Is Tenshinhan considered human? Tenshinhan vs Kuririn

[desirecampbell]

There are contradictions with Yamcha vs Reccome. Vegeta couldn't beat Reccome. That's all you have to say. Vegeta was much stronger than Yamcha before he died. Yamcha wasn't up there that long when the Ginyu Force was summoned, so thus it doesn't make any sense.

He wasn't up there long enough in you opinion. There's nothing shown to say Yamcha's not stronger than Recoome.

So, if the daizenshuu saying that Ten is an alien is to be taken as fact, so is Yamcha being stronger than Recoome.

Could we please get over the fact that mangaka don't write databooks? That's both obvious (different jobs? yes?) and beside the point: just because the book wasn't written by Toriyama himself, that doesn't necessarily mean the idea of Tenshinhan descending from aliens isn't his.

Toriyama didn't write it, so it can't be taken as "canon" (in the stricted sense) - that's not something to get over, it's something you need to understand. That's what "canon" means. Whether this information is correct and whether this information is "canon" is the same question. This is a fictional peice of literature, whatever the author says is true, other people have no weight in the matter.

If the idea is in fact from Toriyama, then it gains more weight. It doesn't make it "canon", the author's input simply means it should be taken more seriously. Toriyama did character designs for many of the movies - that doesn't make them canon either.

Yeah, yeah - and 'Sparking!' said the same thing. Big deal. Are we suppossed to start taking video games as canon now?

the 'Ten is an alien' thing doesn't really make any sense

Why not?

Because it would diverge from previously establish narative styles. Toriyama has made it very clear when any character is an alien. Goku (and the rest of the Saiyans), Kami, and Piccolo are aliens. No one else is said to be an alien. If there were other examples of characters being aliens and their heritage being mentioned only in passing, perhaps this daizenshuu entry wouldn't seem so peculiar. But, in fact, there's no reason to think Ten is an alien other than this strange, un-Toriyama-like entry.


And as AnnouncerGuy pointed out, Ten's techniques in the budokai were crazy weird. Not alien, per say. Just weird. Noone's seen that kind of thing before, so they were surprised. Is that so hard to accept? That they were surprised?

[Olivier Hague]

I can't agree with you, Olivier Hague, that all mangaka don't write their databooks. ><

I guess there may be exceptions, but I've never seen such a book myself...

Toriyama didn't write it, so it can't be taken as "canon" (in the stricted sense)

Sorry, but that's just BS. If the information comes from Toriyama (and there's no reason to assume it doesn't), it's canon. It doesn't matter who wrote it down.

That's what "canon" means.

No, that's quite a narrow definition of "canon". You can have some author deciding that a novel based on his series and written by somebody else is canon, for example.
Maybe you should take a look at the Wikipedia entry... Things aren't as simple or clear cut as you apparently think they are.

If the idea is in fact from Toriyama, then it gains more weight. It doesn't make it "canon", the author's input simply means it should be taken more seriously.

You're basically saying that even if the idea was indeed provided by Toriyama, it can't be canon unless it appears in the manga itself, is that it?
So if Toriyama were to tell us, say, Yamcha's age, it still wouldn't be canon as far as you're concerned, because there wouldn't be a scene in the manga where they actually talk about that?

Toriyama did character designs for many of the movies - that doesn't make them canon either.

So now you're comparing the movies and the Daizenshû? Come on...
The movies are original stories (that contradict the manga on many levels).
The Daizenshû are databooks. Not novels or anything like that.

the 'Ten is an alien' thing doesn't really make any sense

Why not?

Because it would diverge from previously establish narative styles.

I must have missed the chapter about Woolong's ancestry. Or else, it would be extremely unlike Toriyama to neglect to tell us all about that.

Goku (and the rest of the Saiyans), Kami, and Piccolo are aliens. No one else is said to be an alien.

Does that necessarily mean that no one else is?

there's no reason to think Ten is an alien

Except for his third eye and weird abilities?

I mean, when the guy first appeared, I wondered if he was considered a freak by the other inhabitants of that world.
It could go both ways, really, as it's not like we could tell for sure. To them, Gokû was a freak of nature ("he has a tail!! he transforms into a huge ape-thing!!") and Woolong not so much ("oh, so he's a shapeshifter..."). What about Tenshinhan, then?
Now, you were assuming it was the latter, and the Daizenshû seems to point at the former (then again, they didn't say anything about him being unique). Does that make the Daizenshû wrong?

other than this strange, un-Toriyama-like entry.

