Is Tenshinhan considered human? Tenshinhan vs Kuririn

[Synthe]

-Is Tenshinhan human?
-Is the Daizenshuu reliable?
-Is Tenshinhan stronger than Kuririn?

1.Yes, the eye is symbolism daizenshuu isnt one hundred correct toriyama.was done with his series and it seems that he wouldn't have wasted his time doing it.
2.if supported by the manga.
3.Yes but that doesn't prove anything important.

[Mr.Piccolo]

-Is Tenshinhan human?
-Is the Daizenshuu reliable?
-Is Tenshinhan stronger than Kuririn?

1.Yes, the eye is symbolism daizenshuu isnt one hundred correct toriyama.was done with his series and it seems that he wouldn't have wasted his time doing it.
2.if supported by the manga.
3.Yes but that doesn't prove anything.

Look at the thread's title.

[Olivier Hague]

the eye is symbolism

For the nth time: Gokû's tail.

daizenshuu isnt one hundred correct

Does that necessarily mean it's wrong about that particular point?

toriyama.was done with his series and it seems that he wouldn't have wasted his time doing it.

Ah, well, if "it seems so"... I guess you win!
I could just as well argue that he had a lot of free time to work with the Daizenshû guys precisely because he was done with the manga.

[Synthe]

the eye is symbolism

For the nth time: Gokû's tail.

daizenshuu isnt one hundred correct

Does that necessarily mean it's wrong about that particular point?

toriyama.was done with his series and it seems that he wouldn't have wasted his time doing it.

Ah, well, if "it seems so"... I guess you win!
I could just as well argue that he had a lot of free time to work with the Daizenshû guys precisely because he was done with the manga.

Gokus tail was supposed to mean that he was based on Sun Wokung long before toriyama made his saiyan thing. the saiyan thing was only created to expand his dragonball story.

Tien being a alien... i mean someone would insert bulma being a alien in the book and people would use "supported by the daizenshuu"

I mean would akira toriyama even want to write anything about tien being a alien?

[Victator Supreme]

Well, damn. Moses never told us about that law.

Super secret code for "Damn he got me."

So they're wrong about that because they're unreliable because they're wrong about that?
'Makes sense.

Try putting that in english champ. Its unreliable because it adds/changes a characters history. A data book is there to take things established in the comic/tv series in one place.

1) I can't think of anything "contradictory" about Tenshinhan descending from aliens. But if you can, please tell.
2) It's called an ura settei, and it's not unusual at all. Lots of databooks tell you stuff that isn't in the series itself.

Thats why most data books are worthless.

Er... What do you think they are? Novels?
They're databooks. Guides. Of course they're supposed to provide reliable information

.

No they are fun supplements to comics/tv shows. But they should never be considered canon.

[Olivier Hague]

Gokus tail was supposed to mean that he was based on Sun Wokung long before toriyama made his saiyan thing. the saiyan thing was only created to expand his dragonball story.

Tenshinhan being a alien...

... would be the exact same thing, except it wasn't revealed in the series.

i mean someone would insert bulma being a alien in the book and people would use "supported by the daizenshuu"

Well, who would you be to argue?

I mean would akira toriyama even want to write anything about Tenshinhan being a alien?

Who knows?
(wait... I bet you do, huh?)

Super secret code for "Damn he got me."

I didn't think it was that obscure, but I guess I'll just "translate" for you, then: "anime outranks source books? says who?"

So they're wrong about that because they're unreliable because they're wrong about that?
'Makes sense.

Try putting that in english champ.

What's wrong with my English, here? It's not my fault if your circular logic sounds weird when emphasized.

Its unreliable because it adds/changes a characters history.

1) We didn't know anything about Tenshinhan's ancestry, so it doesn't change anything.
2) The fact that it adds to a character's backstory doesn't make it "unreliable". Sorry, but no. You'll have to try harder than that.

A data book is there to take things established in the comic/tv series in one place.

Or to provide extra details as well. You don't think Toriyama's interviews, for example, are just him summarizing the story, do you?

No they are fun supplements to comics/tv shows. But they should never be considered canon.

"Because I said so!"
Well, thank you.

[Synthe]

And wheres a direct proof that tien is a alien?
I can argue about anything
Who knows if toriyama put that alien part?

i think the three eye tribe was just a tribe of people with three eyes who is strong but most likey not a alien.

Also we don't know anything about the three eyed tribe,most likey it was just put there as a theory for tien's eyes. not written by made by akira toriyama.
I mean if they put pilaf as a member of the batman tribe and pilaf fans if theres any... would state he's a alien by using the daizenshuu.

