Future Trunks or Son Gokuu?

Panda · Post by **Panda** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:16 am

In Trunks' timeline Goku did defeat Freeza so they are atleast equal. I personally think Goku was tronger simply because he's more experienced.

Besides, he can be stronger (or weaker, whichever is your take) in more than one way:

Power: Goku is taller than Trunks... that's my only grasp on that situation.
Technique: Goku wins here simply because Goku has fought with many different people with many different styles of fighting. trunks has fought with Mirai (one-armed for that matter) Gohan and the Androids (I can't spell their Japanese name)
Form: This is hard to explain, but the way you kick and the way you punch someone has an effect on how much damage you will put onto your opponent. Trunks has decent form, he does use a sword with pretty much requires that. But Goku is a much better puncher than he is (I own no anime/manga so I'm sorry if I'm not being clear.)

Of course there are other way. Most of them basically boil down to Goku having more battle experience and what-not. but you are always free to make up your own mind.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:23 am

Don't forget that when Goku fought Freeza as a super saiyan that was not only his first time, but the first time anyone fought as a super saiyan (Canon-wise). Trunks has fought as a super saiyan longer and Freeza was weaker when he went to earth and his father, who is stronger than Freeza, wasn't in his final form.

He did the Burning Attack or what ever its called on Freeza. Goku cant do that.

Moves really don't mean crap. I can understand if it was on the tier of the spirit bomb's strength but it was stupid hand movements and a large blast. ANYONE CAN DO IT. Trunks has almost no fighting experience, Goku does and he is a smarter fighter. Goku for the win.

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:19 am

Mr.Piccolo wrote: Freeza was weaker when he went to earth and his father, who is stronger than Freeza, wasn't in his final form.

Umm, I don't think that Freeza's father (King Cold) was stronger than Freeza. We don't even know if he could transform further, but I suppose that he would had transformed if he wanted to.
If King Cold was stronger, wouldn't he have a greater reputation? Freeza was he most feared of them two I believe.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:06 am

Duo wrote:Toriyama-sensei wouldn't have Freeza make the statement that his strength increased without good reason behind it.

His strength did increase. But Mecha Freeza wasn't stronger than 100% Freeza on Namek, or Gohan would've said so.

And how was Goku not going for the kill? He just watched his best friend die. His decision to "let Freeza go" may well have been spur the moment, nothing part of his prior plans. Just his naiviette besting him at the moment. These things are not so translucent.

Like when he stood back and watched Freeza go 100% instead of killing him while he (Goku) was massively stronger? And then he tries twice to leave the battle, once while Freeza is still intact.

Rocket Man wrote:
Mecha Freeza isn't at max. When Yamcha wigs out over sensing Freeza's power, Gohan says something like "That's nothing, he can get much stronger."

Somebody with the manga check for the exact wording.
And...who's to say the Freeza didn't uncork the entirety of his strength when he attacked Trunks? Everything happened so fast, there was no chance for anyone to say "He's at his full power!" (The ONE TIME I wish there was some useless side-character commentary...).

How many times do DBZ characters go to full power without someone commenting on it? Or reacting to it?

There is a panel of side-character commentary after Freeza fires that blast at Trunks.

"They've started fighting!" No mention of power.

Again, we don't know the properties of his Cybernetic body, so we can't judge these things in such a way. Maybe he wasn't at full power, but maybe he was. Both possibilities are open! But Freeza explicitly said he had become stronger, and there's no reason to believe otherwise, and that statement wouldn't be included unless it was to get the point across that Trunks was easily stronger than a powered up Freeza, who prior to the power up had matched evenly with Super Saiyan Goku.

No, the reason is to scare the hell out of the readers. Goku's not there, Vegeta's not a Super Saiyan, and now Freeza's back, saying he's even stronger than the Freeza that kicked everybody's ass on Namek! Oh no!

I slightly altered the names of every person I quoted, in very insignificant ways for my amusement so that I could write this at the end of my post and make people go back and waste their time checking.

It's lonely. Out in space.

Perfect Weapon · Post by **Perfect Weapon** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:47 pm

Frieza is stronger than he was before. That much is stated. He says he could "probably" beat Goku as he is and as he remembers Goku. That's a statement he's only partially qualified to make, as, even though he's fought Goku before, he doesn't know how much stronger Goku is because he can't sense ki. Hence the "Probably". He's not entirely sure. But he is certain that seeing as King Kold, his father, is with him, it will be "no trouble" if they fight together. Since Frieza thinks he can win, it is indeed possible that, at 100% of his power, he can beat Goku at the power he was at as a Super Saiyan on Namek. However, he never powers up to 100%, so we'll never know. At most, he was at 75%. That seems to be the upper level of power that Frieza can hold without his muscles growing larger. How do we know he's not at 100%? Gohan says "This is nothing...He gets way stronger than this!" to the others upon Frieza's approach. So, Frieza isn't at 100%.

