Piccolo is far stronger than East Kaioshin

[RandomGuy96]

That post had nothing to do with you or your OP (which, it looks like, has already been debunked in a detailed fashion), it was specifically a response to another poster talking about a Get Out of Jail Free Card for the Daizenshuu.

Speaking of which, Kaioshin never used magic to disable SS2 Gohan, he used telekinesis. He even wondered whether or not SS2 Gohan was too strong for that paralysis technique to work, which wouldn't be the case with magic, which works regardless of how strong an opponent is. As Chiaotzu showed us in his "fight" with Nappa, if the enemy is many times stronger than you, your paralysis technique won't work. So that pretty much automatically makes Kaioshin not many times weaker than SS2 Gohan. But hey, if your whole argument for Piccolo being stronger than Kaioshin is shaky logic about Kaioshin being weaker than the base saiyans, shouldn't you also mention the implications that Piccolo himself is far weaker than the base saiyans? Because unlike with Kaioshin, there actually is evidence for that.

Where???
This was written in the middle of my first post, it was a way to demonstrate the logical argument. I never concludes that Kaioshin is weaker than basic Saiyans, the point of the topic is to prove that Piccolo is more powerful than Kaioshin, this topic has nothing to do with base Saiyans.

Except one your arguments for that was "Kaioshin is weaker than Pui Pui, who is weaker than the base saiyans, therefore Kaioshin < base saiyans < Piccolo. You also said that Kaioshin telling Goku he lacks confidence in being able to beat him was evidence of that same chain... because Goku happened to be in base form when Kaioshin said this, which I don't get at all.

None of the evidence for base saiyans > Kaioshin holds up at all. Or even Piccolo > Kaioshin, for that matter. Herms did a pretty good job of pointing out the lapses in logic there. Piccolo, on the other hand, has a lot of evidence for him being weaker than the base saiyans, such as Vegeta outright stating he would win the tournament in base with Piccolo standing right there, and Dabra stating the base saiyans to have marvelous energy while grouping Piccolo and Krillin together as "trash". I don't think he is, but if that's the logic you're using...

[White Oni]

The big problem with this whole debate is that people treat “Piccolo resigns because he thinks Kaioshin is way stronger than him” and “Piccolo resigns because he thinks Kaioshin is a high-ranking god” as if they’re mutually incompatible, but there’s no reason to think that. In fact, the storyline really only makes sense if you treat those things as going hand in hand. I mean, let’s play along and assume that when Piccolo says “our dimensions are too different”, he’s just saying that Kaioshin is a high-ranking god:

*Piccolo resigns the match*
Goku: "That bad, Piccolo?"
Piccolo: "Yeah…He’s a high-ranking god."
Kuririn: "You’ve got to be kidding! I’m gonna have to fight him next!"

Even like this, it’s clear that “high-ranking god” is synonymous with “super-duper strong”. Otherwise, Piccolo’s response to Goku is a complete non-sequitur, since Goku obviously isn’t asking about how high Piccolo’s match opponent sits on the cosmic totem pole. He wants to know if the guy’s really too strong for Piccolo to even try fighting. And Kuririn’s response to Piccolo’s line wouldn’t make sense either. Kuririn’s not fused with any former Gods of Earth, why should he be terrified at the prospect of fighting a high-ranking god, unless he thinks it means he’s going to get his ass kicked?

Of course, like I’ve said often enough, Piccolo’s “our dimensions are too different” is just a bog-standard way of saying “boy that guy’s way stronger than me” and gets used that way many times throughout the series. You could try and twist it to be talking about rank rather than strength, the same way you could with phrases like “he’s head and shoulders above me” or “he’s in a different league”, but it’s kind of a stretch and ultimately doesn’t even change anything, as I’ve tried to demonstrate above.

Yeah I really don't see how this is arguable at all...

Logic concludes that piccolo HAD to have been forfeiting because he was out ranked (royally/whatever)

Unless you're willing to argue that EK is stronger than Gohan... Which, I know nobody will.

Here's why:

Piccolo enters the tournament ready to fight the likes of ssj2 Gohan...

If he was ready to fight Gohan, why on earth would he forfeit in fear of someone far FAR weaker than Gohan?

