"Power levels" from the Daizenshuu

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:25 am

Wow, 10 pages of flames.

This thread is so getting locked.

Ricochet0082 · Post by **Ricochet0082** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:14 am

In episode 077, "Birth of the Mightiest Warrior? Nail and Piccolo Merge", Freeza does indeed growl and grind his teeth at Vegeta, but only because Vegeta and company used up the Dragon Balls before Freeza could. He's pissed not because of Vegeta's strength, but because he can't get his wish.

The scenes where Freeza is firing his ki blasts at Vegeta appears to be done so for his amusement. He seems to be just toying with Vegeta, making him sweat.

Watching the episode, I saw no evidence of Vegeta beating or matching Freeza's power.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:30 am

I just think it's funny that a debate about SSJ Goku/100% Freeza's Daizenshuu PL's has dissolved into a multi-page war about scouters and whether or not Freeza in 1st form was angry

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:14 am

Onikage725 wrote:I just think it's funny that a debate about SSJ Goku/100% Freeza's Daizenshuu PL's has dissolved into a multi-page war about scouters and whether or not Freeza in 1st form was angry

And that's exactly why Mike(EX) hates these kinds of threads. Since someone always ends up in them who won't debate in a constructive and/or mature manner.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:52 am

Jerseymilk wrote:
And that's exactly why Mike(EX) hates these kinds of threads. Since someone always ends up in them who won't debate in a constructive and/or mature manner.

Meh...a debate like this isn't necessarily going to change anyone's mind. However, if both sides lay out their evidence or interpretations in an intelligent manner, it's fun to share viewpoints. It's when the non-constructive "I'm right because I am" crowd shows up that things stop being fun.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:40 am

Onikage725 wrote:
Jerseymilk wrote:
And that's exactly why Mike(EX) hates these kinds of threads. Since someone always ends up in them who won't debate in a constructive and/or mature manner.
Meh...a debate like this isn't necessarily going to change anyone's mind. However, if both sides lay out their evidence or interpretations in an intelligent manner, it's fun to share viewpoints. It's when the non-constructive "I'm right because I am" crowd shows up that things stop being fun.

Which is what has happened. Which is what 99% of the time *does* happen. Hence my statement.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:26 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:
Which is what has happened. Which is what 99% of the time *does* happen. Hence my statement.

Yes but on the flip side, I find your sig humorous. So...score.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:55 pm

Onikage725 wrote:
Jerseymilk wrote:
Which is what has happened. Which is what 99% of the time *does* happen. Hence my statement.
Yes but on the flip side, I find your sig humorous. So...score.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! No drawing attention to it. >>

superstar · Post by **superstar** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:14 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:I can't believe I'm stepping in here, but.....

Superstar: What you are presenting is not facts, but theories. That's all they have remained so far since you have not provided any concrete evidence to validate them.

For example, your theory, and yes that is what it is at this time, "a theory", on Freeza's growling and grunting. You say it's because he was having a hard time against Vegeta, but you see that is just what you took from it. Basically how *you* saw it. Other people took it as him just being mad still. Or perhaps just showing his hate for Vegeta. Therefore it's a subjective conclusion.
No, this is a theory, "Freeza was growling and struggling to land TWO PUNCHES at Vegeta because he was mad at Vegeta and showing his hate?" Freeza was trying to show his hatred by KILLING the damn Saya-jin by beating him to death but he could not do it.

The same can be said for your theory about the scouter. Many here have thrown out an alternate theory that it may have been an older model or that the speed of power climbs make them blow up, not the amount. Once again we see that people have read different things into your examples.

So to conclude and reiterate my point. What you have provided are theories. Until you can undoubtedly prove them with cold, hard evidence, please refrain from insisting they're "fact'.