King Kold, contrary to popular speculation [due to the Anime, seemingly], is not stronger than Frieza. However, he is very strong. There are several comparisons made that seem to suggest Kold being around the power of Frieza as the Z - Fighters sense him. So, he's about the same power as Frieza's fraction of power that was displayed before he gets killed by Trunks [About 50% to 75%, is my estimate]. So, Kold is weaker than Frieza's 100% power. Further reasoning to back this up is that Frieza calls himself the strongest in the universe, and Kold does not contradict this, whilst Frieza is alive or dead. He just believes Trunks wields a special sword, hence being why he tried to take it away from him. If he were truly stronger than Frieza, he wouldn't have gone to all the trouble of trying to get Trunks' sword. He would've just said something like 'I'm stronger than Frieza, you won't beat me' and would've tried to kill Trunks himself. But he didn't. So, it seems that Frieza is stronger than his father.

Trunks' recorded power is a mere 5. It's obvious he's suppressing it. However, we have no clue as to how strong he really is in base form - just that he's stronger than the henchmen by a long way, and weaker than Frieza and his father. Trunks is stated as having the same power that SSJ Goku did on Namek when he transforms into an SSJ. So that's about 15 million [But not directly on it]. Trunks told Frieza quite clearly that if he wanted to beat him, he'd have to go all out. In other words, Trunks says he can only possibly be defeated by Frieza 100% power. And even then, it isn't certain; despite the fact that it's very possible that Frieza might have won at 100%. I tend to stray on the side of Trunks still being a teensy bit stronger than Frieza, still. However, I'll put Frieza 100% and Trunks SSJ as 'about equal', just to show it's debatable.

Son Goku has advanced in power even further. How much further? Not too much, I'd say. He's had a year of training, but he tells us that the majority of it was spent learning Shunkan Idou [Instant Transmission/Translocation/Instantaneous movement etc.]. However, as he can block Trunks' sword swipes with a finger, whilst Frieza gets sliced, diced and deep - fried, it's obvious by Goku's actions that he has become stronger.

superstar · Post by **superstar** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:20 pm

Saiyan wrote:And where exactly does it state that Goku wasn't holding back either?

I have to say...you're really dense. Based on all of the evidence we've given you, you still don't get it.

And to reply to your last post..Freeza WASN'T AT FULL POWER when facing Trunks, and was CAUGHT OFF GUARD.

Uh.. Goku states himself that Trunks was indeed holding back, I believe Goku would have said he was holding back himself if he really was.

LOL! show me your "evidence" that Goku was stronger than Trunks?

The fact that Trunks killed Freeza (with upgraded mechanical parts) and his men "INSTANTANEOUSLY!" (stated by Kurrin, Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo) is indeed faster and more powerful than anything Goku has done on Namek.

Prove to me Freeza was not at Full power? especially when he was upgraded with parts. Trunks killed Freeza in an "instant" how can you catch someone off gaurd in the shortest time possible?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 1:26 am

superstar wrote:LOL! show me your "evidence" that Goku was stronger than Trunks? The fact that Trunks killed Freeza (with upgraded mechanical parts) and his men "INSTANTANEOUSLY!" (stated by Kurrin, Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo) is indeed faster and more powerful than anything Goku has done on Namek.

Goku was holding back against non-100% Freeza. If he had used his full power, he could have killed Freeza just as quickly as Trunks later did.

Prove to me Freeza was not at Full power? especially when he was upgraded with parts.

Gohan says he isn't. Gohan has sensed 100% Freeza's ki, and Mecha Freeza's is much less.

Trunks killed Freeza in an "instant" how can you catch someone off gaurd in the shortest time possible?

Wha?

superstar · Post by **superstar** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 1:37 am

Goku was holding back against non-100% Freeza. If he had used his full power, he could have killed Freeza just as quickly as Trunks later did.

Oh really? I couldn't notice that, especially when an ENRAGED Goku PHYSICALLY beating Freeza to death after blowing up his best friend, yeah he was holding back.

Gohan says he isn't. Gohan has sensed 100% Freeza's ki, and Mecha Freeza's is much less.

Where is the real translation so I can see this for myself, I know I missed it somewhere in this thread?

Wha?

Yes Trunks killed Freeza and his men and it was ALL in an "INSTANT." It is stated in the canon manga.

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 1:46 am

Gohan says he isn't. Gohan has sensed 100% Freeza's ki, and Mecha Freeza's is much less.

Gohan never said either way. He just said that was definately Freeza.

Perfect Weapon · Post by **Perfect Weapon** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:47 am

Victator Supreme wrote:
Gohan says he isn't. Gohan has sensed 100% Freeza's ki, and Mecha Freeza's is much less.
Gohan never said either way. He just said that was definately Freeza.

"He gets way stronger than this."

=/

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:05 am

Perfect Weapon wrote:
Victator Supreme wrote:
Gohan says he isn't. Gohan has sensed 100% Freeza's ki, and Mecha Freeza's is much less.
Gohan never said either way. He just said that was definately Freeza.
"He gets way stronger than this."

