"Power levels" from the Daizenshuu

[desirecampbell]

Yet one would think that if he initially had the power to ruffle Freeza's feathers, laying hands on Jiisu and a very underwhelming swapped-Ginyu wouldn't have tuckered him out much. But if the nap itself was filler, I'd still go with the idea that for some reason or another the Zenkai from the senzu took some time to fully express itself (unless in the manga he didn't express any fatigue. I don't have that volume as of yet to check this instant).

All the same...even with one Zenkai, its drastically less than 33x. Why is it that instead of addressing that, everyone gets hung up on if it was one or two?

Vegeta had a zenkai power up after the Rekoome fight, that was all. Vegeta got extremely powerful after that near death experience and was strong enough to take on Freeza's 530,000 power.

Vegeta experienced a 'zenkai' after fighting with Zarbon (the first time), after fighting Recoome, and after Krillin shot him.

Before the 'Recoome zankai', Vegeta couldn't take down Recoome (who we know is less than 60,000). When he first fights Freeza he is not strong enough to face him alone.

Vegeta realizes that he is glad to have the support of Kuririn and Gohan, and the three of them face Freeza. With their combined strengths, they just may stand a chance to defeat him.

Still he insist that Freeza transform. Then he sees Freeza attack Gohan and Krillin. Vegeta wets himself.

After Piccolo shows up, Vegeta gets the zenkai from Krillin. By this time, Freeza's in his fourth form. Vegeta thinks himself a Super Saiyan at this point (of course he thought Gohan might be a Super Saiyan too, and earlier he thought the same about Goku). He tries to take on Freeza but basically gets smashed into pudding.

Then Goku shows up. Vegeta thinks Goku's a Super Saiyan (got a one track mind, this boy) and then he dies.

My point is that Vegeta thinks a lot of things - he's rarely correct. I don't see any reason to think that Vegeta ever got close to Freeza's 530,000. I think (at very best) Vegeta might have gotten up to a couple hundred K. We never see him fight Freeza's lower forms. And the only time we see him fight Freeza, he gets manhandled. All we know for sure is that he's strong enough to take down Jheese plus a zenkai.

[LegendarySSJ7]

When he first fights Freeza he is not strong enough to face him alone

For someone who wasn't strong enough to face Freeza in his 1st form, he did a swell job at keeping him at bay and going toe-to-toe with him, where Freeza had powered up to what could be and probably is somewhere around the 500,000 range - perhaps 530,000, Freeza's 1st form's full power power level, as stated by Freeza himself. For Vegeta to be able to do this, he'd need to be somewhere around the 500,000 range at that point in time, rather than a "couple hundred K", otherwise he wouldn't have shattered Freeza's scouter if he was just at around 180,000.

He tries to take on Freeza but basically gets smashed into pudding.

He also manages to tract Freeza's deathbeam, something Piccolo obviously was inept at doing. To do this, he'd have to, by far, be above Freeza's 3rd form, considering the "great power increase" comment between each transformation Freeza made (and then the fact that Freeza was putting tangible effort into fending off Vegeta's full power Chi blast judging by the seriousness in his facial expression, even if only with one, single solitary kick, during that particular bout), even though Freeza was still significantly stronger.

And the only time we see him fight Freeza, he gets manhandled.

Apparently not the case when he stepped up and went against a powered up first form Freeza...

[superstar]

.Vegeta experienced a 'zenkai' after fighting with Zarbon (the first time), after fighting Recoome, and after Krillin shot him.

Before the 'Recoome zankai', Vegeta couldn't take down Recoome (who we know is less than 60,000). When he first fights Freeza he is not strong enough to face him alone..

Your point being?

Vegeta's last Zenkai was after the Rekoome fight (near death and had a Zenzu bean) After that he fought and was tired so he took a nap. Nothing more than plot in the story. So Krilin and Gohan could sneak the Dragonballs away amd make a wish.

Vegeta handled Freeza's first Transformation, and as Freeza noticed Vegeta's power kept rising, so much that it broke his scouter. Vegeta was at least as strong as Freeza's first form or possibly stronger.

[Xyex]

Yet one would think that if he initially had the power to ruffle Freeza's feathers, laying hands on Jiisu and a very underwhelming swapped-Ginyu wouldn't have tuckered him out much. But if the nap itself was filler, I'd still go with the idea that for some reason or another the Zenkai from the senzu took some time to fully express itself (unless in the manga he didn't express any fatigue. I don't have that volume as of yet to check this instant).