So we can be certain that piccolo didn't leave the match BECAUSE EK is stronger than him. It had nothing to do with that, as shown by his entering the tournament with Goku and friends in the first place.

No, it was entirely because of EK's status.

It may have had something to do with EK having "mysterious Ki" or something, but that's not concerning to power scaling.

HOWEVER, it is possible that EK was still, in fact, stronger than piccolo.

Here's why:

Piccolo was willing to fight Gohan and Goku, but that doesn't mean he was on par with them.
Thus, we can't be certain that EK wasn't stronger, just that Piccolo wouldn't have forfeited JUST because he was.

So this leaves us in a blurred area, hence the years upon years of speculation.

HOWEVER, I think we can feel more and more comfortable assuming Piccolo is stronger than EK when we pay attention to events that transpire after the forfeit.

Vegeta gets serious and lets out a quick burst of power that obliterates Pocus... What's the EK's response?
[removed]

Vegeta strikes the EK with awe and amazement with power exerted in BASE form...

We can be certain that Piccolo is FAR above the saiyan's base forms... So....

At any rate, I want to clarify that I agree, that it's terribly moronic to suggest that JUST because the EK is WORRIED about Babbidi's men, that he can't be leagues above them in PL. But that's not what I'm using to argue here. I'm using something concrete, his reactions to the saiyans, people who's Power we can actually somewhat measure.

[DBZAOTA482]

Kaioshin is an idiot. You can't just go along with anything he says or does.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Piccolo enters the tournament ready to fight the likes of ssj2 Gohan...

You really expect that Gohan would go all out on Piccolo? He would most likely go Super Saiyan and lower his power to have a fun sparring match. But that is until they made the "no Super Saiyan" rule, which would mean that Piccolo would lower his power to have a fun sparring match. They are not entering to see who is the strongest (except for Goku & Vegeta), they are entering to have fun, and get the money (some of them at least).

Vegeta strikes the EK with awe and amazement with power exerted in BASE form...

Kaioshin is amazed because he expected Pui Pui to be a very strong guy, since Babidi only gathers strong guys, and he was afraid that Vegeta, who was fighting alone, would underestimate him and get damaged, which would transfer energy to Boo, which is something that Kaioshin wanted to avoid at any cost. It turns out that Vegeta could defeat this supposed powerful guy without any effort. That's why he was so amazed.

[White Oni]

Piccolo enters the tournament ready to fight the likes of ssj2 Gohan...

You really expect that Gohan would go all out on Piccolo? He would most likely go Super Saiyan and lower his power to have a fun sparring match. But that is until they made the "no Super Saiyan" rule, which would mean that Piccolo would lower his power to have a fun sparring match. They are not entering to see who is the strongest (except for Goku & Vegeta), they are entering to have fun, and get the money (some of them at least).

Vegeta strikes the EK with awe and amazement with power exerted in BASE form...

Kaioshin is amazed because he expected Pui Pui to be a very strong guy, since Babidi only gathers strong guys, and he was afraid that Vegeta, who was fighting alone, would underestimate him and get damaged, which would transfer energy to Boo, which is something that Kaioshin wanted to avoid at any cost. It turns out that Vegeta could defeat this supposed powerful guy without any effort. That's why he was so amazed.

1) Of course not, but I expect vegeta to and I know they're not just going to let him win. I seriously doubt Piccolo would expect vegeta to play nice with him.

2) Piccolo was unaware of the "no super Saiyan" rule, or any of the other fighters intentions when he joins.

3) EK can read PL, and the instant he saw Vegeta EASILY handle Pocus, leading to Pocus requesting a 10x change in gravity. He should have been more than certain that Pocus's fighting power was NOT something to be impressed by. So all that's left for rational interpretation is that the EK was expecting Pocus to have an advantage gained by some mysterious Magic ability. That's the only rational reason for EK to have fear for Pocus.

But all that aside, EK wasn't shocked or commenting about the fact that Pocus was defeated. He was Shocked and Commenting on Vegeta's power. He literally says "Such Power... It can't be."

[DBZGTKOSDH]

1) Of course not, but I expect vegeta to and I know they're not just going to let him win. I seriously doubt Piccolo would expect vegeta to play nice with him.

Vegeta wants a nice fight, not to humiliate Piccolo. And if Vegeta for some reason would go all out, then Piccolo would give up like he did with Kaioshin.

