"Power levels" from the Daizenshuu

[Duo]

However I still point out that Freeza knew his 2nd form PL.

Doesn't Freeza say something like "If any instrument could read my power, it would measure over a million..." That implies no scouter can read that high, and Freeza is estimating his 2nd Form power by how it feels compared to his 1st Form.

Possibly. It's just as likely he was talking about the fact that there were no scouters around anymore.

I doubt that, he was just putting into numbers how utterly outmatched they were, as if to say "If such technology existed that could possibly fathom my power...". Besides, they didn't rely on scouters, and there's a good chance Freeza realized that.

[Onikage725]

I doubt that, he was just putting into numbers how utterly outmatched they were, as if to say "If such technology existed that could possibly fathom my power...". Besides, they didn't rely on scouters, and there's a good chance Freeza realized that.

Well that is entirely possible. I could see it either way.

However, it doesn't explain why older-model scouters didn't explode immediately upon activation when in his presence, even in first form. WELL above 22,000.

The only answer I can see is that he doesn't supress his power (obviously), so the scouter simply has to read him for what he is. Other characters who start powering up from supressed to true power, or focus energy temporarily beyond their nomral maximum, force the scouter to constantly re-calculate the numbers. In that case it doesn't necessarily matter how much the number is. The scouter is a measuring device, that's all. It's a glorified calculator, radar, and radio, basically. Like any machine, the more you ask it to do in a short amount of time, the more stress you put on it, and the greater the chance of malfunction. Newer models simply had a lesser chance of malfunction.

Also, I'm hung up on Zarbon indicating a malfunction. If a scouter was meant to explode at a certain point, he wouldn't have described it as faulty.

[vl]

I doubt that, he was just putting into numbers how utterly outmatched they were, as if to say "If such technology existed that could possibly fathom my power...". Besides, they didn't rely on scouters, and there's a good chance Freeza realized that.

Thats a great point. No one would have a chance of meausiring his powers anyway. He certanly didn't go second form, called Dodoria and asked him: "Hey get that super unbelievable strong machine that measures so much greater power levels than all the other scouters and show me how super-mega-ultra strong I am."

He himself said that rarely anyone saw his greater forms so it was only what he thought was around his power. He doesn't even give the exact PL, he just says its over one million.

[Duo]

Raditz said his scouter was faulty too. Does that make Gohan's power level not 710 at the time? It was an excuse because he didn't believe what had happened could be true at the time, as did Zarbon.

Also, Freeza is shown to be capable of supressing his power. Remember how he used a fraction against Vegeta in his final form? Or powered up two separate times within his 2nd stage alone?

[Onikage725]

Raditz said his scouter was faulty too. Does that make Gohan's power level not 710 at the time? It was an excuse because he didn't believe what had happened could be true at the time, as did Zarbon.

That's a good point. He could have been referring to the odds of Vegeta being over that level.

Also, Freeza is shown to be capable of supressing his power. Remember how he used a fraction against Vegeta in his final form? Or powered up two separate times within his 2nd stage alone?

Freeza supresses his power by transforming into a lesser form. With everything you mentioned he basically just kept powering up, and up, and up, until he eventually hit his maximum against SSJ Goku. There's no indication that he manually supresses himself aside from transforming. In fact, he claims he HAS to transform to lower his power. The only scene were he uses less power than he's gathered is when he drops out of 100% "muscle-mode" to toy with Gohan. However, that scene is filler and stands as the only indication of Freeza lowering his power.

Also, I think there is a difference between current available power and maximum power level.

I mean, Nappa powered up twice, does that mean he was able to supress his power? Vegeta powers up against Goku, yet he claims on Namek that supressing his power level is something new that he learned on Earth.

Powering up simply adds power to your available "pool," but it doesn't mean that your level itself was lower.