All the same...even with one Zenkai, its drastically less than 33x. Why is it that instead of addressing that, everyone gets hung up on if it was one or two?

Vegeta had a zenkai power up after the Rekoome fight, that was all. Vegeta got extremely powerful after that near death experience and was strong enough to take on Freeza's 530,000 power.

Except Vegeta didn't really fight against Freeza's 530,000 power. Freeza was still at his 'resting' level up until the point he broke off his armor. And I doubt he was even at his full power then. Remember, Freeza didn't transform into his second form because he had to, he did it because Vegeta was demanding to see it and he wanted to show the Saiya-jin Prince just what it was he was fighting.

[Super DC]

Freeza did power up against Vegeta though. Piccolo mentions it by the likes of saying, his chi is getting greater. Freeza must be getting ready to fight. It's along those lines. I would suggest that Freeza was at full power. He was extremly pissed before and during his power up. There would be no reason for Freeza to hold back, he was humilated and wanted to get pay back on Vegeta.

[superstar]

Yet one would think that if he initially had the power to ruffle Freeza's feathers, laying hands on Jiisu and a very underwhelming swapped-Ginyu wouldn't have tuckered him out much. But if the nap itself was filler, I'd still go with the idea that for some reason or another the Zenkai from the senzu took some time to fully express itself (unless in the manga he didn't express any fatigue. I don't have that volume as of yet to check this instant).

All the same...even with one Zenkai, its drastically less than 33x. Why is it that instead of addressing that, everyone gets hung up on if it was one or two?

Vegeta had a zenkai power up after the Rekoome fight, that was all. Vegeta got extremely powerful after that near death experience and was strong enough to take on Freeza's 530,000 power.

Except Vegeta didn't really fight against Freeza's 530,000 power. Freeza was still at his 'resting' level up until the point he broke off his armor. And I doubt he was even at his full power then. Remember, Freeza didn't transform into his second form because he had to, he did it because Vegeta was demanding to see it and he wanted to show the Saiya-jin Prince just what it was he was fighting.

Do you know what you are saying? Vegeta fought Freeza 530,000 full power in that first form.

[Drunken Master]

Vegeta didn't even fight, he just grappled with Freeza, and Freeza transformed because he loves being leagues ahead of people. He loves complete domination...Vegeta was close, but not THAT close in my humble opinion. Look at him, he was sweating his balls off when he was grappling with Freeza. I'm also sure his veins were all sticking out (Bad memory). Freeza's first form was more than enough to beat Vegeta if they actually fought, IMO. Freeza is just a showoff.

[Tyro]

Freeza doesn't have to show veins or sweat to mean he was at full power in any form but his final. Once he reaches his full power in one form, he can choose to stop there, or go to his next suppression state. Just like in his his first form when fighting Vegeta. No sweat, veins, expression of strain, nothing except the shock of Vegeta actually being on par with him while giving it his all thus causing Freeza's scouter to break.

When he goes from the third suppression to the second, he had no sweat, or veins in his head and yet, we know he went past his first forms full power.

[Onikage725]

All the same...even with one Zenkai, its drastically less than 33x. Why is it that instead of addressing that, everyone gets hung up on if it was one or two?

Vegeta had a zenkai power up after the Rekoome fight, that was all.

Well thank you for illustrating my point. I specifically said, and now numerous times, that I'd factored one zenkai as a possibility and it still comes up short. The defense to this claim has been "it was one zenkai." Can we move past that please? I think it's been well established by now.

Freeza doesn't have to show veins or sweat to mean he was at full power in any form but his final. Once he reaches his full power in one form, he can choose to stop there, or go to his next suppression state. Just like in his his first form when fighting Vegeta. No sweat, veins, expression of strain, nothing except the shock of Vegeta actually being on par with him while giving it his all thus causing Freeza's scouter to break.

When he goes from the third suppression to the second, he had no sweat, or veins in his head and yet, we know he went past his first forms full power.

The point others are trying to make is that Freeza wasn't tired. One doesn't have to sweat to show fatigue. Also, remember when Gohan laced into second form Freeza? He looked hurt at first. That was just shock. They tell us after that the attack didn't actually cause him harm.

Well, first form Freeza wasn't even struck. He tossed a punch, his arm was grabbed. He threw another, it was grabbed. The two pushed and broke off. That's all. When the dust cleared, Vegeta was clearly fatigued and Freeza was just standing there. He even smirks. And Vegeta even says that he can win with the other two helping him.