[Olivier Hague]

And wheres a direct proof that Tenshinhan is a alien?

The Daizenshû and "Dragon Ball Z Sparking!" saying so?

Who knows if toriyama put that alien part?

Who's to say he didn't?

That's the thing: I'm willing to consider the possibility that this is a mistake (even if I think that's pretty damn unlikely, as I explained earlier).
On the other hand, some people are just stating that it is a mistake. When they can't know for sure (unless they're best pals with Toriyama or something). Now, they would have some ground if there was a contradiction in there somewhere, I guess... But is there? Not as far as I can tell.

i think the three eye tribe was just a tribe of people with three eyes who is strong but most likey not a alien

So the part about the "three-eyed tribe" is OK with you, but the alien thing isn't... despite both being first mentioned in the same sentence of the same book? ^^;

[Casual Matt]

For how many pages has this 'discussion' been going in circles.



How about we STOP repeating the same arguments, and try making some NEW points.

[Synthe]

Videogame,theres no proof that toriyama put tien as a alien in the daizenshuu.
look your just denying that theres no proof that toriyama put it there.
Three eyed ancesters doesn't prove that he's a alien.

stop trying to come up with new arguements to piss me off.Muten roshi is right we are going into a circle.

[desirecampbell]

The bottom line is that there's no evidence to support the daizenshuu's claim that Ten is of alien ancestry.

That would be the bottom line if extra evidence was actually needed.
You're just claiming it is. "Because." There's "a rule."

Since when is "evidence" unnecessary?

that means it's as reliable as anything other 'official information' not written by Toriyama.

Again, just because Toriyama doesn't write databooks (not his job, duh), that doesn't mean he doesn't contribute information for them.

And there's no reason to suspect he did contribute information to them. You're assuming that he did.

You're just assuming that particular information doesn't come from him and isn't endorsed by him in any way. When you really don't know.
You've already said that it is just plain wrong. When you really don't know.

You're just assuming that particular information does come from him and is endorsed by him in some way. When you really don't know.
You've already said that it is just plain wrong. When you really don't know.

Oh, and GT was 'endorsed' by Toriyama too.

Yes, that means filler.

Again:

The purpose of anime filler is to buy time.
The purpose of a databook is to provide information.
The purpose of comparing these two is... to try and convince people by a sleight of hand?

ARRGH! You keep ignoring the parts where I explain this to you. Are you actually retarded? Can you read only select passages?

Yes, there are many reasons to not take everything in the daizenshuu at face value. Yes, much of what is in the daizenshuu was not written by Toriyama. Yes, that means it's as reliable as anything other 'official information' not written by Toriyama. Yes, that means filler. Yes, that means that if Ten is an alien, then Yamcha could kick Recoome's ass.

one is an actual episode of he tv series. The other is a source book. Anime out ranks source book.

Well, damn. Moses never told us about that law.

Well, it does make sense. If the daizenshuu are meant to expand on the manga and anime, then they must be credited as being more reliable than the daizenshuu. The daizenshuu are only as good as what it derives information from.

the source book is hardly reliable. Just for pulling stuff like Tenshinhan is an alien out of their ass.

So they're wrong about that because they're unreliable because they're wrong about that?
'Makes sense.

It's a bit of a toss-up. If the daizenshuu are infallible, then Ten's an alien, and the only way to really prove the daizenshuu is infallible is if Ten's an alien. So, without any other concrete evidence we have to conclude that Ten isn't an alien, and therefore the daizenshuu aren't infallible.

If it was reliable they would stick to things that were in the manga or anime (that isn't contradictiory).

1) I can't think of anything "contradictory" about Tenshinhan descending from aliens. But if you can, please tell.
2) It's called an ura settei, and it's not unusual at all. Lots of databooks tell you stuff that isn't in the series itself.

Yeah, and maybe this is one of those - maybe it isn't. We don't know. That's the goddamn point we're trying to explain over and over again.

Gokus tail was supposed to mean that he was based on Sun Wokung long before toriyama made his saiyan thing. the saiyan thing was only created to expand his dragonball story.

Tenshinhan being a alien...

... would be the exact same thing, except it wasn't revealed in the series.

Very good. And because it wasn't revealed in the series, but in a supplemental book written by someone other than the authour, it's (say it with me kids): not canon.

i mean someone would insert bulma being a alien in the book and people would use "supported by the daizenshuu"

Well, who would you be to argue?

A person who understands the idiocy of such a claim, and to back up their claim can use examples from the artist's writing style, show that there's no collaborative evidence to support such a wild statement, and use logical argument to explain why those things are necessary.

People who argue for it, on the other hand, say 'this book said so' and then have no further argument.

