Is Tenshinhan considered human? Tenshinhan vs Kuririn

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:13 am

How are episodes of the actual show not reliable but some magazine is?

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:54 am

Victator Supreme wrote:How are episodes of the actual show not reliable but some magazine is?

That's actually a pretty god point. And here I was about to concede the argument.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:14 am

Victator Supreme wrote:How are episodes of the actual show not reliable but some magazine is?

The Daizenshû aren't "magazines".

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:27 am

Olivier Hague wrote:
Victator Supreme wrote:How are episodes of the actual show not reliable but some magazine is?
The Daizenshû aren't "magazines".

Sure they aren't. But they are printed, just like magazines are. What I think he mean is that the Daizenshuu, just like the TV-show are made after the manga. Still, parts of the show is seen as non-canon whilst the Daizenshuu is seen as fully canon. And Toriyama agreed on their publishing and blessed them both I believe. And yet the show is non-canon? Shouldn't some of the Daizenshuu then be non-canon then too? Like maybe the three eyed tribe thing?
The show has fillers to try to explain some of the things that happened and to fill the series out. Can't it be the same thing with the Daizenshuu, that it contains filler?

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:47 pm

So you're saying that Tenshinhan and Yamcha can beat up a Cell Jr.? That Yamcha could easily dispatch Reccome? The difference between filler and the Daizenshuu is that filler contradict everything, and even change things from the original manga. (Like Cell having Tenshinhan's cells)

Filler has been shown to be untrustworthy many times, is very non-canon, can just not make any sense at all, and it looks ugly. This compared to books of wealthy and accurate information about the manga...is well...not comparable. The Daizenshuu had thought put into it, when it seems that filler was just made to be that. Filler.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:49 pm

Drunken Master wrote:So you're saying that Tenshinhan and Yamcha can beat up a Cell Jr.? That Yamcha could easily dispatch Reccome? The difference between filler and the Daizenshuu is that filler contradict everything, and even change things from the original manga. (Like Cell having Tenshinhan's cells)

Filler has been shown to be untrustworthy many times, is very non-canon, can just not make any sense at all, and it looks ugly. This compared to books of wealthy information about the manga...is well...not comparable.

Actually, it is comparable. Yamcha beating up Recoome might not be canon, but there's nothing to say it's impossible - it's just not mentioned anywhere else... kind of like this 'alien' thing.

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:52 pm

I don't understand. It's filler, it's just made to take up space. There's no way that Yamcha could beat up Reccome in the amount of time he stayed up there. And the alien thing is mention in the Daizenshuu and DBZ: Sparking. I'm sure you read that by now though.

Mr. Announcer · Post by **Mr. Announcer** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:57 pm

Drunken Master wrote:Here's the reactions of everyone, plus some unscanned quotes. This is to counter his abilites being 'normal', or 'human' and the huge assumption that these techniques could be used by anyone. This is simply not true.

After Tenshinhan's Four Bodies technique -
Announcer: H-How bizarre...there appear to be four Tenshinhans!!! How can this be...?!!!
Kuririn: "I've never seen anything like this...! Tenshinhan is beyond belief...!!!"

After Tenshinhan's Shiyo-ken -
Announcer: H-How did he do this...?! It's unb-believable...!! Is it sleight of hand...?!!!

Notice everyone's facial reactions. Even the animal people.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f219/ ... bodies.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f219/ ... urarms.jpg

Yeah, yeah, I mixed up the file names. I'm too lazy to fix them.

Okay, first off, the Shiyo-ken. The announcer must have seen many weird and unsual things in his time, right? Then why is he freaking so much? It's because what Tenshinhan just did is NOT normal. The announcer has seen giant monkeys and wolfmen as well. Also, Roshi in all his prime hasn't seen anything like this. He's old, yet he's freaked out. Look at the man's face! He's seen demons before!

Secondly, the four bodies technique. Same thing with the announcer guy. He freaks out. The main thing here is Piccolo, who was a demon at this point seems shocked. Piccolo shocked? Is this normal? Umm...no. Also, does anybody know what Shishin means? Tenshinhan calls this the Shishin "Four Bodies" move.

Oh c'mon, as if it isn't the announcer's job to sound as surprised and totally excited as possible at everything. You make it sound as if he wasn't surprised by the apes or "manwolves" just as much, if not more so. If you see a guy sprout two extra arms or split into four people you're going to be surpised no matter how many strange things you see, especially if you have 3 years of normalcy in between each tournament. Personally I would look just as surprised if a duck quacked very loudly behind me as I would if I saw a meteor crash into the house across the street. I'm not sure what that had to do with anything.....

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:01 pm

Drunken Master wrote:I don't understand. It's filler, it's just made to take up space. There's no way that Yamcha could beat up Reccome in the amount of time he stayed up there. And the alien thing is mention in the Daizenshuu and DBZ: Sparking. I'm sure you read that by now though.

Something written by someone other than the author cannot be taken as canon - this includes filler and the daizenshuu (and a videogame as well).

Just like the Yamcha/Recoome fight doesn't seem to make any sense, but doesn't really have any contradictions, the 'Ten is an alien' thing doesn't really make any sense but doesn't really have any contradictions either.