All of you have been using theories and making up information that is not even their. What all of you are doing is called OVERANALYZING. I used what was shown not made up information like many of you are doing.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:32 pm

I'm looking at the manga right now and he isn't "growling" trying to get to Vegeta with his fists. He launches at Vegeta and says "Now you die!!!!!". Vegeta grabs his hand, struggles and also mutters out "Nn... Nnnh...!!!". Freeza tries to punch again, Vegeta grabs that hand too. Gohan watches and mutters "A... Aaa...!!!" while Kuririn puts up his hands because he is standing close to them. We're shown another panel of Vegeta's face with two veins in his forehead and sweat coming of his face. Next were shown Freeza putting up no effort and his scouter increasing. His scouter pings again and Freeza yells "What?!" then the scouter breaks. The fight finally breaks off and we're shown Vegeta breathing heavily and Freeza just standing there.

All were shown in those pictures are Vegeta and Freeza's bodies shaking while they are locked together.

vl · Post by vl » Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:35 pm

But Frezza does power up(or whatever you want to call it) a few pages before. Than he launches at Vegeta. First of Gohan and Krillin are fascinated by Frezza's power but after Vegeta blocks both of his punches they both believe they can beat him if they work together. So obviouslly they sensed that Vegeta was pretty close to First form Frezza. Team work often doesn't work really well against a stronger opponent unless their PL is stronger when added together.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:54 pm

vl wrote:Team work often doesn't work really well against a stronger opponent unless their PL is stronger when added together.

Uh, teamwork doesn't often work at all. Remember when they tried to fight Nappa?

All we see is Freeza 'power up' for a bit. Now if this is the true extent of his 530,000 power level then we can, in fact, use that to prove he wasn't attacking Vegeta with his full power.

When he does his little show for everyone it's just that, a show. Actually, it's a pretty damn big show. The whole area was quaking, rock faces fell apart, the fucking sea parted - even Dende fell down

When he attacks vegeta, they make a little crater, eventually. Nothing compared to what Freeza did a minute ago all by himself.

And if this power up isn't Freeza's full power (as it appeared to me, because he didn't seem to struggle at all to show such power), that is, if this power up display is less than the power of a 530,000 level fighter, then the force he used against Vegeta was even less.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:21 pm

Hate to point it out, but all that fluff that happens during Freeza's powerup and his "clash" with Vegeta is Anime-exclusive...so many of us probably don't want to use it as evidence.

But we have no evidence saying what level of power Freeza was at. We do know that he powered up and it scared Gohan and Kuririn a whole lot, and they had felt Goku's 180,000 power level just an hour or two before. Kuririn says "I...never..e-even imagined..!" while Gohan is completely speechless

To me, this indicates Freeza was at or somewhere very close to his full power, plus, right before, he says "Let you remind you that I am Freeza!!" which I think he was trying to terrify his opponents to the greatest extent possible before slaughtering them.

Now, Vegeta is able to hold this Freeza at bay, but is clearly at a disadvantage and has to exert himself much more. Also, if he were as strong or stronger, he wouldn't have said he needed the brats in order to win.

Also, Freeza doesn't powerup when he sheds his armor, the Anime just dragged the whole scene out of one frame, in which Freeza nonchalantly flexes and it breaks off.

But the idea that Vegeta was equal to or stronger than 530,000 is ridiculous. Utterly.

vl · Post by vl » Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:04 pm

desirecampbell wrote:
vl wrote:Team work often doesn't work really well against a stronger opponent unless their PL is stronger when added together.
Uh, teamwork doesn't often work at all. Remember when they tried to fight Nappa?

Well, Goku and Piccolo vs. Raditz worked. It didn't work perfectly, actually it was a pretty lousy victory in the end, but it worked. Okay, maybe dragonball really hasn't been a teamwork thingy.

Now that I think of it, I always found it it weird how a half dead Piccolo still got more power than Krillin, Muten-Roshi, Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Kami together. After they all thought Goku died he was like, you all together don't have the power to beat me. Surely they could have done something.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:12 pm

superstar wrote: No, this is a theory, "Freeza was growling and struggling to land TWO PUNCHES at Vegeta because he was mad at Vegeta and showing his hate?" Freeza was trying to show his hatred by KILLING the damn Saya-jin by beating him to death but he could not do it.

Nope. That's what is known as "splitting hairs". Please go and study the mechanics of debating before you try to correct me on it's concepts.