Keep in mind that supression was considered rare by the Freeza gang, yet we see fighters in his service (and I'm not talking about Ginyu, he said he was one of the few who had the knack for it), power up. Obviously it isn't the same thing. The Z senshi are conservative, and they only use what is necessary. Supression is natural to them, part of their training. They find it odd that others can't do this. They're power level pretty much seems to be what they have available at the time. This level raises as they gather power. Look at Goku and Piccolo against Raditz. Their full power was much higher than their base readout (which was the level they battled at before gathering power). Raditz was also clearly surprised that they could raise their levels by gathering and focusing their ki. This wasn't standard fare for the space pirates.

But alright, let's assume 1st form Freeza COULD supress his power to a miniscule, lower-than-Zarbon level, just to keep his scouters from breaking.

That was clearly not the case on Namek. He didn't power up against Nail, or at any point before that. He wrecked him easily. Beyond easily...that wasn't even a fight. And Nail was well above the 22k mark. Which means that Freeza on Namek was very much above the 22k mark, even if he was supressing below 530k. Which means that if Zarbon's scouter couldn't read above 22k, it should have exploded anyway. Or pretty much anytime Freeza did ANYTHING in Zarbon's presence. Considering that we are introduced to "newer" models on Namek, that means the older ones had a period of service. I highly doubt Freeza's top henchman would wear something that would explode anytime he turned it on unless Freeza happened to be purposefully supressing himself.

The evidence supports the machine having trouble with stress and fast calculation. Maybe the scouter had trouble doing these calculations past the 22k point and that's why we see the number twice. But to basically assume that any fighter stronger than Zarbon was never measured by scouter prior to Namek because only the newer models could register the number is ridiculous. My old and busted solar-powered calculator can display a number past 22k, and a scouter is a far more sophisticated instrument. However I'm sure if I just started jamming on the keys nonstop I could get the old thing to lock up or crash.

[superstar]

You, sir, are retarded. It's not cheesy, it's accurate. Looking at the episode (like I just did) you can clearly see the Freeza underestimated Vegeta's power. Freeza was not overwhelmed, he was surprised.

So what if Freeza was surprised! Yet he still tried with ALL OF HIS MIGHT at 530,000 and COULD NOT LAY A DAMN HAND ON VEGETA!!!!!!

It does not take a rocket scientist to see that.

[Tyro]

Freeza supresses his power by transforming into a lesser form. With everything you mentioned he basically just kept powering up, and up, and up, until he eventually hit his maximum against SSJ Goku. There's no indication that he manually supresses himself aside from transforming. In fact, he claims he HAS to transform to lower his power. The only scene were he uses less power than he's gathered is when he drops out of 100% "muscle-mode" to toy with Gohan. However, that scene is filler and stands as the only indication of Freeza lowering his power.

Vegeta: Th-That means... He can control his battle strength...?!

Freeza can suppress himself into different suppression stages but can also power up to the limit of his suppression state. Ex. Powering up against Vegeta in first form, powering up against Gohan after he causes him some pain, powers up against Piccolo after fighting him, and being able to power up in his final form.

Once he reaches his full power in one of his suppressions, he can choose to stay at that certain power or power up more and cause his body to transform into a more powerful form. Overall he can control all the power the comes from each form until he reaches the form's full power then he needs to transform.

[desirecampbell]

So what if Freeza was surprised! Yet he still tried with ALL OF HIS MIGHT at 530,000 and COULD NOT LAY A DAMN HAND ON VEGETA!!!!!!

It does not take a rocket scientist to see that.

Please, please, don't reply without reading the posts. Please. You look like an idiot.

Have you seen this episode? Have you actually witnessed this fight? Freeza isn't trying here - at all. Freeza doesn't use "all of his might".

I'm not explaining it again, reread what I've written. The next time you reply like this I'm just going to insult you.


-edit- I might as well weigh in on the scouter idea too.

It does look like the scouters burst when they read great increases in power - not simply reading a set power level. As stated before, if Certain levels caused the scouters to explode then Dodoria's scouter should have exploded before he read Vegeta's power. If 22,000 was the max, Freeza should've set it off immediately. Even if Freeza can repress his power he was, at that point, still far above 22,000. He doesn't power up between then and when he fights Nail (who Duo said was 42,000).

Though if there are different 'models' of scouters, the new ones may be able to handle increases better than others.