Yeah, 'cause it's not like him to decide that a character is an alien after all.
It would just be an ura settei. Ura settei are pretty common, in manga.

And as AnnouncerGuy pointed out, Ten's techniques in the budokai were crazy weird. Not alien, per say. Just weird.

And I'm pretty sure that's what he said, too! "Now that's crazy weird! Not alien, mind you, just weird!"
Again, you can't tell, based on the manga alone. Yes, it could go both ways. No, it wouldn't contradict anything for Tenshinhan to descend from aliens. Yes, it would work.

As far as I can tell, your only problem with the Daizenshû entry is that it goes against your assumption. I'm sorry but that's pretty weak.

[desirecampbell]

Toriyama didn't write it, so it can't be taken as "canon" (in the stricted sense)

Sorry, but that's just BS. If the information comes from Toriyama (and there's no reason to assume it doesn't), it's canon. It doesn't matter who wrote it down.

That's what "canon" means.

No, that's quite a narrow definition of "canon". You can have some author deciding that a novel based on his series and written by somebody else is canon, for example.

If by "narrow" you mean "accurate", then I agree.

Maybe you should take a look at the Wikipedia entry... Things aren't as simple or clear cut as you apparently think they are.

Well, that's an article about an aplication of the term 'canon'. The idea there is that there are 'levels' of canon. I agree with that idea, I support a tierd DragonBall canon system. In fact I've brought it up before.

The best way to think about 'canon' in DragonBall is to use a tired structure (like Star Wars canon).

There are a series of 'levels'. Each level supersedes any information from a lower level that contradicts it. For instance, in the manga Super Saiyan hair is a deep gold colour, but in the anime it is nearly white - the manga's version is taken as "more canonical".

1. Kanzenban manga - re-edited, and fixed - better than original - by Toriyama himself.

2. tankobon manga - original work, but contains errors and omissions corrected in the Kanzenban.

3. Original Japanese Anime, based on manga - DragonBall, DragonBall Z, Trunks special - disregarding filler. This includes instances that are derived directly from the manga, but are changed somehow (like the SSj hair colour, Goku's gi colour, when Pilaf shows up, and the friggin week that was the Freeza fight).

4. Original Japanese Anime not based on manga, produced by Toei for the series - DB/DBZ filler, DragonBall GT, Bardock special, GT Special. This includes any animation made for the series, but not based on any direct manga counterpart. Like the Garlic Jr saga, the driving episode, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Krillin helping out at the Cell games.

5. Original Japanese DB/DBZ movies - produced by Toei, but not meant to 'fit' into the series' storyline.

6. Original Video Animation for video games, game shows, fire safety videos, commercials, etc. - produced by Toei, but absolutely not supposed to represent the events of the story in any way.

7. Games (video, card, board, etc) - nothing taken from any game-based mechanics or story should be taken as literal to the story.


--------
You'll notice that I specifically mentioned the original Japanese animation there, and no other country's dubs. Replications of the original animation and script should never be taken as canon. The only time a dub is ever taken as any kind of authority is when it is equivalent to the original animation.

You seem to be using the original 'canon' term, not the 'fictional canon' term. In the former there is 'canon' and 'non-canon', very cut and dry. In the latter, there are 'levels' of canon. So, either the daizenshuu are 'non-canon' or 'low tier canon'. Take your pick.

You're basically saying that even if the idea was indeed provided by Toriyama, it can't be canon unless it appears in the manga itself, is that it?

That's exactly what I mean. Toriyama had a hand in a lot of stuff. He came up with a lot of the stuff for the movies, hell, he designhed the new Mecha-Freeza in 'Super DragonBall Z'. They aren't 'canon' either.

So if Toriyama were to tell us, say, Yamcha's age, it still wouldn't be canon as far as you're concerned, because there wouldn't be a scene in the manga where they actually talk about that?

Yes (see the 'levels of canon')

So now you're comparing the movies and the Daizenshû? Come on...
The movies are original stories (that contradict the manga on many levels).
The Daizenshû are databooks. Not novels or anything like that.