2) Piccolo was unaware of the "no super Saiyan" rule, or any of the other fighters intentions when he joins.

Which is why I said "But that is until they made the "no Super Saiyan" rule, which would mean that Piccolo would lower his power to have a fun sparring match.".

3) EK can read PL, and the instant he saw Vegeta EASILY handle Pocus, leading to Pocus requesting a 10x change in gravity. He should have been more than certain that Pocus's fighting power was NOT something to be impressed by. So all that's left for rational interpretation is that the EK was expecting Pocus to have an advantage gained by some mysterious Magic ability. That's the only rational reason for EK to have fear for Pocus.

Who says that Pui Pui wasn't suppressing his power? Kaioshin couldn't know that.

But all that aside, EK wasn't shocked or commenting about the fact that Pocus was defeated. He was Shocked and Commenting on Vegeta's power. He literally says "Such Power... It can't be."

Like I said, he didn't expect Vegeta to defeat Pui Pui without even trying in base. Meaning that he didn't expect Vegeta to be that powerful.

[mAcChaos]

While we're on the subject, I might as well bring up the Get Out of Jail Free Card I've seen some Japanese fansites use for Daizenshuu 7's "Kaioshin>Piccolo" bit. See, Daizenshuu 7's bio for East Kaioshin says that he's "far stronger than Super Namekian Piccolo". So you could say that Kaioshin's way stronger than Piccolo was immediately after re-merging with God back in the Cell arc, but still weaker than Piccolo is during the Boo arc, and still not technically be contradicting the entry. It's a case of purposefully missing the point, and it's probably easier just to say that Daizenshuu 7's wrong about Kaioshin (if you're so inclined), but I always found it amusing.

Why would Super Namekian Piccolo only refer to Piccolo as he was in the Cell Saga?

Regarding what Herms said about Krillin's response.

*Piccolo resigns the match*
Goku: "That bad, Piccolo?"
Piccolo: "Yeah…He’s a high-ranking god."
Kuririn: "You’ve got to be kidding! I’m gonna have to fight him next!"

Even like this, it’s clear that “high-ranking god” is synonymous with “super-duper strong”. Otherwise, Piccolo’s response to Goku is a complete non-sequitur, since Goku obviously isn’t asking about how high Piccolo’s match opponent sits on the cosmic totem pole. He wants to know if the guy’s really too strong for Piccolo to even try fighting. And Kuririn’s response to Piccolo’s line wouldn’t make sense either. Kuririn’s not fused with any former Gods of Earth, why should he be terrified at the prospect of fighting a high-ranking god, unless he thinks it means he’s going to get his ass kicked?

Notice what Piccolo says. He doesn't say HE'S STRONG, he says HE'S A HIGH RANKING GOD. That is what makes him special. Krillin just assumes that he's going to get his ass kicked because he just thinks "he's a god, he must be strong" like everybody does before they find out the truth.

[Kaboom]

I'm not sure, but I think we might want to give Herms' post a second and more close read.

[Cetra]

You know that it is possible that Piccolo is stronger than Kaioshin Ki and martial art wise but still weaker in comparison to his magic and psychic abilites, that pretty much even were active just by standing there and being a god? Gohan was also paralyzed by the Kaioshin and Gohan is stronger than Kaioshin in "our normal DBZ ways of thinking", so the power they normally use.

[Herms]

Regarding what Herms said about Krillin's response.

*Piccolo resigns the match*
Goku: "That bad, Piccolo?"
Piccolo: "Yeah…He’s a high-ranking god."
Kuririn: "You’ve got to be kidding! I’m gonna have to fight him next!"

Notice what Piccolo says. He doesn't say HE'S STRONG, he says HE'S A HIGH RANKING GOD. That is what makes him special. Krillin just assumes that he's going to get his ass kicked because he just thinks "he's a god, he must be strong" like everybody does before they find out the truth.

I thought I made this clear enough, but for the record, the actual dialogue is this:

Goku: “That bad, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions are too different…”
Kuririn: “You've got to be kidding! I'm gonna have to fight him next!”

Like I said, "our dimensions are too different" is a really standard way of saying somebody's way stronger than you. It's used that way a bunch throughout the series. But people like to say "oh, he's just talking about Kaioshin's divine rank or something".