The point being, there's no reason to think that Vegeta was above 180,000 just because Freeza's scouter exploded.

[superstar]

Have you seen this episode? Have you actually witnessed this fight? Freeza isn't trying here - at all. Freeza doesn't use "all of his might".

I have seen the episode more than you have, I have the Original Japanese DVD's. Freeza USES ALL THAT HE GOTS TO TRY and OUT MUSCLE VEGETA in his 530,000 form but he fails. Look at Freeza's face he actually is growling and struggling you must be in denail not to see that. I can tell in your picture that you wear Glasses maybe it is time for a new prescription .

I'm not explaining it again, reread what I've written. The next time you reply like this I'm just going to insult you.

You OVERANALYZE the situation when it is right their in front of your face.

[desirecampbell]

You and your weak argument. I am wondering if you have ever watched or read Dragonball/Z in your life with all the mindless Garbage you post and all. You OVERANALYZE the situation when it is righ their in front of your face.

For Christ's sake... do you not read? What is it you're arguing? That Freeza was going "all out" on Vegeta? He wasn't, you can see that plainly if you watch the episode. Are you arguing that Vegeta was stronger than a fully (530,000) powered up Freeza? No, even if (and he wasn't) Freeza was going "all out" on Vegeta, Freeza still came out of it like nothing happened, while Vegeta was visibly shaken.

Do you actually have anything to say?

Oh, yeah - so no one can call me a liar - you're a moron.


-edit

I have seen the episode more than you have, I have the Original Japanese DVD's. Freeza USES ALL THAT HE GOTS TO TRY and OUT MUSCLE VEGETA in his 530,000 form but he fails. Look at Freeza's face he actually is growling and struggling you must be in denail not to see that. I can tell in your picture that you wear Glasses maybe it is time for a new prescription

Yeah, yeah.. and you have interviews with Toriyama, and he says Gotenks is the strongest, and the characters go faster than light... I really have a lot of faith in you.

[Onikage725]

Vegeta: Th-That means... He can control his battle strength...?!

Freeza can suppress himself into different suppression stages but can also power up to the limit of his suppression state. Ex. Powering up against Vegeta in first form, powering up against Gohan after he causes him some pain, powers up against Piccolo after fighting him, and being able to power up in his final form.

Once he reaches his full power in one of his suppressions, he can choose to stay at that certain power or power up more and cause his body to transform into a more powerful form. Overall he can control all the power the comes from each form until he reaches the form's full power then he needs to transform.

Then show me one scene where he supresses his power BELOW what he's currently got.

Just because a character powers up doesn't mean he supresses his power level. Again, Nappa and Vegeta on Earth. They weren't too familiar with the concept, and it isn't until after the battle that Vegeta practices supression. Yet both characters power up on Earth.

The ONLY times we are given an incremental power range on Freeza is in the Daizenshuu and it's for 50% and 100% final form. And two problems with using these to illustrate your point- technically one could be a stickler about them not being in the manga. there is a a more logical reason. When Freeza increased to 100% it was practically another transformation. His body underwent a change. He didn't change into a whole new form, but the current form changed it's shape to alter the power.

So again, there is absolutely no proof that Freeza didn't simply fight with what he had, and increase that amount as needed until he topped off. Not ONCE did he show the ability to supress his aura. without the use of transformation. Nor does he need to "fully charge" to trigger another transformation. He didn't power up at all in his third form to go to fourth. If anything he used ki from his initial change into that form. Transforming isn't triggered by his raising his ki to a certain point. It's triggered by him wanting to change.

I have seen the episode more than you have, I have the Original Japanese DVD's. Freeza USES ALL THAT HE GOTS TO TRY and OUT MUSCLE VEGETA in his 530,000 form but he fails. Look at Freeza's face he actually is growling and struggling you must be in denail not to see that. I can tell in your picture that you wear Glasses maybe it is time for a new prescription.

Wow. Wiki-star is that you? First off, the original DVD's? Those would be the Dragonbox releases, so have fun with your lack of subttiles. Also funny that those came out in 2k3 and you're acting like it gives you some edge in experience. If it's a case of having seen the ep more, the Simmons-translated US release has been around more. And it's not like the animation is different.