=/

Organic Freeza did. We don't know what Cyborg Freeza's power is like. His cyberntic parts make all "If he was at full power someone would have said so, we only know he wasn't from what Gohan said" points null and void because Gohan DOESN'T know how strong Freeza is at that moment, just how much Ki he's got. And as 17 and 18 later proved, that means jack.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:34 am

Oh really? I couldn't notice that, especially when an ENRAGED Goku PHYSICALLY beating Freeza to death after blowing up his best friend, yeah he was holding back.

Goku hits Freeza six times (three punches, one elbow, one kiai, one headbutt) before Freeza attacks Namek. Meanwhile, he's chatting with Freeza and linviting Freeza to hit him with ki attacks, then laughing at him when those attacks fail. That's not the actions of someone in a blind fury.

Goku wanted to destroy Freeza's pride, not kill him.

Where is the real translation so I can see this for myself, I know I missed it somewhere in this thread?

Have to ask someone else, I don't have the Viz manga with me.

Yes Trunks killed Freeza and his men and it was ALL in an "INSTANT." It is stated in the canon manga.

That just means he's fast. And Goku's faster due to Instant Transmission.

Pedro The Hutt · Post by **Pedro The Hutt** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:50 pm

Also, don't forget, he already had been fighting Freeza for quite some time at that point, and just performed a genki dama.

Even if going SSJ gave him a massive boost, I don't think it automatically cures fatigue and/or any injuries or strained muscles he might've suffered before that event. And as mentioned before, it was the first time he went Super Saiyajin, he had no mastery at all over that form, so all those factors worked against him when fighting "Full Power Freeza".

Now if Goku had just gotten out of bed, had his favourite breakfast and then went out to turn SSJ for the 100th time he probably would've done significantly better than he did on Namek.

So~ With the training he had since then, and being in prime form when he arrived back on earth, I'm sure that if anything he would've been equal to Trunks at the time. (Plus he has the main character clause, makes him stronger by default. XD)

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:36 pm

Oh good lord. Superstar asked another question.

"LOL! show me your "evidence" that Goku was stronger than Trunks? "

Okay - how about the 'block the sword attack with my damn hand' - repeatedly. You know what? That's enough evidence. If there was any evidence that Trunks was as strong or stronger than Goku, we could discuss it more. But there isn't.

Goku was stronger than Trunks. Is this so strnage? Is it so difficult to accept?

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:38 pm

Goku = stronger.

That's why Trunks wanted his help.

Trunks told that Goku was greater than his rumor said.

Li'l Lemmy · Post by **Li'l Lemmy** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:46 pm

desirecampbell wrote:Oh good lord. Superstar asked another question.

"LOL! show me your "evidence" that Goku was stronger than Trunks? "

Okay - how about the 'block the sword attack with my damn hand' - repeatedly. You know what? That's enough evidence. If there was any evidence that Trunks was as strong or stronger than Goku, we could discuss it more. But there isn't.

Goku was stronger than Trunks. Is this so strnage? Is it so difficult to accept?

Hmm. Well, forget what we see in the on-screen "battle" . . . wasn't the whole point of Trunks going back in time to rescue Goku from the virus? If Bulma went through all that trouble to build the time machine and Trunks made the God-like decision to screw with known history, I would think their reason is because Goku might be able to accomplish something that Trunks can't.

Goku > Trunks. I can accept it.

chibi_goten · Post by **chibi_goten** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:32 pm

Goku, could have won.

He was putting in no effort, and was stronger then what he was when he fought Freeza on Namek.

Trunks was holding back, but he was still trying harder the Goku.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:57 pm

Freeza came back after nearly dying. He received parts to help keep him alive. That is like saying if someone lost their legs in a war and now uses a wheelchair, they are better than before. Seeing how Freeza is you would understand that he would probably kill King Kold if he was stronger than him. The only reason King Kold's reputation wasn't heard was... I don't know... KING KOLD DIDN'T EXIST. DragonBall was suppose to end with the Freeza fight, what would be the point of building a rep. for a character that would never be seen. Freeza was weaker that is probably why Trunks made short work of him; Freeza was killed before he got a chance to go full power (if he still could that is).

I think the reason Freeza was killed so easy was because they wanted to hype up Trunks and the next threat to come.

Arrival of Freeza
Goku > Trunks
Trunks > King Kold
King Kold > Freeza

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:52 pm

Mr.Piccolo wrote:Freeza came back after nearly dying. He received parts to help keep him alive. That is like saying if someone lost their legs in a war and now uses a wheelchair, they are better than before.

A better comparison would probably be Steve Austin. But I guess it wouldn't exactly help you, then. ^^;

Seeing how Freeza is you would understand that he would probably kill King Kold if he was stronger than him.

It's not like we know much about how Freeza feels about his family.

DragonBall was suppose to end with the Freeza fight

Er... Source, please?

King Kold > Freeza

Not according to the Daizenshû.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:12 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Mr.Piccolo wrote:
King Kold > Freeza
DragonBall was suppose to end with the Freeza fight
Er... Source, please?

Crap. Trust me, its been said many times. I'll try my best to link you to this asap.

mr.piccolo wrote:King Kold > Freeza

Olivier Hague wrote:Not according to the Daizenshû.

Scan please.