted.

Exhausted to the point of breaking down, then getting a Zenkai from getting fully rested, maybe?

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:26 pm

Fully rested? He slept for like 20 minutes...

superstar · Post by **superstar** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:34 pm

Rocketman wrote:
superstar wrote:It depends what kind of filler you are talking about, some filler actually HELPS explain the storyline or a characters power in detail other fillers are just to save time like Garlic Junior, or the Driver's license.
Never lump the awesomeness of Diver's License Episode with that chump Garlic Jr.

Oh BTW, I doubt that nap Vegeta took had anything to do with his power, he was just tired and exhausted.
Exhausted to the point of breaking down, then getting a Zenkai from getting fully rested, maybe?

Yeah, I kind of likes the Garlic Junior filler.

Also that nap was nothing more than that, a nap. Vegeta was just exhausted.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:39 pm

Duo wrote:Calm down Xyex. All you're doing is making your side look worse. You're typically much more calm, collected, and respectful than this...

It just feels like I've been banging my head against the wall this thread for all the good anything's been.

Also that nap was nothing more than that, a nap. Vegeta was just exhausted.

How? Why? He'd just had a Senzu. He'd come no where near even fully exerting his power after that. He had NO reason to be worn out. None. And yet, he was. That's abnormal to say the least. To say it has nothing to do with his power increase is... ridiculous.

If they're unequivocally as much of a filler as the nap, they why was that particular Daizenshuu written by BIRD STUDIOS themselves, AKA Toriyama-sensei's staff? And then sanctioned by the man himself...

And the anime was developed by Toei with Toriyama-sama's full approval. I fail to see the point you were trying to make?

Xyex, Why would you argue or even debate with something that is Official and Canon to both the Manga and Anime? Toriyama has many errors in his manga as well.

'Canon' or not doesn't make it right.

Fully rested? He slept for like 20 minutes...

Hence calling it a "power nap". 20 minutes is more than enough time to fully rest up and be ready to go for several hours. Just ask Julie Chen (Big Brother host), power naps are all she's gotten for the last few years, last I heard.

LegendarySSJ7 · Post by **LegendarySSJ7** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:04 pm

Xyex wrote:And the anime was developed by Toei with Toriyama-sama's full approval. I fail to see the point you were trying to make?

Akira Toriyama had utterly no influence on the anime, aside from approving the creation of it. TOEI were the potent ones there (naturally), regarding their adaptation.

Akira Toriyama approved the general ranges of power levels given in the Daizenshuu, as written by his staff, all the ones who brought the Manga into fruition, very pellucidly. The Daizenshuu is far more canon than the Anime will ever be....

superstar · Post by **superstar** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:40 pm

Xyex wrote:How? Why? He'd just had a Senzu. He'd come no where near even fully exerting his power after that. He had NO reason to be worn out. None. And yet, he was. That's abnormal to say the least. To say it has nothing to do with his power increase is... ridiculous.

So Vegeta running around Namek for more than 3 days and having battles which included him getting his ass kicked by some Ginyu members then having a battle with some more Ginyu members does not result in him being tired and needing to rest.

'Canon' or not doesn't make it right.

Yes it is right. I will go with what is Official rather someone else's opinions..

Toriyam a approved the anime and he even suggesdted some scenes, did you even read the Interviews I posted from the Daizenshuu's.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:54 pm

superstar wrote:Toriyam a approved the anime and he even suggesdted some scenes, did you even read the Interviews I posted from the Daizenshuu's.

You mean that one that was fake?

The argument seems to have turned to discussing whether Vegeta's 'nap' was a separate 'zenkai', part of the same one (if he hadn't fully healed between the sensu and the nap), or just a nap.

Is there any reason to think that nap was a separate zenkai? Between the sensu and the nap did he get hurt? if so, then we could say it was a separate zenkai.