Vegeta grabbing his arms does not mean he "went toe to toe" with him, anymore than it means he was equal to Rikum simply because he got some flashy attacks in. Before Goku got there, Rikum "looked" beat up but his power was hardly depleted, and all three other combatants were unable to fight.

My point is, just because someone holds off an attack and displays a flashy aura doesn't mean he's exceeding his opponent.

Or would someone care to prove why the king of arrogance would say that he needed Gohan and Kuririn's help (when he was about to kill them moments before due to losing his wish) if he was "on equal footing" with Freeza as it was.

[desirecampbell]

Or would someone care to prove why the king of arrogance would say that he needed Gohan and Kuririn's help (when he was about to kill them moments before due to losing his wish) if he was "on equal footing" with Freeza as it was.

My point exactly. Vegeta doesn't ask for help. Even if he's outmatched, he just doesn't want help.

Vegeta's not really good at distinguishing between "I'm more powerful then ever" and "I'm more powerful than the other guy".

Vegeta wouldn't ask for help if he thought he stood a chance to take Freeza on alone.

[superstar]

Vegeta didn't even fight, he just grappled with Freeza, and Freeza transformed because he loves being leagues ahead of people. He loves complete domination...Vegeta was close, but not THAT close in my humble opinion. Look at him, he was sweating his balls off when he was grappling with Freeza. I'm also sure his veins were all sticking out (Bad memory). Freeza's first form was more than enough to beat Vegeta if they actually fought, IMO. Freeza is just a showoff.

Freeza charging at Vegeta at full speed throwing to punches at Vegeta, Vegeta catches those punches then Freeza tries to overpower Vegeta but does not. Yes Freeza was stuggling in his 530,000 form because you can see it on his face.

The fact of the matter is Freeza could not overpower Vegeta and Vegeta's powerlevel grew probably higher than Freeza's 530,000 because his scouter blew up and Freeza was shocked.

Yeah Freeza could of easily beaten Vegeta in that form.

[Rocketman]

There's only one rational explanation for how Vegeta vs 1st Form Freeza went.

False Super Saiyan.

[Onikage725]

Freeza charging at Vegeta at full speed throwing to punches at Vegeta, Vegeta catches those punches then Freeza tries to overpower Vegeta but does not. Yes Freeza was stuggling in his 530,000 form because you can see it on his face.

The fact of the matter is Freeza could not overpower Vegeta and Vegeta's powerlevel grew probably higher than Freeza's 530,000 because his scouter blew up and Freeza was shocked.

Yeah Freeza could of easily beaten Vegeta in that form.

Freeza was NOT tired. Check the panel immediatley after. Vegeta was worn out. He gave their confrontation his all, and to Freeza it was just an outpouring of power. Want to know why he looked shocked? The last time Freeza checked, Vegeta was 24,000. He was genuinely surprised. Considering that he considered everyone their ants (and himself a dinosaur, to use his own terminology), and that he can't sense ki levels and didn't have a scouter, the idea that he would actually use 100% of his power in attack is absurd. A dinosaur lunging at an ant would be fearsome, but the dinosaur is most certainly not exerting itself with that lunge. Now picture the ant grabs the dinosaur's snout and pushes him back. Do we have a wounded or tired dino? No, but we most certainly have a surprised one. That would be Freeza in this case. He was facing what he thought was 3 weaklings, the strongest of whom was last measured at 24,000. Seeing the Ginyu were gone, he surmised they had gotten tougher somehow, but certainly not beyond him.

Ever see an adult try to take something from a child who didn't want to let go? It's harder than expected, and the adult has to strain a little to get the item. But to suggest the child is as strong as the adult or could take him in a fight is pretty silly. Just because Freeza had more trouble than he anticipated doesn't mean he was losing a battle. He transformed before any real fighting could happen, and he did it, as he pretty much makes clear, just to wipe the smug look off of Vegeta's face.

And considering that form 2 was a million in power, and it took all of one half-hearted blow to sap Vegeta's strength, I seriously can't see how anyone can think he was himself half a million strong.

[Onikage725]

There's only one rational explanation for how Vegeta vs 1st Form Freeza went.

False Super Saiyan.

