Requirement to turn SSJ?

Panda · Post by **Panda** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:20 pm

Maybe Goku Jr. has two partially Saiya-jin parents? Never mind...

D.G. · Post by **D.G.** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:28 pm

Going by what you said, veshira, (more complicated than I could have known), then maybe his Saiya-Jin genes were dominant, and human were recessive. Or perhaps he just recieved that one single SSJ gene from his Saiya-Jin side.

Eh, I don't know. Bloody GT, creates so many problems.

Panda · Post by **Panda** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:36 pm

Well, if Goten and Trunks were supposedly able to trun SSJ easier because their parents had achieved that level of power before their conception then maybe it's the same for Goku Jr.

Sometime during Pan's life she may have become an SSJ, later giving birth to a child. Because of Pan's SSJ ability the child eventually reached SSJ... then had a kid.

Granted, I know little to nothing about genetics. But considering the evidence this is pretty practical. Because the generations kept accessing this gene it may have remained dominant throughout the generations. Similarly, as the gene kept being passed down (assuming Pan and her child were able to reach SSJ status) it may have put the requirement for SSJ status at a lower powerlevel than what it was for the first transfromers (Goku)

Son_GokouSSJ4 · Post by **Son_GokouSSJ4** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:54 pm

Goku Jr. became a SSJ for the first time the same way Goku did...anger!
He got pissed off when the Mt.Paozu monster was about to kill his friend bear.
Makes me wonder why Pan couldn't become a SSJ and he did...(plothole=GT?).

Panda · Post by **Panda** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:26 pm

Just because someone gets pissed in the show doesn't nessacarily mean they'll become an SSJ. And really... the whole Pan and GT plothole crap doesn't apply to this. Why would Pan beiong angry but not becoming a an SSJ effect Goku Jr. becoming an SSJ during his lifetime?

Post by **desirecampbell** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:55 pm

Panda wrote:Just because someone gets pissed in the show doesn't nessacarily mean they'll become an SSJ. And really... the whole Pan and GT plothole crap doesn't apply to this. Why would Pan beiong angry but not becoming a an SSJ effect Goku Jr. becoming an SSJ during his lifetime?

Because we see Pan getting really angry, moreso than we see Gotenks or Goku Jr. We are told that Pan can't become a Super Siayan because of her diluted blood (I believe... I dunno... "GT = snooze").

If Goku Jr can become a Super Siayan, Pan should be able to too.

Son_GokouSSJ4 · Post by **Son_GokouSSJ4** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:10 pm

desirecampbell wrote:
Panda wrote:Just because someone gets pissed in the show doesn't nessacarily mean they'll become an SSJ. And really... the whole Pan and GT plothole crap doesn't apply to this. Why would Pan beiong angry but not becoming a an SSJ effect Goku Jr. becoming an SSJ during his lifetime?
Because we see Pan getting really angry, moreso than we see Gotenks or Goku Jr. We are told that Pan can't become a Super Siayan because of her diluted blood (I believe... I dunno... "GT = snooze").

If Goku Jr can become a Super Siayan, Pan should be able to too.

I was just saying that Goku Jr. achieved his first SSJ transformation when he got really angry at someone (in this case, the Mt.Paozu monster).
Now the reason why he was able to and Pan wasn't...well...plot hole all over if you ask me.
Never really bought that 'diluted blood' crap, even if it was in the GT perfect file.
I mean...Pan's blood was diluted, and Goku Jr.'s wasn't? He was her descendent...how come that get some reasonable explanation?!

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:44 pm

Only males can go SSJ. *nod*

Son_GokouSSJ4 · Post by **Son_GokouSSJ4** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:02 pm

That doesn't make sense. Why shouldn't females be able to reach the SSJ level?
Let me guess...they never found an actual character design that fit!

Panda · Post by **Panda** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:14 pm

I still bet Pan did go SSJ... I mean, obviously the "diluted blood" thing doesn't apply and since it was a theory (or fact from that book...) it means that she could have if their wasn't a reason given for why she couldn't.

As far as her being a girl and that effecting it goes... it could be. It could be that girls have a slightly higher power-level to obtain before reaching SSJ. Or it could be to physically demanding on the female body.

veshira · Post by **veshira** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:43 pm

desirecampbell wrote:
Panda wrote:Just because someone gets pissed in the show doesn't nessacarily mean they'll become an SSJ. And really... the whole Pan and GT plothole crap doesn't apply to this. Why would Pan beiong angry but not becoming a an SSJ effect Goku Jr. becoming an SSJ during his lifetime?
Because we see Pan getting really angry, moreso than we see Gotenks or Goku Jr. We are told that Pan can't become a Super Siayan because of her diluted blood (I believe... I dunno... "GT = snooze").

If Goku Jr can become a Super Siayan, Pan should be able to too.