I didn't think it was that obscure, but I guess I'll just "translate" for you, then: "anime outranks source books? says who?"

Says my friend. You might not be familiar with him, he's known around here as logic.

So they're wrong about that because they're unreliable because they're wrong about that?
'Makes sense.

Try putting that in english champ.

What's wrong with my English, here? It's not my fault if your circular logic sounds weird when emphasized.

I love how you're criticizing others of circular logic. The irony actually makes me want to kill myself.

A data book is there to take things established in the comic/tv series in one place.

Or to provide extra details as well. You don't think Toriyama's interviews, for example, are just him summarizing the story, do you?

No they are fun supplements to comics/tv shows. But they should never be considered canon.

"Because I said so!"
Well, thank you.

So, they should be considered canon "because Oliver said so"?

And wheres a direct proof that Tenshinhan is a alien?

The Daizenshû and "Dragon Ball Z Sparking!" saying so?

Yeah, a book not written by Toriyama, and a videogame. How bad does your argument have to be before you start saying videogames are canon?

Who knows if toriyama put that alien part?

Who's to say he didn't?

Who said he did? (and 'round and 'round the argument goes)

That's the thing: I'm willing to consider the possibility that this is a mistake (even if I think that's pretty damn unlikely, as I explained earlier).
On the other hand, some people are just stating that it is a mistake. When they can't know for sure (unless they're best pals with Toriyama or something). Now, they would have some ground if there was a contradiction in there somewhere, I guess... But is there? Not as far as I can tell.

You're not considering the possibility of mistake at all. The rest of us are saying 'it might be a mistake - there's no collaborative evidence, and it wasn't written by the authour, so it's probably a mistake'. You're saying it's right, absolutely right, because it was in this book that might have been 'overseen' by Toriyama.

For how many pages has this 'discussion' been going in circles

How many pages is Oliver on?


Hague, please, please stop using the same tierd arguments - if your position is so unshakable you'll be able to defend it better than 'the book said so'.

And I swear to god, if you say 'it's true because a videogame said so' again, I'm declaring you unfit to discuss canon.

[Mr.Piccolo]

Picture A
Picture B

When I look at picture A, I notice Tenshinhan's extra arms have no wrist bands but in picture B, all of the clones do. Does this mean anything..?
(If you want to quote me, don't involve the pictures it takes a longer time to load for others...)

[/topic back on track]

[Synthe]

Different technique...

[Gogeta101]

Yes, I agree. Tenshinhan does not seem to have any human traits in him,
so it is good to know that. I have not deeply thought into that.

[Synthe]

Rather then reading the first page try reading the rest....
I just like to add that the three eye IS symbolism, tien is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erlang_Shen
so the eye is NOT of "Alien" origin.

[Mr.Piccolo]

Different technique...

I know that. I'm saying that "Four-arm" move Tenshinhan does leans more towards an illusion to me while when he splits in four all of his clones are exact copies. Goku and others did a simular four arm technique in DragonBall but it was disclosed as an illusion. During the saiyan arc, Krillin and Piccolo make clones as well.Krillin isn't an alien, that is understood. Mabye the cloning technique isn't of alien origins...

[Olivier Hague]

Since when is "evidence" unnecessary?

You're not asking for evidence, you're asking for extra evidence.
You're asking for some confirmation that the Daizenshû is correct. And just because you don't have confirmation it's correct, that doesn't prove it's wrong, you know. That's one of the oldest fallacies in the book.

there's no reason to suspect he did contribute information to them.

Actually, we know he did contribute information to them.
Did he provide them with that particular information? That's another matter.

You're assuming that he did.

I'm not assuming he did, I'm just saying it's a possibility. A possibility you keep ignoring, conveniently enough.

Oh, and GT was 'endorsed' by Toriyama too.

So was the filler. Remember when you tried that one?

Are you actually retarded?

Be careful: there might be a limit to the number of ad hominems you can use in a debate before it becomes clearly apparent you don't have any valid arguments.

Yes, there are many reasons to not take everything in the daizenshuu at face value. Yes, much of what is in the daizenshuu was not written by Toriyama. Yes, that means it's as reliable as anything other 'official information' not written by Toriyama. Yes, that means filler. Yes, that means that if Ten is an alien, then Yamcha could kick Recoome's ass.

I saw that the first time, thanks. See above about you conveniently ignoring the possibility that Toriyama came up with that bit of background.
And trying to put the Daizenshû and the anime filler on the same "level" still is nothing more than a weak sleight of hand, for the reasons I gave already. But since you insist, here's a freebie:

If the daizenshuu are meant to expand on the manga and anime, then they must be credited as being more reliable than the daizenshuu. The daizenshuu are only as good as what it derives information from.