Not really. Canonicity aside, look at Ten vs Nappa? Ten went to blows with a vastly superior fighter on sheer willpower. There are plenty of instances. Vegeta at first seemed to have the upper hand on Rikum. Goku kept pace with Cpt. Ginyu (without Kaio-ken he was technically at a 30k disadvantage). Even after we stop tracking PL's there are instances where that happens. 50% Freeza knocks SSJ Goku quite a ways. Piccolo embarrasses #20, despite 20 having added a large amount of Piccolo's power to his own before the fight. Goku keeps pace with Perfect Cell, and so on.

A simpler explanation than Giji SSJ is that Freeza didn't throw 100% of his power into the attack, and Vegeta caught him off guard.

[desirecampbell]

So I just went over to you-tub and watched this dub episode (God, that was painful - the vooices, the "music", the dub-lines).

Freeza get's pissed and jumps at Vegeta throws a punch, Vegeta catches it - Freeza throws the other arm, Vegeta catches it. They stand around a bit - the aura around them increases a bit, they make a little crater in the ground.

One could say that Freeza was actually trying here, and thus Vegeta was a match for him, but they'd be overlooking a few key points.

Freeza's not trying
Freeza's throwing fists. He's not even really punching, he's just throwing his arms like a child in a tantrum (which he kind of is). If Freeza was serious about this, he'd try a flurry of attacks, a kick or two, maybe use his tail. Freeza doesn't try anything beyond those two punches.
Also, the crater and the aura that occurs when he and Vegeta are holding hands is much smaller than the display Freeza showed a few minutes earlier (and then he didn't seem to be putting out much effort either). After grappling with Vegeta, Freeza isn't out of breath at all - he's completely calm.
Furthermore, Freeza doesn't hit people when he's serious. When he want's someone dead he blasts them. Quick. Efficient. Clean. He shoots dende, Krillin, Piccolo, and Vegeta when he kills them (well, he almost kills Piccolo).

Vegeta's just holding on
Vegeta knocks away a blast ment for Gohan, Krillin, and Dende. Vegeta's hand is shaking after this (for several seconds too). And this blast is obviously not representative of Freeza's true power.
While grappling with Freeza, Vegeta looks like he's about to shit himself. He's got viens poppin' everywhere, his hairs goin' nuts, he's screaming constantly. As oppossed to Freeza, who's completly calm (well, Freeza was a bit pissed when he attacked, but after the scouter broke he calmed down).


So, I can't see why anyone would think Vegeta's even close to Freeza.

[Rocketman]

So, I can't see why anyone would think Vegeta's even close to Freeza.

Agreed. I think Vegeta was in the 200,000 range.

A simpler explanation than Giji SSJ is that Freeza didn't throw 100% of his power into the attack, and Vegeta caught him off guard.

I guess so. False SSJ is a cooler explanation, though. >_>

[desirecampbell]

So, I can't see why anyone would think Vegeta's even close to Freeza.

Agreed. I think Vegeta was in the 200,000 range.

I don't think he was even that high. The only thing we know is that he's stronger than Jheese (why do I spell it like that? I don't spell the others like that?). And Jheese was weaker than 60,000.

So Vegeta's 60 K or above. We can't really say how strong he is compared to Freeza, because Freeza just doesn't fight with him. Freeza fights him like he's fighting a child. Freeza struggles a bit at first because he underestimated Vegeta. Like if you don't think the milk carton is full and you go to pick it up - you look like a fool who can't pick up milk. That doesn't mean the milk can beat you up - it means you misjudged it.

Personally, I doubt Vegeta's any higher than 70,000.

[LegendarySSJ7]

The dub, let alone the anime has no pertinence in this thread. It is not a deciding factor!

Vegeta? 70,000 at the highest? He managed to shatter Freeza's scouter - Goku powering up to a prolonged Kaio-ken was read to have been at 180,000, and Ginyu's scouter wasn't shattered. There's about a 2.6x difference between 180,000 and 70,000. Vegeta was far above 180,000 whilst grappling with Freeza in his first form after he powered up. Do you really think Vegeta would have kept a 530,000 Freeza at bay at 70,000? Heck, even a 230,000 Freeza!? Someone who's 3.3 to 7.6 fold stronger than him? For some ineffable reason of sorts?

Freeza looked like he was having trouble getting the advantage or just defeating Vegeta in that combat lock to me. Not as strained as Vegeta, alluding that he was indeed the stronger one, but still.