My theory. [Wayne's World-like transition] When Gohan conceived Pan, he passed on his Saikyou no Gohan/Saiyajin/Mystic Saiyan-ness to Pan. That is why Pan is super strong, but never a Super Saiyajin. Plus, it explains why Gohan goes Super Saiyajin in GT. W00t!

Now Bra, she just doesn't fight, although she apparently has power, since she fights in the Baby Saga. Plus, she doesn't get hurt when Vegeta throw her into the car from a distance.

Oh, and she doesn't get mad often. I'm assuming, since when don't really see her all that much.

BrollysKin · Post by **BrollysKin** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:06 pm

desirecampbell wrote:
D.G. wrote:I have to agree about Goten and Trunks' initial transformations. The only thing different about them from Gohan is their fathers' ability to transform at conception, so it's the only answer.
No, Goku was also much stronger. We can assume that becoming a Super Saiyan (while still requiring an emotional outburst) gets easier as you get stronger.

Well, I think it gets easier to do after you have done it more than once. Goku was able to turn into a super saiyan immediatley while fighting Trunks. He wasn't even that much stronger than he was on Namek.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:43 pm

BrollysKin wrote:
desirecampbell wrote:
D.G. wrote:I have to agree about Goten and Trunks' initial transformations. The only thing different about them from Gohan is their fathers' ability to transform at conception, so it's the only answer.
No, Goku was also much stronger. We can assume that becoming a Super Saiyan (while still requiring an emotional outburst) gets easier as you get stronger.
Well, I think it gets easier to do after you have done it more than once. Goku was able to turn into a super saiyan immediatley while fighting Trunks. He wasn't even that much stronger than he was on Namek.

Well...I'm not so sure about that. He did train for over a year and a half on Yardrat in order to control the Super Saiyan form and learn Teleportation. I interpreted such to be a significant boost in power, but that's just my take on it

BrollysKin · Post by **BrollysKin** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:46 pm

Yeah, i was always under the thought that you could trigger it any time you wanted after you passed the first barrier.

RIP Steve Irwin

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:12 am

veshira wrote:
D.G. wrote:I always had an idea, though, that by some trick of genetics he had more Saiya-Jin blood than a 5th generation ought to. He looked exactly like Goku, so he recieved a lot of genes from the Saiya-Jin side. I think it's unlikely that he could transform if he had only 1/16 Saiya-Jin blood. Same with Vegeta Jr.
Using real world knowledge and logic, when a baby is born, the baby will always have an even amount of data ("genes"/"DNA") from both sides. Whether or not the traits of these genes take on physical form on the baby has to do with if the genes are dominant or recessive, what the trait is, if the gene is shared by both parents, how much data both parents have on it based on the number of generations it's gone through and how it's changed and... it's really complicated. And it can change during puberty, spurs and other significant times of change in an adult's life. (Pregnancy, middle age, old age, ect.)

So basically, what traits take form and affect how an individual lives are determined by a roll of a die. (Well, 23 dice? Let's assume Saiyajin have 23, since I find it very unlikely that two species with different numbers of chromosomes could be even remotely compatible.) However, an offspring will always have half his DNA coming from his mother, and the other half coming from his father. Always.

Yes, but it's still ENTIRELY possible to use DB logic and bypass that whole thing. For example, I've got a Fanfic in the works that'll be using a little theory I came up with that, while not helping the Pan not going SSJ situation any, fixes completely the Goku Jr. issues. That is this: Saiya-jin genes are dominant, extremely dominant. So much so that they are the only genes that are present in the reproductive systems of hybrids. Thus, a hybrid will not pass on any Human DNA. So a hybrid and a Human will create a half Saiya-jin every time, and two hybrids would make a full blooded Saiya-jin.

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:22 pm

I very much dislike the internet perpetuated MYTH that Trunks and Goten are able to become Super Saiyans at an early age because thier fathers somehow passed a Super saiyan ability to them at conception.

First off, this notion most likely first came about by some fan trying to explain something that they couldn't explain, so they made up something that sounded plausible to thier uneducated mind. Granted, it is a fictional universe, but that notion is just absurd, as there is no evidence to support it anywhere. It is a poorly concocted explanation and a myth.

Look at the facts of how other saiyans became super saiyans. Look how Goku gained power by fighting opponents with greater strength than his own. Try hard to remember Goku mentioning at the Cell games that Gohan had managed to keep up with everyone over the years in terms of power, even though he was a mere boy. Goku says he was nowhere near as strong at that age. (Because he had no one that strong to fight against back then.)

Goten and Trunks sparred with people that were already capable of Super Saiyan and had unbelievable base powers. Thier power increaed because of this. We don't know what the minimum threshold of power is for Super Saiyan transformation. People assume it is Goku's power on Namek, because that is the first such transformation we witness.

