Gohan Out of Character at Cell Games? Let's end this debate.

[ABED]

I'm not fully agreeing with you. I do think the scene is okay, but just needed a tweaks.

I can buy that Gohan is worried that he can't access his hidden power.

[thatdbzguy]

I'm not fully agreeing with you. I do think the scene is okay, but just needed a tweaks.

I can buy that Gohan is worried that he can't access his hidden power.

Wasn't talking about you, aby.

[mAcChaos]

Why do people constantly say he was just standing on the sidelines, not trying to help (like he did when he rage boosted in the past)?

OK, how did he help in the past? By rage boosting.

He couldn't rage boost this time. So he tried to rage boost. What's the problem here? If he wasn't trying to do ANYTHING, then it would be OOC. If he had gotten the rageboost right away, he would have jumped in there and taken all the Cell Jr's out. But he just couldn't get it. That wasn't up to him though.

[thatdbzguy]

Why do people constantly say he was just standing on the sidelines, not trying to help (like he did when he rage boosted in the past)?

OK, how did he help in the past? By rage boosting.

He couldn't rage boost this time. So he tried to rage boost. What's the problem here? If he wasn't trying to do ANYTHING, then it would be OOC. If he had gotten the rageboost right away, he would have jumped in there and taken all the Cell Jr's out. But he just couldn't get it. That wasn't up to him though.

Why couldn't he, though? He had no problem accessing it before.

[mAcChaos]

Because Toriyama decided he couldn't.

If you want a more in-universe answer, it was probably because he got more control over himself with his training and getting older. The whole ROSAT training was to temper their rage in SSJ1 after all. It's like asking why a trained soldier has a harder time snapping and panicing in a firefight compared to a regular civilian. After you go through the training and discipline your mental state toughens up so even if you want to panic it's harder to.

[ABED]

Because Toriyama decided he couldn't.

If you want a more in-universe answer, it was probably because he got more control over himself with his training and getting older. The whole ROSAT training was to temper their rage in SSJ1 after all. It's like asking why a trained soldier has a harder time snapping and panicing in a firefight compared to a regular civilian. After you go through the training and discipline your mental state toughens up so even if you want to panic it's harder to.

The RST training wasn't specifically to temper their rage. It was to get Gohan to turn Super Saiyan, and to get used to it as their natural state so as to conserve energy.

[mAcChaos]

Natural state means tempering their rage.

[Flame Dragon]

Because Toriyama decided he couldn't.

If you want a more in-universe answer, it was probably because he got more control over himself with his training and getting older. The whole ROSAT training was to temper their rage in SSJ1 after all. It's like asking why a trained soldier has a harder time snapping and panicing in a firefight compared to a regular civilian. After you go through the training and discipline your mental state toughens up so even if you want to panic it's harder to.

The RST training wasn't specifically to temper their rage. It was to get Gohan to turn Super Saiyan, and to get used to it as their natural state so as to conserve energy.

Except you needed to mantain a calm mind to mantain FPSSJ. So they HAD TO LEARN how to temper their rage to even learn how to remain Super Saiyans all the time.
The whole point of the FPSSJ was to restrain the savage rage the form brings to access and mantain it easier.

I feel like we're going in circles now.

[ABED]

Natural state means tempering their rage.

Does Goku seem overly angry even when he's a Super Saiyan? The training was all about energy consumption, not keeping emotions in check.

We aren't going in circles.

Where did you get the idea that it had anything to do with emotions? That's never once brought up.

[mAcChaos]

He was definitely angry. You can see the difference in how Toriyama draws their eyes. They went from serious SSJ eyes to how they look when they are in their base form.

[ABED]

He was definitely angry. You can see the difference in how Toriyama draws their eyes. They went from serious SSJ eyes to how they look when they are in their base form.

He's not angry because he's a Super Saiyan, and there's a difference between anger and determination. Given that they can turn it off and on like a faucet, I doubt he gets angry every time.

[DBZAOTA482]

He was definitely angry. You can see the difference in how Toriyama draws their eyes. They went from serious SSJ eyes to how they look when they are in their base form.