Also, Freeza in his 2nd form was over one million, not a million, and there's nothing wrong with accepting that Vegeta was around the 500,000 mark at full power prior to being healed by Dende....

[superstar]

Freeza was NOT tired. Check the panel immediatley after. Vegeta was worn out. He gave their confrontation his all, and to Freeza it was just an outpouring of power. Want to know why he looked shocked? The last time Freeza checked, Vegeta was 24,000. He was genuinely surprised. Considering that he considered everyone their ants (and himself a dinosaur, to use his own terminology), and that he can't sense ki levels and didn't have a scouter, the idea that he would actually use 100% of his power in attack is absurd. A dinosaur lunging at an ant would be fearsome, but the dinosaur is most certainly not exerting itself with that lunge. Now picture the ant grabs the dinosaur's snout and pushes him back. Do we have a wounded or tired dino? No, but we most certainly have a surprised one. That would be Freeza in this case. He was facing what he thought was 3 weaklings, the strongest of whom was last measured at 24,000. Seeing the Ginyu were gone, he surmised they had gotten tougher somehow, but certainly not beyond him.

Ever see an adult try to take something from a child who didn't want to let go? It's harder than expected, and the adult has to strain a little to get the item. But to suggest the child is as strong as the adult or could take him in a fight is pretty silly. Just because Freeza had more trouble than he anticipated doesn't mean he was losing a battle. He transformed before any real fighting could happen, and he did it, as he pretty much makes clear, just to wipe the smug look off of Vegeta's face.

And considering that form 2 was a million in power, and it took all of one half-hearted blow to sap Vegeta's strength, I seriously can't see how anyone can think he was himself half a million strong.

You wanna know whay Freeza was not breathing hard and Vegeta was? That was ONLY Freeza's first form. Freeza had more power and forms after tha Situation, but Vegeta was as strong or stronger than Freeza's first form. Whay do you think Freeza transformed to his second form right after that?

The point is Vegeta was AS strong or Stronger than Freeza's 530,000 form.

[desirecampbell]

"The dub, let alone the anime has no pertinence in this thread. It is not a deciding factor! "
I haven't seen this part of the manga, If you can show me the pages, I'd be more than happy to review it too, but as it stands the anime shows Vegeta as much weaker than a 530,000 Freeza. Read my points above, does the manga differ from this? Does the manga give any reason to think Vegeta's over 70,000?

"He managed to shatter Freeza's scouter"
So? Scouter's don't seem to be of the highest quality. Scouter's have exploded from far less than 70,000.

"Freeza looked like he was having trouble getting the advantage or just defeating Vegeta in that combat lock to me."
Really? He looked pretty unimpressed to me. He was standing still, very calm. The whole time he didn't seem to exert any effort at all. Unlike Vegeta.

"Also, Freeza in his 2nd form was over one million, not a million, and there's nothing wrong with accepting that Vegeta was around the 500,000 mark at full power prior to being healed by Dende"
Firstly, I was talking only about Vegeta fighting Freeza before Dende healing him. Secondly, there's no reason to assume he was that high when he fought Freeza the second time. He didn't do shit to Freeza that time. He was so outclassed he starts crying.

"You wanna know whay Freeza was not breathing hard and Vegeta was? That was ONLY Freeza's first form. Freeza had more power and forms after tha Situation"
That doesn't make any sense. If Freeza had 'extra power' and wasn't tierd becaus ehe had more transformations - then he shouldn't have seemed tierd when SSj Goku was beating him up before Freeza went 100%.
Just because you can get more power, doesn't mean you have access to it now.

"Vegeta was as strong or stronger than Freeza's first form. Whay do you think Freeza transformed to his second form right after that?"
'Cause Vegeta's an idiot and goaded him into it.

"The point is Vegeta was AS strong or Stronger than Freeza's 530,000 form."
No, he wasn't. If Vegeta was stronger than Freeza (even if Vegeta was close to as powerful as Freeza) Freeza would've transformed to make the battle easier. Piccolo may or may not have been more powerful than Freeza's second form, but because Freeza wasn't walking all over him he decided to transform. Freeza doesn't like to fight - he likes to toy with 'ants'. He is quick to take out anyone who could pose a real threat to him (like Dende), but loves to play with the others.

There's no reason to think that Vegeta was anywhere close to Freeza when tey first fought.



Now, Piccolo seems very impressed with Vegeta's power after Dende heals him. Is there any other indication that Vegeta gets stronger than Piccolo?