My point is that even if you replace Piccolo's "our dimensions are too different" with "he's a high-ranking god," the dialogue still only makes sense if "high-ranking god" and "way stronger than me" are interchangeable.

[Hitiro]

I thought I made this clear enough, but for the record, the actual dialogue is this:

Goku: “That bad, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions are too different…”
Kuririn: “You've got to be kidding! I'm gonna have to fight him next!”

Like I said, "our dimensions are too different" is a really standard way of saying somebody's way stronger than you. It's used that way a bunch throughout the series. But people like to say "oh, he's just talking about Kaioshin's divine rank or something".

My point is that even if you replace Piccolo's "our dimensions are too different" with "he's a high-ranking god," the dialogue still only makes sense if "high-ranking god" and "way stronger than me" are interchangeable.

But can't we go by Piccolo assuming the Kaioshin is stronger than him? Nobody actually determines his strength during the tournament. They only hazard a guess that he could be a challenge. Piccolo could possibly be basing the "he's stronger than me" purely on title only. For instance, Goku met Kami. And Goku's natural assumption at the time was because Kami was "God," he would be and should be stronger than anyone and should be strong enough to defeat Piccolo. With the title comes a certain level of strength and belief about the individuals strength. The Kaioshin assumed that the Saiyan's wouldn't be able to stand a chance against Pui Pui, Yakon or Dabra based on their reputations too.

We could simply just assume Piccolo also mistook the Kaioshin for being stronger than he was due to reputation because Piccolo believed he was some high-ranking god.

[RandomGuy96]

I thought I made this clear enough, but for the record, the actual dialogue is this:

Goku: “That bad, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions are too different…”
Kuririn: “You've got to be kidding! I'm gonna have to fight him next!”

Like I said, "our dimensions are too different" is a really standard way of saying somebody's way stronger than you. It's used that way a bunch throughout the series. But people like to say "oh, he's just talking about Kaioshin's divine rank or something".

My point is that even if you replace Piccolo's "our dimensions are too different" with "he's a high-ranking god," the dialogue still only makes sense if "high-ranking god" and "way stronger than me" are interchangeable.

But can't we go by Piccolo assuming the Kaioshin is stronger than him? Nobody actually determines his strength during the tournament. They only hazard a guess that he could be a challenge. Piccolo could possibly be basing the "he's stronger than me" purely on title only. For instance, Goku met Kami. And Goku's natural assumption at the time was because Kami was "God," he would be and should be stronger than anyone and should be strong enough to defeat Piccolo. With the title comes a certain level of strength and belief about the individuals strength. The Kaioshin assumed that the Saiyan's wouldn't be able to stand a chance against Pui Pui, Yakon or Dabra based on their reputations too.

We could simply just assume Piccolo also mistook the Kaioshin for being stronger than he was due to reputation because Piccolo believed he was some high-ranking god.

The problem with that is that not only does official material outright say he sensed Kaioshin's power, but in the series itself, no one doubts Piccolo's assessment, and he never takes it back. No one ever assumes he was lying about being able to detect Kaioshin's power when no one else could, no one says he may have overestimating him, etc.

This whole "debate" seems like a pretty clear case of all of the facts supporting one character, but fan bias supporting another. Even though every source available, including the manga, outright states Kaioshin's superiority, many will still doubt it, trying to find any way they can to "prove" Piccolo is stronger, despite that not being supported anywhere. Rather than looking at all of the evidence and deducing who's stronger from that, they instead want Piccolo to be stronger, because he's "badass" and "cool" while Kaioshin is a wimp, and go ahead trying to justify that thought, and deny everything that says otherwise (which is, well, everything). It's vaguely reminiscent of similar strength "debates" like Goten/Trunks vs Piccolo (or, in some cases, even 18) and Goku vs Gohan/Gotenks.

[Hitiro]

The problem with that is that not only does official material outright say he sensed Kaioshin's power, but in the series itself, no one doubts Piccolo's assessment, and he never takes it back. No one ever assumes he was lying about being able to detect Kaioshin's power when no one else could, no one says he may have overestimating him, etc.