What you've presented is a theory at this point in time. Nothing more, nothing less. Please provide tangible evidence to support your claim, instead of you just continually insisting and repeating your theory. That's not proof. What you keep insisting as evidence is a "view" or "opinion".

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:43 am

superstar wrote: No, this is a theory, "Freeza was growling and struggling to land TWO PUNCHES at Vegeta because he was mad at Vegeta and showing his hate?" Freeza was trying to show his hatred by KILLING the damn Saya-jin by beating him to death but he could not do it.

Seriously, is that you Wikistar?

Similar name, EXACT same debate style, and a join date that about coincides with the above person's permanent ban from wikipedia...

Coincidence?

And yea, I think everything's pretty much been said about the Freeza thing. I mean, he throws two punches, they are blocked, they push at each other, break off, Freeza is calm, Vegeta is tired. One can't assume Freeza used every ounce of his power when he figured Vegeta to be at best guess just above Cpt. Ginyu. In fact, his scouter was on. We didn't see a readout, but it was on, since it read numbers and burst. Which means that Freeza saw a supressed PL (to what degree we don't know) and used that to judge his strength. Which means he went at Vegeta expecting less than what he was really facing, and even coming up short of what was needed to land a decisive blow, Vegeta's the one who ran out of juice.

Also, Freeza's powerup was less impressive than...sa...Vegeta's against Goku. We can chalk it up to dramatic effect, but all the same I don't think that was the full brunt of 530k. I mean the guy effortlessly wiped VBegeta-sei off of the galactic charts. I think his full power would result in more than some tremors and culminate in a tiny crater.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:17 am

Onikage725 wrote:Seriously, is that you Wikistar?

Similar name, EXACT same debate style, and a join date that about coincides with the above person's permanent ban from wikipedia...

Coincidence?

I don't even want to know what FUD you've got to put on the DBZ Wikipedia pages to get banned.

Onikage725 wrote:I don't think that was the full brunt of 530k. I mean the guy effortlessly wiped Vegeta-sei off of the galactic charts. I think his full power would result in more than some tremors and culminate in a tiny crater.

My thoughts exactly. There's no reason to think Freeza was using anywhere near his full power, and Vegeta still couldn't handle it.

Furthermore, Freeza seems mildly amused that Vegeta's stronger than he imagined, but doesn't seem worried at all. We could say this is because he knew he had three more forms to use to overpower him, but I think the better explanation is that Freeza knew he was far stronger than Vegeta, even in his first form, not just strong enough to beat him, but so superior that he'd be able to do it without breaking a sweat (as is his custom). As proof I submit the fact that he didn't transform right after that first grapple with Vegeta (it seems more like Freeza's character to transform at the first sign of trouble), and how shocked Freeza was when Vegeta mentioned his second form.

Side question: where does the 530,000 level come from? Is it stated anywhere? If so, can we assume that Freeza would've used a scouter to measure such a power reading? And if that is so, than we can forget about the idea that scouters explode at certain levels. Freeza's 530,000 level would've been measured before he arrived on Namek (probably quite a long time before then). So the 'new and improved' scouters brought by the Ginyu Force must be better than whatever was available to rad Freeza's power level. So these new scouters should be able to read levels higher than any other scouter previously, thus, they should be able to read at least 500k, which means they shouldn't explode at 180k (like Ginyu's scouter did).
I think that's pretty sound, unless I've misquoted something.

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:39 am

Sounds all good to me.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:23 am

desirecampbell wrote:
I don't even want to know what FUD you've got to put on the DBZ Wikipedia pages to get banned.

Aw, they aren't all that bad (at the moment). There's a fairly dedicated group that watches a good chunk of them and keeps the fancruft out. Just the facts.

desirecampbell wrote:
Side question: where does the 530,000 level come from?

Freeza tells Nail, to illustrate that even a level as impressive as 45k is absolutely nothing compared to him. He then proves he has more power than that in just one arm, I believe.

goodguy777 · Post by **goodguy777** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:57 am

The near death power-up or what they called zenkai doesn't have a fixed increase in power. It doesn't matter whether it is 0.1 times or 30 times increase in power. It wasn't big deal.