Supplimental materials written by someone other than the author? No not like novels or movies at all </sarcasm>

I must have missed the chapter about Woolong's ancestry. Or else, it would be extremely unlike Toriyama to neglect to tell us all about that.

Who is 'Woolong'? What are you getting at?

Goku (and the rest of the Saiyans), Kami, and Piccolo are aliens. No one else is said to be an alien.

Does that necessarily mean that no one else is?

No, but it doesn't mean that more are aliens either.

there's no reason to think Ten is an alien

Except for his third eye and weird abilities?

What about Krillin's "no nose"? "Weird abilities"? Are you new to DBZ? 'Weird' is the order of the day.

I mean, when the guy first appeared, I wondered if he was considered a freak by the other inhabitants of that world.
It could go both ways, really, as it's not like we could tell for sure. To them, Gokû was a freak of nature ("he has a tail!! he transforms into a huge ape-thing!!") and Woolong not so much ("oh, so he's a shapeshifter..."). What about Tenshinhan, then?
Now, you were assuming it was the latter, and the Daizenshû seems to point at the former (then again, they didn't say anything about him being unique). Does that make the Daizenshû wrong?

It doesn't mean it's wrong, it means there's no suplimentary evidence to support it. It's either 'non-canon' or 'low tier canon'.

other than this strange, un-Toriyama-like entry.

Yeah, 'cause it's not like him to decide that a character is an alien after all.
It would just be an ura settei. Ura settei are pretty common, in manga.

Yeah, that's possible - but very different from estanlished literary techique.

And as AnnouncerGuy pointed out, Ten's techniques in the budokai were crazy weird. Not alien, per say. Just weird.

And I'm pretty sure that's what he said, too! "Now that's crazy weird! Not alien, mind you, just weird!"
Again, you can't tell, based on the manga alone. Yes, it could go both ways. No, it wouldn't contradict anything for Tenshinhan to descend from aliens. Yes, it would work.

What 'would work'? The reactions don't prove that he's an alien. They don't disprove it either. Not disproving it doesn't help. The reactions of the crowd don't disprove that his balls were showing either, they could've been. "It would work".

As far as I can tell, your only problem with the Daizenshû entry is that it goes against your assumption. I'm sorry but that's pretty weak.

And your only problem is that you refuse to accept the definition of 'canon'.

[Godo]

Lets say like this, what if the fact of the Daizenshuu about Tien is assumption? What if a man assumed that Tien was an alien? What if it just happened to slip through the "Truth Net"?
Face it, no Gods made the daizenshuu, only mere humans. And humans are capable to make mistakes. I get sick of this discussion.

[Olivier Hague]

If by "narrow" you mean "accurate"

Haha. No.

So, either the daizenshuu are 'non-canon' or 'low tier canon'. Take your pick.

Well, that doesn't seem biased at all.

He came up with a lot of the stuff for the movies, hell, he designhed the new Mecha-Freeza in 'Super DragonBall Z'. They aren't 'canon' either.

Maybe because they contradict the manga anyway? 'Just saying...

So if Toriyama were to tell us, say, Yamcha's age, it still wouldn't be canon as far as you're concerned, because there wouldn't be a scene in the manga where they actually talk about that?

Yes (see the 'levels of canon')

Dude. That's just stupid. And your totally-unbiased-absolutely-objective levels of canon won't change that.

Supplimental materials written by someone other than the author?

Did you know that Toriyama didn't print the manga himself? I hear he didn't even type the dialogues. I guess that means it's not canon.

Who is 'Woolong'?

Are you serious?

Goku (and the rest of the Saiyans), Kami, and Piccolo are aliens. No one else is said to be an alien.

Does that necessarily mean that no one else is?

No, but it doesn't mean that more are aliens either.

Like I said earlier: huge progresses. No, really.
*sigh*

What about Krillin's "no nose"?

Well, they never said anything about him being an alien, as far as I know.
But if you know something that I don't, go ahead. Then we'll talk about him, too.

Are you new to DBZ?

Gee, I don't know. Who is Woolong, again?

It doesn't mean it's wrong, it means there's no suplimentary evidence to support it.

Why do you need supplementary evidence anyway?
It's been stated in an official databook supervised by Toriyama. And it's been stated again in a videogame. In both cases, it wasn't part of a "non-canon story": it was an extra bit of background info.