This whole "debate" seems like a pretty clear case of all of the facts supporting one character, but fan bias supporting another. Even though every source available, including the manga, outright states Kaioshin's superiority, many will still doubt it, trying to find any way they can to "prove" Piccolo is stronger, despite that not being supported anywhere. Rather than looking at all of the evidence and deducing who's stronger from that, they instead want Piccolo to be stronger, because he's "badass" and "cool" while Kaioshin is a wimp, and go ahead trying to justify that thought, and deny everything that says otherwise (which is, well, everything).

Does it say in the manga he sensed Kaioshin's power? I don't recall it ever being stated. I could be wrong. As for Piccolo's assessment, how is he supposed to take it back? He never witnesses the Kaioshin use his power, up until Boo is released the Kaioshin had no reason to show off his power. And Piccolo ends up being turned to stone before he gets to witness anything of the sort. By the time he is freed from being a statue the Kaioshin was already heavily wounded and weak.

I don't place Piccolo stronger than the Kaioshin because he is "badass" or "cool." It just seems that Kaioshin is way to easily impressed by feats the Z fighters have long done away with.

[RandomGuy96]

The problem with that is that not only does official material outright say he sensed Kaioshin's power, but in the series itself, no one doubts Piccolo's assessment, and he never takes it back. No one ever assumes he was lying about being able to detect Kaioshin's power when no one else could, no one says he may have overestimating him, etc.

This whole "debate" seems like a pretty clear case of all of the facts supporting one character, but fan bias supporting another. Even though every source available, including the manga, outright states Kaioshin's superiority, many will still doubt it, trying to find any way they can to "prove" Piccolo is stronger, despite that not being supported anywhere. Rather than looking at all of the evidence and deducing who's stronger from that, they instead want Piccolo to be stronger, because he's "badass" and "cool" while Kaioshin is a wimp, and go ahead trying to justify that thought, and deny everything that says otherwise (which is, well, everything).

Does it say in the manga he sensed Kaioshin's power? I don't recall it ever being stated. I could be wrong. As for Piccolo's assessment, how is he supposed to take it back? He never witnesses the Kaioshin use his power, up until Boo is released the Kaioshin had no reason to show off his power. And Piccolo ends up being turned to stone before he gets to witness anything of the sort. By the time he is freed from being a statue the Kaioshin was already heavily wounded and weak.

Daizenshuu 2 did, I don't recall the manga stating so. But he has no reason to lie in this case, and everyone treats his words as the truth, so yeah. Either way, it is yet another instance of Kaioshin's superiority being confirmed, and one that certain fans keep trying to ignore.

I'm not talking about him taking it back in-universe. I'm talking about Toriyama making him take it back out of universe. Toriyama doesn't have a character admit inferiority to another character if he's actually a weakling, and then just leave it with nothing to contradict it. He just doesn't. Furthermore, why wouldn't Goku say something? Or Vegeta? Why would Goku even believe Piccolo at all if, supposedly, it was not possible for any of them to sense Kaioshin?

[Hitiro]

Daizenshuu 2 did, I don't recall the manga stating so. But he has no reason to lie in this case, and everyone treats his words as the truth, so yeah. Either way, it is yet another instance of Kaioshin's superiority being confirmed, and one that certain fans keep trying to ignore.

I'm not talking about him taking it back in-universe. I'm talking about Toriyama making him take it back out of universe. Toriyama doesn't have a character admit inferiority to another character if he's actually a weakling, and then just leave it with nothing to contradict it. He just doesn't. Furthermore, why wouldn't Goku say something? Or Vegeta? Why would Goku even believe Piccolo at all if, supposedly, it was not possible for any of them to sense Kaioshin?

But Kaioshin openly admits that base Vegeta is "strong."

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P13.3
Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Kaioshin: “Th-that can’t be…Th-they’re this [strong]…”

Unless you put base Vegeta above Piccolo? Considering the BoG movie puts all base Saiyan's, apart from fusions, below 100% Freeza that would be weird.

And Kaioshin infers his inferiority to Yakon by trying to get Goku and the gang to fight with him to take Yakon down.

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P7.2-5
Context: after Yakon slashes Goku
Gohan: “Oh! He’s huge, but quick!”
Kaioshin: “Let’s fight together!”
Gohan: “Nah, I think father will be perfectly fine on his own.”
Kaioshin: “…”

A enemy that possibly base Goku could have handled. This could be an example of a character admitting his inferiority to another when that the other person is actually weak as I doubt Kaioshin would have had trouble against him if he was as strong as we think.