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:17 pm

Didn't he oversee the production of the Daizenshuu? They're books for the manga and the anime. So if you wanted accurate information about the anime, you can check one of those, but it won't be accurate with the manga. The Sparking! game has official and accurate information, it doesn't matter if AT himself didn't write it. Everytime it says something about filler or a movie it makes sure to say "In the anime, this happens". Since the statment that Ten's ancestors aren't human are not only in the Daizenshuu, but in a very accurate biography section of game, I think people should at least consider him not being human or 100% human, and not just kill it off because people have thought of him as human all this time. I mean, look at all my evidence, it explains some things. Especially my last post with the scans.

There are contradictions with Yamcha vs Reccome. Vegeta couldn't beat Reccome. That's all you have to say. Vegeta was much stronger than Yamcha before he died. Yamcha wasn't up there that long when the Ginyu Force was summoned, so thus it doesn't make any sense.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:01 pm

Godo wrote:Sure they aren't. But they are printed, just like magazines are.

... And now, it all... makes... sense? ^^;

What I think he mean is that the Daizenshuu, just like the TV-show are made after the manga. Still, parts of the show is seen as non-canon whilst the Daizenshuu is seen as fully canon.

The purpose of a databook is to provide information.
Whereas the purpose of anime filler is... Well, I believe it's all in the name, really.
So if I had to choose which to trust...

The show has fillers to try to explain some of the things that happened and to fill the series out.

Er... They were just buying time, really. ^^;

Can't it be the same thing with the Daizenshuu, that it contains filler?

I doubt they really needed one dozen of extra characters on that page...

desirecampbell wrote:Something written by someone other than the author cannot be taken as canon - this includes filler and the daizenshuu (and a videogame as well).

Could we please get over the fact that mangaka don't write databooks? That's both obvious (different jobs? yes?) and beside the point: just because the book wasn't written by Toriyama himself, that doesn't necessarily mean the idea of Tenshinhan descending from aliens isn't his.

the 'Ten is an alien' thing doesn't really make any sense

Why not?

GI_Judd2287 · Post by **GI_Judd2287** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:11 pm

There's nothing to indicate he's an alien in either the comic book or the cartoon. His third eye and fantastic abilities reflect the series' sensibilities of the times. How come nobody questions Chaozu of being an alien? Or any of the other freaks who participate in the Tenkaichi Budokai? He's a human, just a very weird one.

On a funny note, my friend believed his third eye was a tattoo since he never saw it move.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:36 pm

GI_Judd2287 wrote:There's nothing to indicate he's an alien in either the comic book or the cartoon.

'Doesn't mean he isn't.

His third eye and fantastic abilities reflect the series' sensibilities of the times.

So does Gokû's tail.
Come on, guys... Are we still there?

How come nobody questions Chaozu of being an alien?

They never said he was, so...

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:29 pm

Olivier Hague pretty much answered everything.

GI_Judd2287 · Post by **GI_Judd2287** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:33 pm

Saying Tenshinhan is an alien is just speculation. I don't have a problem with that, and it obviously makes way more sense. I was just saying it's not a fact. There's nothing wrong with that, is there?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:21 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
GI_Judd2287 wrote:There's nothing to indicate he's an alien in either the comic book or the cartoon.
'Doesn't mean he isn't.

Also doesn't mean he is.

Casual Matt · Post by **Casual Matt** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:45 pm

Well, we have the Daizenshuu and Sparking! profiles indicating that Tenshinhan has some alien decent.

Nothing in the manga contradicts this.

Even for all you manga purists who only rely on the manga for info, it's a distinct possibility. But then again, my English prof always says to only give evidence from the text. Not to assume from what's not in it.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:49 pm

GI_Judd2287 wrote:Saying Tenshinhan is an alien is just speculation.

It's stated in the Daizenshû, so it's not "just speculation".

Rocketman wrote:
Olivier Hague wrote:
GI_Judd2287 wrote:There's nothing to indicate he's an alien in either the comic book or the cartoon.
'Doesn't mean he isn't.
Also doesn't mean he is.

Boy, we're making huge progresses, here! *wipes single tear*

kinoko · Post by **kinoko** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:08 am

My goodness, where are we in this discussion? I don't even know if I can contribute anything.

Just as Drunken Master, Olivier Hague, and many of you have pointed out - there's a lot of evidence supporting the theory/speculation/fact/what have you that Tenshinhan is not fully human. Does it matter whether he is or isn't an alien or from alien descent? He's such an amazing guy anyway. What are we arguing here - his origins or the validity of the source from which the info comes?

I'm sorry about the whole Daizenshuu thing. To me it was a tremendous shock to learn they weren't written by Mr. Toriyama, because I'd always, always believed they were, and therefor everything written in them are canon. (And I can't agree with you, Olivier Hague, that all mangaka don't write their databooks. ><)

I think there are a lot of unanswered questions about the characters - there are so many of them, and also that Toriyama tended to neglect some of his +cough+non-Saiyajin+cough+ characters. ^^;; It's a bit frustrating; for canon purposes and in general for fans who want to *know* more about them. Perhaps I'm asking for too much - DB is primarily of the martial arts/action genre, and I'm not saying the story is without awesome characterization and character arcs (for Vegeta and Piccolo, in particular.) I guess what I am saying is that I'd have loved to have more backstory on Tenshinhan - his training with Tsuru-sennin and Tao Pai Pai, his friendship with Chaozu. But I suppose the lack of backstory leaves a lot to the imagination, which can also be a nice thing. ^^

(Hmm, I would love to hear Mike, Julian, and Meri tackle this question in one of their podcasts!)

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:12 am

It's stated in the Daizenshû, so it's not "just speculation".

Yes thats been established. What is being debated now is the worth of the Daizenshu.