You decided that there was some "rule" dictating that "supplementary evidence" was needed. And you decided that said "evidence" had to be in the manga itself (which, conveniently enough, ended a decade ago!).
Can't you just admit that you simply don't want to accept that extra bit of background info? It really shows anyway, and that would save us all a lot of time.

It's either 'non-canon' or 'low tier canon'.

Because you decided that's how it would be. Now that's a compelling argument, to be sure.

Again, you can't tell, based on the manga alone. Yes, it could go both ways. No, it wouldn't contradict anything for Tenshinhan to descend from aliens. Yes, it would work.

What 'would work'?

*sigh*
Tenshinhan descending from aliens.

The reactions don't prove that he's an alien. They don't disprove it either.

That might even be what I meant when I said "you can't tell, based on the manga alone. Yes, it could go both ways."
I even started that part with "again", amusingly enough. But hey, who doesn't love running in circles?

The reactions of the crowd don't disprove that his balls were showing either, they could've been. "It would work".

Yes, it would.
But then again, the Daizenshû state that Tenshinhan descends from aliens. So...

what if the fact of the Daizenshuu about Tenshinhan is assumption?

Well, it's definitely not worded like an assumption or a theory, but like a fact.
You apparently mean "what if that was a mistake?", and we already talked about that, I believe...

If it's a mistake... well, it's a mistake. You could also theorize that "Dragon Ball Z Sparking!" simply reproduced the mistake, and we wouldn't have anything stating that Tenshinhan descends from aliens anymore.
If it's not.... You know the rest.

Can we tell for sure one way or another? Nope.

Then again, there's the question I asked a few times already: "how does one make a mistake like that?" I, for one, think it would be a pretty weird mistake.
On the other hand, ura settei like that aren't unusual at all.
So that makes one of the possibilites a lot more likely than the other, in my opinion.

no Gods made the daizenshuu, only mere humans.

And humans are fallible, yes.
Still, I'm no statistician, but I don't think "coming up with an alien ascendancy as well as the name of the species when there really wasn't anything like that at all in the first place" is a common mistake.

[Godo]

I can contenly say that I am writing this post without reading the answer of yours to it. Please answer to my whole post, if you want me to read it.

Goodnight.

[Victator Supreme]

If Toriyama himself said in an interview that Tenshinhan was an Alien, thats good enough for me. But not some source book he rubber stamped.

[Olivier Hague]

I can contenly say that I am writing this post without reading the answer of yours to it.

Er... I'm not even sure I understand that sentence.

Please answer to my whole post, if you want me to read it.

Ah, yes. I didn't quote your whole post, so that must mean I totally twisted your words. Naturally.
Come on...

[desirecampbell]

You know what? I can't do this anymore. Hague is being an unreasonable jackass. I'm making my final points and never coming back.

The daizenshuu are not 'canon'. In either the actual definition of canon or the more loose 'fictional canon' that Hague tried to use to back himself up. The daizenshuu are either non-canon or low-tier canon, depending on what type of 'canon' we're talking about.

Hague, stop trying to sound like an elitist asshole. the circumflex doesn't make you more trustworthy - it makes you look like a prick. And I'm sorry that 'Woolong' confused me. I found it odd that you'd want to put a 'w' in front of 'Oolong'. It's a rather odd way of spelling it. Again, it just makes you sound like an elitist jackass.

[Olivier Hague]

The daizenshuu are not 'canon'. In either the actual definition of canon or the more loose 'fictional canon' that Hague tried to use to back himself up.

Not when you define it with your very own "levels", naturally.

The daizenshuu are either non-canon or low-tier canon

Because who could possibly think of any other possibilities besides these two? They'd have to be biased or something!

Hague, stop trying to sound like an elitist asshole.

Dude. Who came up with "who's Woolong?"

the circumflex doesn't make you more trustworthy - it makes you look like a prick.

Oh, hey! Look! After comparing me to Superstar (banned by the webmaster), he's now criticizing me for my use of circumflex accents (criticized by the webmaster)! I totally can't see where he's going with that!

And I'm sorry that 'Woolong' confused me.

Yeah, I'm sure that one extra letter confused you so much you had absolutely no idea as to who I was talking about. I can buy that.

It's a rather odd way of spelling it.