Oh, unless you have badly subtitled Chinese bootlegs! *claps*

Oh, and to stray a little bit towards the topic, a character blocking an attack does not indicate an dead equal match. Freeza later grapples with Goku, even wins the little grappling match, and he's clerly weaker than Goku. Goku later has a pushing contest with Cell, and Goku says himself that he couldn't take Cell. The indicator in this fight is the very next panel/scene where Freeza is calm and unphased and Vegeta is huffing for air. I think one must show actual signs of fatigue in order to be considered fatigued, no?

[superstar]

For Christ's sake... do you not read? What is it you're arguing? That Freeza was going "all out" on Vegeta? He wasn't, you can see that plainly if you watch the episode. Are you arguing that Vegeta was stronger than a fully (530,000) powered up Freeza? No, even if (and he wasn't) Freeza was going "all out" on Vegeta, Freeza still came out of it like nothing happened, while Vegeta was visibly shaken.

Do you actually have anything to say?

Oh, yeah - so no one can call me a liar - you're a moron.


-edit

Yeah, yeah.. and you have interviews with Toriyama, and he says Gotenks is the strongest, and the characters go faster than light... I really have a lot of faith in you.

All of your questions have been answered and you were wrong. You just tried to OVERANALYZE info that was not even their. Vegeta was AS strong or STRONGER than Freeza's 530,000 form.

[desirecampbell]

All of your questions have been answered and you were wrong. You just tried to OVERANALYZE info that was not even their. Vegeta was AS strong or STRONGER than Freeza's 530,000 form.

You're a fucking douchebag.

I've explained it, others have explained it. You're not listening, you douchebag.

I can't believe you keep doing this. I am not repeating myself again, I have bent over backwards for fuck-tards here too many times. Read the fucking thread, then apologize for being a fucking douchebag, you fucking douchebag.


Douchebag!

-edit- I'm done with you, Superstar. Until you admit your douchebaggery I'm not replying to your posts here. I'll let EX handle you (as I should have in the first place).

[superstar]

All of your questions have been answered and you were wrong. You just tried to OVERANALYZE info that was not even their. Vegeta was AS strong or STRONGER than Freeza's 530,000 form.

You're a fucking douchebag.

I've explained it, others have explained it. You're not listening, you douchebag.

I can't believe you keep doing this. I am not repeating myself again, I have bent over backwards for fuck-tards here too many times. Read the fucking thread, then apologize for being a fucking douchebag, you fucking douchebag.


Douchebag!

-edit- I'm done with you, Superstar. Until you admit your douchebaggery I'm not replying to your posts here. I'll let EX handle you (as I should have in the first place).

My points are correct you have yet to disproove them. Let EX handle me, I have done no insulting and I provided facts tjat you could NOT disproove.

You have lost your composure because you are insulting me when I have presented facts.

[Xyex]

Desire, calm down man. I can understand the frustration but that's not going to help. It's just going to end up getting you warned or banned, not Superstar.

And Superstar, putting words in call caps doesn't make you right.

Also, don't put responses inside quotes, please. Those go after the quotes boxes, not in them. It's annoying. Anyway....

Look at Freeza's face he actually is growling and struggling you must be in denail not to see that.

That has nothing to do with him not being able to over power Vegeta. At that point he was still highly pissed. People growl and bear their teeth and through temper tantrums when their pissed. That's what Freeza was doing.

My points are correct you have yet to disproove them. Let EX handle me, I have done no insulting and I provided facts tjat you could NOT disproove.

You've not presented a single fact. You've taken your own opinion and presented it as fact despite contradicting evidence presented by others (evidence which you have blissfully ignore at that).

You have lost your composure because you are insulting me when I have presented facts.

Admittedly, he's kind of gone over the deep end. But dealing with you wouldn't make that difficult. You've presented no facts, ignored the facts presented, and continued to state your opinion (which is disproved by fact) as fact. At this point there's no longer any use in 'debating' with you on the topic because it is obvious that you don't want to admit you were wrong.