Actually, they were still drawn the same way. You also forgot to mention the increased aggression as a Super Saiyan (Vegeta mentioned it once).

[thatdbzguy]

So, considering how there's no good reason as to why Gohan couldn't access his power, I assume that you've all realized that he was OOC?

[mAcChaos]

He was definitely angry. You can see the difference in how Toriyama draws their eyes. They went from serious SSJ eyes to how they look when they are in their base form.

Actually, they were still drawn the same way. You also forgot to mention the increased aggression as a Super Saiyan (Vegeta mentioned it once).

No they weren't. Do you have an example?

But good point on Vegeta.

[Herms]

No, but I do worry about the amount of intelligence someone who honestly believes that Gohan wasn't OOC has.

Cut it out. That's no way to talk to people.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Natural state means tempering their rage.

Does Goku seem overly angry even when he's a Super Saiyan? The training was all about energy consumption, not keeping emotions in check.

We aren't going in circles.

Where did you get the idea that it had anything to do with emotions? That's never once brought up.

Given that at least half the Super Saiyain transformations up to that point had some negative emotional impact, both in Goku and Vegeta's first runs with it, it's certainly strongly implied. More broadly, the observations made by multiple characters about how almost eerily serene Goku is the entire week- that's certainly a part of it.

OK, how did he help in the past? By rage boosting.

He couldn't rage boost this time. So he tried to rage boost. What's the problem here? If he wasn't trying to do ANYTHING, then it would be OOC. If he had gotten the rageboost right away, he would have jumped in there and taken all the Cell Jr's out. But he just couldn't get it. That wasn't up to him though.

This is a good thing to point out; Gohan does not deliberately get mad, it just happens quickly and violently. Gohan says this outright in the Buu arc, presuming we don't write that off as Gohan simply inheriting Toriyama's screw up here.

[penguintruth]

Exactly. Goku just assumed that Gohan would be able to summon that all that inner power at once, at will, whenever, but Gohan was too overwhelmed in the moment. He also mentioned not liking to lose control, but 16 counseled him to not worry about it. Of course, this then led to Gohan to be a little too overwhelmed by his own power in SSJ2, which gave Cell the opportunity to active his self-destruct.

There's nothing out of character about any of this. It would be out of character if it was no problem for him.

[Ringworm128]

Gohan always took a little bit to explode, it took Piccolo dying before he finally snapped against Nappa even though Tien, Chouzu and Yamcha had already died, he didn't get an instant rage boost the moment Freeza started interrogating the Namekians. He never even got a rage boost when fighting Reacoom. Gohan was under immense pressure, just the shock of seeing all his friends being beaten at once would be enough to make him freeze for a bit.

[DBZAOTA482]

He was definitely angry. You can see the difference in how Toriyama draws their eyes. They went from serious SSJ eyes to how they look when they are in their base form.

Actually, they were still drawn the same way. You also forgot to mention the increased aggression as a Super Saiyan (Vegeta mentioned it once).

No they weren't. Do you have an example?

But good point on Vegeta.

[ABED]

Those pics of Goku as Super Saiyan prove nothing. You can find plenty of pics with him with black hair and the same looks.

Given that at least half the Super Saiyain transformations up to that point had some negative emotional impact, both in Goku and Vegeta's first runs with it, it's certainly strongly implied. More broadly, the observations made by multiple characters about how almost eerily serene Goku is the entire week- that's certainly a part of it.

Of course it's gonna do something to them the first time given that rage is a prerequisite. And Goku was calm because he knew Gohan was his secret weapon.

Exactly. Goku just assumed that Gohan would be able to summon that all that inner power at once, at will, whenever, but Gohan was too overwhelmed in the moment. He also mentioned not liking to lose control, but 16 counseled him to not worry about it. Of course, this then led to Gohan to be a little too overwhelmed by his own power in SSJ2, which gave Cell the opportunity to active his self-destruct.

There's nothing out of character about any of this. It would be out of character if it was no problem for him.

That's not the issue, the issue is Gohan's reticence to fight at the start of the battle. He's constantly eager to help out but the second he's called on, "Fighting is pointless."