If not - then whether it's part of the same zenkai, or just a cat-nap, doesn't matter. Either way his power didn't increase because of it.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:55 pm

So Vegeta running around Namek for more than 3 days and having battles which included him getting his ass kicked by some Ginyu members then having a battle with some more Ginyu members does not result in him being tired and needing to rest.

No, because, as I said, he'd just had a senzu. He was ALREADY fully recovered. Then he went and did what, to us, would be like taking a walk around the block.

Is there any reason to think that nap was a separate zenkai? Between the sensu and the nap did he get hurt? if so, then we could say it was a separate zenkai.

If not - then whether it's part of the same zenkai, or just a cat-nap, doesn't matter. Either way his power didn't increase because of it.

The thing is, while he was healed, he seemed to be utterly worn and in a bit of pain too. Something odd was up with him so it's entirely possible his power was boosted further.

My personal thought is that his Zenkai was kind of 'shorting out'. The stuff that caused the power boost was still flowing through him and it was sort of overloading/damaging his body. Possibly a side-effect of having gotten his ass kicked several times and recently, spent a good ammount of time in a regen tank recently, and then being suddenly introduced the instant healing of the Senzu's. His body would have been aclimated to the slower healing of the tanks, so the Senzu's effects would have been quite the shock to his system by comparison.

But that's just my own thoughts and there's really nothing to support that one way or the other. Just a simple fan theory.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:15 pm

Two. One. Does it matter? Even jumping from one zenkai from the 30k range, it wouldn't even be a 10x increase. He had to be carried out of harms way by Gohan, so I don't see how he was in any better shape than Goku was after the Ginyu fights. And yet, not even close to a 33x increase. And this is Mr. Super Elite. The fighting genius of the Saiya-jin race, hailing from the purest and strongest bloodline. Goku trains like a maniac to overcome boundaries, but we shouldn't overlook the fact that Nappa with a Daiz stated PL of 4k was considered top brass by Saiya-jin standards, and Vegeta dwarfed him completely at series start. The guy's truly something else.

superstar · Post by **superstar** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:07 pm

Xyex wrote:
No, because, as I said, he'd just had a senzu. He was ALREADY fully recovered. Then he went and did what, to us, would be like taking a walk around the block.

No, Vegeta took a Zenzu before he fought and he had a long battle with Jeece and Captain Ginyu, yet he got tired. That is not a Zenkai power up

You mean that one that was fake?

No, I am talking about the Interviews from the Daizenshuu's those are VERY REAL.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:26 pm

superstar wrote:
No, Vegeta took a Zenzu before he fought and he had a long battle with Jeece and Captain Ginyu, yet he got tired. That is not a Zenkai power up

Yet one would think that if he initially had the power to ruffle Freeza's feathers, laying hands on Jiisu and a very underwhelming swapped-Ginyu wouldn't have tuckered him out much. But if the nap itself was filler, I'd still go with the idea that for some reason or another the Zenkai from the senzu took some time to fully express itself (unless in the manga he didn't express any fatigue. I don't have that volume as of yet to check this instant).

All the same...even with one Zenkai, its drastically less than 33x. Why is it that instead of addressing that, everyone gets hung up on if it was one or two?

superstar · Post by **superstar** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:37 pm

Onikage725 wrote:Yet one would think that if he initially had the power to ruffle Freeza's feathers, laying hands on Jiisu and a very underwhelming swapped-Ginyu wouldn't have tuckered him out much. But if the nap itself was filler, I'd still go with the idea that for some reason or another the Zenkai from the senzu took some time to fully express itself (unless in the manga he didn't express any fatigue. I don't have that volume as of yet to check this instant).

All the same...even with one Zenkai, its drastically less than 33x. Why is it that instead of addressing that, everyone gets hung up on if it was one or two?

Vegeta had a zenkai power up after the Rekoome fight, that was all. Vegeta got extremely powerful after that near death experience and was strong enough to take on Freeza's 530,000 power.