[vl]

Vegeta wasn't stronger than Freeza's first form, but there is no evidence of him not being pretty close. No matter how reserved Freeza was on the first two punches, Vegeta blocked them. He couldn't have done that without his PL being at least over 180,000.

Just look on how PL worked, especially in the Frezza saga. A 24,000 Vegeta could beat Kiwi(18,000) and Dodoria(20,000 I think) without a problem. That means he had 20% adventage over Dodoria. And 20% less than 530,000 is 424,000. Now lets say Frezza wasn't really tryng and put only half his strenght in that punch. That would make Vegeta still more than 172,000 if he wouldn't want to get his ass kicked.

And Vegeta isn't dumb. He could sense power levels by then, and he was sure he could beat Frezza with the help of Krillin and Gohan. He certanly didnh't want to attack a 530,000 Frezza with three fighters that are under 100,000. Plus, he probably calculated Frezza's Transformation in that too, though he got that a little wrong .

[superstar]

That has nothing to do with him not being able to over power Vegeta. At that point he was still highly pissed. People growl and bear their teeth and through temper tantrums when their pissed. That's what Freeza was doing.

Yeah Freeza was Growling and grunting and Grinding his teeth while trying to have both of his punches connect and crush Vegeta's face. I guess he was mad when he found out he was not stronger than vegeta bexcause he could not overpower him.

You've not presented a single fact. You've taken your own opinion and presented it as fact despite contradicting evidence presented by others (evidence which you have blissfully ignore at that).

Oh really...

Freeeza powring up to his max in his first form 530,000

Yet he attacked Vegeta and tried to land TWO punches and Failed both times.

Freeza grunting and struggling trying to overpower Vegeta BUT HE COULD NOT DO IT IN HIS MAX IN HIS FIRST FORM!

Feeza's Damn SCOUTER blew up because Vegeta's power was growing during the DAMN STRUGGLE!!

What the hell are you talking about?

Admittedly, he's kind of gone over the deep end. But dealing with you wouldn't make that difficult. You've presented no facts, ignored the facts presented, and continued to state your opinion (which is disproved by fact) as fact. At this point there's no longer any use in 'debating' with you on the topic because it is obvious that you don't want to admit you were wrong.

I am pissed as well, I am wondering if what facts that you or anyone else here had presented besides you guys ignoring what's in front of you.

[Duo]

There appear to be 3 sides in this debate at this point.

1) People who believe Vegeta was near Freeza's first form maximum power.

2) People who don't.

3) Superstar, who's just making group 1 look bad and generally ticking everyone off.

Seriously man, act a bit more mature before something regrettable happens and this whole thing is screwed up for the mature debaters everyone else appears to be.

[superstar]

There appear to be 3 sides in this debate at this point.

1) People who believe Vegeta was near Freeza's first form maximum power.

2) People who don't.

3) Superstar, who's just making group 1 look bad and generally ticking everyone off.

Seriously man, act a bit more mature before something regrettable happens and this whole thing is screwed up for the mature debaters everyone else appears to be.

Oh really? So I get singled out because I state Facts and have yet to COMPRAMISE with everyone? That does not make any sense.

[Jerseymilk]

I can't believe I'm stepping in here, but.....

Superstar: What you are presenting is not facts, but theories. That's all they have remained so far since you have not provided any concrete evidence to validate them.

For example, your theory, and yes that is what it is at this time, "a theory", on Freeza's growling and grunting. You say it's because he was having a hard time against Vegeta, but you see that is just what you took from it. Basically how *you* saw it. Other people took it as him just being mad still. Or perhaps just showing his hate for Vegeta. Therefore it's a subjective conclusion.

The same can be said for your theory about the scouter. Many here have thrown out an alternate theory that it may have been an older model or that the speed of power climbs make them blow up, not the amount. Once again we see that people have read different things into your examples.

So to conclude and reiterate my point. What you have provided are theories. Until you can undoubtedly prove them with cold, hard evidence, please refrain from insisting they're "fact'.