Here are the facts on that. Goku was enraged enough to make the transformation both times Krillin was killed. The first time, his power simply was not up high enough to trigger it. The second time, it was, so it happened. It is possible a battle power of only 100,000 is needed. This is well beyond the power of any saiyan before Goku or Vegeta came around and surpassed such power on Namek.

We don't know what the threshold is. What is special about Trunks and Goten is that thier base battle powers went way up early on because of youth, fighting people with greater powers, and fighting each other often.

Look how much Goku and Gohan advanced from fighting each other in the Hyperbolic Time chamber as opposed to Trunks and Vegeta, who trained seperately while in there.

Battle experience is what gained that power. Children go nuts and throw temper tantrums a lot. Adults don't go into such tirades easily, and try to stay calm in tough situations. That's probably what kept Goku from doing it sooner.

They became Super Saiyans as children because they were powerful enough to do so. They were powerful enough to do so because they were in an environment that facilitated it. Bottom line, that's the reason.

I will go out on a limb here and risk an administrative reprimand in saying that if you believe the "passed gene notion" you're just acting ridiculous and ignoring the facts.

Forgive the overbearing nature of my response, but it seems like no matter how many times I explain this, it goes ignored. I would like to think the higher level, thinking, reasoning Dragonball fans of this community would be accepting of such an explanation that derives its conclusion from evidence throughout the series as a whole over a fan myth with no base.

Panda · Post by **Panda** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:12 pm

veshira wrote:
My theory. [Wayne's World-like transition] When Gohan conceived Pan, he passed on his Saikyou no Gohan/Saiyajin/Mystic Saiyan-ness to Pan. That is why Pan is super strong, but never a Super Saiyajin. Plus, it explains why Gohan goes Super Saiyajin in GT. W00t!

Now Bra, she just doesn't fight, although she apparently has power, since she fights in the Baby Saga. Plus, she doesn't get hurt when Vegeta throw her into the car from a distance. Oh, and she doesn't get mad often. I'm assuming, since when don't really see her all that much.

Ah, I had completely forgotten about his mystic power-dealio! This could work

As for Akira's theory...

Have you ever heard that when women spend time around each other their menstraul cycles align after awhile? Maybe it's the same deal for power-levels but in a more physical (than chemical) level.

When trunks became SSJ for the first time on scene (or in panels... whatever) Vegeta had never seen his son's transformation before. Same with Goten and Gohan.

The difference is here is that Trunks was exposed to SSJ beforehand. He did train with Vegeta while he was in SSJ form so he eventually picked it up (according to your theory?). With Goten however it's implied (in the manga, in the anime it's sorta shown?) that he reached the level on his own without any prior knowledge of SSJ.

So how could Goten become an SSJ so easily AND at such a young age if he has never seen or heard of it before? That's where my theories play in. it's either by genetic dispostition or by physical alignment.

GI_Judd2287 · Post by **GI_Judd2287** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:27 pm

The truth is Akira Toriyama probably just needed a way for them (Goten and Trunks) to keep up with everyone else. They also appear to be much stronger than Piccolo and Vegeta were in the Androids saga, as together they were able to put up a good fight against Android #18.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:46 pm

GI_Judd2287 wrote:The truth is Akira Toriyama probably just needed a way for them (Goten and Trunks) to keep up with everyone else. They also appear to be much stronger than Piccolo and Vegeta were in the Androids saga, as together they were able to put up a good fight against Android #18.

Yup. The good 'ol "Mr. Toriyama wanted it that way" solution. Why argue?

And I don't know a single freakin' thing about genetics, but Akira's argument makes sense. But then so does Panda's.

I would guess that there would have to be something having to do with Goku and Vegeta's power that influenced maybe not the kids' power, but more likely their potential or natural prowess. Gohan was the same kind of deal, with far more power and potential for his age, compared to full-blooded Saiyans and everyone else around him. But Goten and Trunks were even moreso. Also, I don't really know if Goten and Trunks ever fought that much, enough to gain power prerequisite just from training, even with others.

This is me, babbling, thank you.

My brain hurts. First day of college plus DbZ debates can do that to you, I guess.

veshira · Post by **veshira** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:19 pm

Well, the whole situation is strange. I mean, Trunks and Goten both knowing they're Super Saiyajin, but Goten doesn't even know what it is, when Trunks does, so apparently he knows from his dad... But why wouldn't he have transformed in front of Vegeta previously? Plus, wouldn't he have told Goten? And how could Gohan not know that Goten knew how to fight?! Why don't these people pay attention?! You'd think someone would sense a Super Saiya ki. I mean, it's not a usual thing on Earth. With Gohan not fighting anymore, Goku, and Vegeta the only one training, you'd think they'd notice. Ugh... They're all just retarded, that's it!