It's a rather common way of spelling it, actually.

Again, it just makes you sound like an elitist jackass.

Just tell me what doesn't, according to you. That should save us some time.

[Kaboom]

Catfight!

I had a feeling this thread would end up being nothing but trouble. It's why I didn't contribute up until now.

Seriously, both/anyone involved in this should knock it off. It's a simple little discussion, on a question someone asked about their favorite character. It's nothing important, but you guys are each acting as if the other has said unkind things about your mother. It's getting petty, not to mention completely off whatever the topic is supposed to be.

Mike-sama, if you're reading this, then I don't know about you, But I would lock this topic before things get uglier.

[Anonymous Friend]

Ye kno what, guys? we should just bypass Toriyama and the daizenshuu and go straight to the source to get the answer. and as soon as i finish the repairs to my inter-dimensional teleportal, i'm gonna take a trip to the Dragonball World and ask Tenshinhan himself. although if even he may not know, we may never get a straight answer.

[kinoko]

Ye kno what, guys? we should just bypass Toriyama and the daizenshuu and go straight to the source to get the answer. and as soon as i finish the repairs to my inter-dimensional teleportal, i'm gonna take a trip to the Dragonball World and ask Tenshinhan himself. although if even he doesn't know, we may never get a straight answer.

Sans the sarcasm/ironic humor, I'm totally on board with your idea! ^^

[Kaboom]

Ye kno what, guys? we should just bypass Toriyama and the daizenshuu and go straight to the source to get the answer. and as soon as i finish the repairs to my inter-dimensional teleportal, i'm gonna take a trip to the Dragonball World and ask Tenshinhan himself. although if even he doesn't know, we may never get a straight answer.

Sans the sarcasm/ironic humor, I'm totally on board with your idea! ^^

Quick! To the bad fanfiction-mobile!

Dunnuh dunnuh dunnuh dunnuh dunnuh dunnuh dunnuh dunnuh Badfiiic!!

[Anonymous Friend]

it just that this is the 6th page of this and it's starting to get personal, i think. even if he is an alien, if the blood line has been diluded and if he doesn't know of his heritage, does it really matter much? would it change our view of him as a character, as a fighter? and even more so would he consider himself to be an alien?

[kinoko]

it just that this is the 6th page of this and it's starting to get personal, i think. even if he is an alien, if the blood line has been diluded and if he doesn't know of his heritage

I agree, too personal. We started this thread ("we" as in Drunken Master. So blame him! Just kidding, dude.) questioning Tenshinhan's ancestry but are now debating whether or not the Daizenshuu are canon and what-is-canon-anyway? -_-

does it really matter much? would it change our view of him as a character, as a fighter? and even more so would he consider himself to be an alien?

Amen. And, not one little bit! ^___^ He'll always be the greatest character to grace the DB universe - human, not-quite-human, or alien (does that sentence even make sense?)

Quick! To the bad fanfiction-mobile!

Dunnuh dunnuh dunnuh dunnuh dunnuh dunnuh dunnuh dunnuh Badfiiic!!

Haha!

[Casual Matt]

Quick! To the bad fanfiction-mobile!

I call shotgun!

Oh, and I think this bring up the point that it's probable that Tenshinhan himself doesn't even know anything about his ancestry. Heck, he seemed to be orphaned when he trained with Tsuru-Sen'nin.

[kinoko]

Heck, he seemed to be orphaned when he trained with Tsuru-Sen'nin.

I'm so going to explore that part of his story. Man.. Ah, Tenshinhan~~ Why must you be so, so....?

[Kaboom]

Quick! To the bad fanfiction-mobile!

I call shotgun!

No tights.

Oh, and I think this bring up the point that it's probable that Tenshinhan himself doesn't even know anything about his ancestry. Heck, he seemed to be orphaned when he trained with Tsuru-Sen'nin.

Some poor, young, orphaned member of a powerful alien race arriving on Earth to end up training to become a great martial artist and eventually having a hand in saving the world?

Nah, that'd never happen.





Never mind about locking this thread, Mike. I think I fixed it.

[Rocketman]

Heck, he seemed to be orphaned when he trained with Tsuru-Sen'nin.

I'm so going to explore that part of his story. Man.. Ah, Tenshinhan~~ Why must you be so, so....?

Useless?

*flee*