And they were never able to gauge the Kaioshin's strength as they never personally saw him fight.

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.2
Context: as Piccolo and Kaioshin's match begins
Vegeta: “We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...”

So how are Goku and Vegeta supposed to say otherwise?

The only time we have someone question Kaioshin's power is when Boo is released.

Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P4.6, P5.4-6
Goku: “It’s a ki…! A huge ki has appeared…! Majin Boo has finally come out…”
Vegeta: “Fuffuffuh…Majin Boo, huh?...Here I was wondering what kind of amazing guy he would be, and he’s got this kind of battle power number?...I thought so…Kakarot, you and I have now become too strong…By a wide margin! By his nature, Kaioshin is supposed to be someone tremendous, but have you ever once thought that he was incredible? Quite the opposite, it's Kaioshin who’s been bewildered…Majin Boo is fearsome from Kaioshin’s perspective, but from ours he’s not so much…”
Goku: “N-no…That’s not it…There’s something abnormal about this ki...”

And Vegeta also assumes Kaioshin is nothing much.

[RandomGuy96]

But Kaioshin openly admits that base Vegeta is "strong."
Unless you put base Vegeta above Piccolo? Considering the BoG movie puts all base Saiyan's, apart from fusions, below 100% Freeza that would be weird.

Yes, Vegeta is stronger than he thought. That doesn't exactly mean much, especially since he should know roughly how much of a boost he gets going from base to SS.

If you're bringing BOG into this, Kaioshin's comments on base Vegeta are pretty much confirmed to mean absolutely nothing.

And Kaioshin infers his inferiority to Yakon by trying to get Goku and the gang to fight with him to take Yakon down.

Kaioshin cannot sense Yakon's power, and he is simply being overly cautious as to prevent Majin Buu's revival, as he is scared shitless at the prospect of the Majin coming back. Unless, of course, you believe that Yakon and Pui Pui are much stronger than SS2 Gohan, who he had sensed at the Budokai, who is not only standing next to him, but who Kaioshin himself could render completely helpless.

A enemy that possibly base Goku could have handled. This could be an example of a character admitting his inferiority to another when that the other person is actually weak as I doubt Kaioshin would have had trouble against him if he was as strong as we think.

The difference? Kaioshin never admitted inferiority to Yakon. Piccolo, however, did admit inferiority to Kaioshin.

And they were never able to gauge the Kaioshin's strength as they never personally saw him fight. So how are Goku and Vegeta supposed to say otherwise?

They would have been able to sense his power when he fought fatso. Furthermore, why wouldn't any of them doubt Piccolo's statement if it was absolutely impossible for anyone to read his strength under those circumstances? Piccolo's words are taken as fact by both the characters in the story and the writers of the official guidebooks, which are really consistent with stating Kaioshin's superiority to Piccolo.

The only time we have someone question Kaioshin's power is when Boo is released.

Kaioshin is nothing compared to them, but still much stronger than Piccolo. I don't see how that means anything.

[Hitiro]

But Kaioshin openly admits that base Vegeta is "strong."
Unless you put base Vegeta above Piccolo? Considering the BoG movie puts all base Saiyan's, apart from fusions, below 100% Freeza that would be weird.

Yes, Vegeta is stronger than he thought. That doesn't exactly mean much, especially since he should know roughly how much of a boost he gets going from base to SS.

If you're bringing BOG into this, Kaioshin's comments on base Vegeta are pretty much confirmed to mean absolutely nothing.

Well Kaioshin didn't say he was stronger than he thought. He actually calls him strong. That's how I see it anyway. But it depends on the person I guess.

And Kaioshin infers his inferiority to Yakon by trying to get Goku and the gang to fight with him to take Yakon down.

Kaioshin cannot sense Yakon's power, and he is simply being overly cautious as to prevent Majin Buu's revival, as he is scared shitless at the prospect of the Majin coming back. Unless, of course, you believe that Yakon and Pui Pui are much stronger than SS2 Gohan, who he had sensed at the Budokai, who is not only standing next to him, but who Kaioshin himself could render completely helpless.

Goku, Gohan or Vegeta shouldn't be able to sense Yakon's power either yet they thought Goku could handle him fine. If Kaioshin was as strong as we were lead to believe he would have stepped in and thought himself.

A enemy that possibly base Goku could have handled. This could be an example of a character admitting his inferiority to another when that the other person is actually weak as I doubt Kaioshin would have had trouble against him if he was as strong as we think.

The difference? Kaioshin never admitted inferiority to Yakon. Piccolo, however, did admit inferiority to Kaioshin.

You say that but the fact that he thought they wouldn't stand a chance without all working together doesn't speak very highly about how strong he is. But okay, if you think that.

And they were never able to gauge the Kaioshin's strength as they never personally saw him fight. So how are Goku and Vegeta supposed to say otherwise?

They would have been able to sense his power when he fought fatso. Furthermore, why wouldn't any of them doubt Piccolo's statement if it was absolutely impossible for anyone to read his strength under those circumstances? Piccolo's words are taken as fact by both the characters in the story and the writers of the official guidebooks, which are really consistent with stating Kaioshin's superiority to Piccolo.

Kaioshin is nothing compared to them, but still much stronger than Piccolo. I don't see how that means anything.

Nobody really says he is anything amazing. Piccolo calls him that after assuming he was some sort of Kaio. Nobody gets a proper estimate on his battle power and Vegeta also says he isn't anything special. So I still see it as an overestimation of his ability on Piccolo's part. But you and I are entitled to our opinions.

[RandomGuy96]

Well Kaioshin didn't say he was stronger than he thought. He actually calls him strong. That's how I see it anyway. But it depends on the person I guess.

It seems more like he's surprised that they're THIS strong. As in, this specific level, which is off from his estimation.

Goku, Gohan or Vegeta shouldn't be able to sense Yakon's power either yet they thought Goku could handle him fine. If Kaioshin was as strong as we were lead to believe he would have stepped in and thought himself.

They were being (justifiably) arrogant. Simple as that. They can't sense Yakon or any of Babidi's minions for that matter. Kaioshin can't either, that's quite clear, yet he still wants to take the super cautious route in everything. By the same token, you can wonder why he was worried at all when Gohan, who's strength he knows, is standing right there.

You say that but the fact that he thought they wouldn't stand a chance without all working together doesn't speak very highly about how strong he is. But okay, if you think that.

When did he say they wouldn't stand a chance at all? He simply said that they should team up, because he's overly cautious. He should know that Gohan alone can make mincemeat of Yakon and Pui Pui, but since he doesn't know about them, he wants to get it over with as quickly as possible and with as little risk as possible.

Nobody really says he is anything amazing. Piccolo calls him that after assuming he was some sort of Kaio. Nobody gets a proper estimate on his battle power and Vegeta also says he isn't anything special. So I still see it as an overestimation of his ability on Piccolo's part. But you and I are entitled to our opinions.

Piccolo outright says Kaioshin is stronger by far, and no one doubts him. They all take his words as fact, pretty much saying that he can in fact accurately estimate that (otherwise they'd doubt him), and the story never contradicts them. Daizenshuu 2 and Daizenshuu 7 both further confirming this is just icing on the cake.

[White Oni]

Ok, can we please stop using the Dais as references?

For goodness sake, by that logic, the morons who think Vegetto = Goku's PL times Vegeta's PL are "confirmed" by the Dai...

The Dai does nothing more than present another person's interpretation of the author's work.

It's no different from one of us sharing our opinion.

I'm going to get crap for this, but really, it's the damn truth.

[RandomGuy96]

Ok, can we please stop using the Dais as references?

For goodness sake, by that logic, the morons who think Vegetto = Goku's PL times Vegeta's PL are "confirmed" by the Dai...

The Dai does nothing more than present another person's interpretation of the author's work.

It's no different from one of us sharing our opinion.

I'm going to get crap for this, but really, it's the damn truth.

One, if you're going to abbreviate it, at least say "Daiz".

Two, they never said that.

Three, the Daizenshuu guidebooks are officially approved and "supervised" by the author, praised by said author, and written by the people in charge of the franchise.

Four, no, it's not. Neither you nor I can state something in any official capacity on the franchise, unlike the ones who wrote those guidebooks. They override the opinions of random fans on the internet, even if said fans try to assert that they know better.