And yet they do tell us that the Dragon Balls were created by a Nameccian. So I guess they can be better than anime filler after all, huh?

If the daizenshuu are infallible, then Ten's an alien, and the only way to really prove the daizenshuu is infallible is if Ten's an alien.

You don't have to be infallible to be right about something, so there's no point in trying to prove that the Daizenshû are infallible.
You're trying to say that Tenshinhan can't be an alien unless the Daizenshû are infallible, and that's a fallacy. Careful with those.

without any other concrete evidence we have to conclude that Ten isn't an alien, and therefore the daizenshuu aren't infallible.

Dude, I just told you to be careful, aren't you listening?!

Yeah, and maybe this is one of those - maybe it isn't. We don't know. That's the goddamn point we're trying to explain over and over again.

Actually, that's the point I am trying to explain over and over again.
You were just saying that the Daizenshû were wrong.
It was pretty swell to see that I had convinced you about that, but the part where you tried to turn the tables on me kinda made me sad. That wasn't very nice, mister.

because it wasn't revealed in the series, but in a supplemental book written by someone other than the authour, it's (say it with me kids): not canon.

We've been there already...

If you go by the strictest definition of "canon" possible, Toriyama didn't type the dialogues of the manga himself. Does that mean they're not canon? By the same token, what if he provided the information about Tenshinhan's ancestry but didn't type it himself for the Daizenshû? Does it really matter who typed the damn thing?

And if you go with a wider definition of "canon", who's to say "how canon" the Daizenshû are exactly?
Wait, that was a stupid question. You are. Naturally. You and your absolutely-unbiased canon levels.

i mean someone would insert bulma being a alien in the book and people would use "supported by the daizenshuu"

Well, who would you be to argue?

A person who understands the idiocy of such a claim, and to back up their claim can use examples from the artist's writing style

Dude. Please don't play the "I can think just like Toriyama!" card. It's just not worth it.
Especially for something like this. Yeah, I'm sure he'd never lower himself to forgotten alien ancestries.

People who argue for it, on the other hand, say 'this book said so' and then have no further argument.

Well, that's one argument, at least.

"anime outranks source books? says who?"

Says my friend. You might not be familiar with him, he's known around here as logic.

... aaaaand you just stop there. No further explanations, nothing.
Brilliant.

Here's a bit of "logic" for you: I could argue that the Daizenshû were done by the Shûeisha, i.e. the guys who also released the original manga, whereas the anime was done by another company altogether. Oooooh! Surely, that must mean that the Daizenshû are closer to the source than the anime is!
Well, that was easy.

By the way, your friend Logic says hello and wonders what you've been up to lately.

I love how you're criticizing others of circular logic.

Thank you, but I really can't take any credit for it: you people make it so easy.

So, they should be considered canon "because Oliver said so"?

Of course not. If you saw someone telling people what the "Dragon Ball canon" was exactly, that was you, not me.

Yeah, a book not written by Toriyama

But supervised by him.
And that would be a databook, i.e. a book that's supposed to provide reliable information. That's... well... the whole point of the thing, really.

and a videogame. How bad does your argument have to be before you start saying videogames are canon?

Information from a video game.
That would admittedly be a dubious source if said game had an original story where that new bit of background had some significance, but that's not the case, now, is it?

Who knows if toriyama put that alien part?

Who's to say he didn't?

Who said he did? (and 'round and 'round the argument goes)

If you know you're going nowhere, why do it at all?
Your old acquaintance Logic could tell you that I wasn't playing your fun little "yes, it is! / no, it's not!" game, but actually trying to advance the discussion by pointing out the fallacy you keep throwing around. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

You're not considering the possibility of mistake at all.

I did, actually.

The rest of us are saying 'it might be a mistake - there's no collaborative evidence, and it wasn't written by the authour, so it's probably a mistake'.

Except you weren't saying "it might be a mistake" or "it probably is".
And now I'm sad again. Damn you.

You're saying it's right, absolutely right

Well, feel free to quote me saying that.

I swear to god, if you say 'it's true because a videogame said so' again, I'm declaring you unfit to discuss canon.

Now that would just be cruel.

I just like to add that the three eye IS symbolism, Tenshinhan is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erlang_Shen
so the eye is NOT of "Alien" origin.

Well, Wikipedia certainly is more canon than the Daizenshû, so you win the debate!

[Drunken Master]

Different technique...

I know that. I'm saying that "Four-arm" move Tenshinhan does leans more towards an illusion to me while when he splits in four all of his clones are exact copies. Goku and others did a simular four arm technique in DragonBall but it was disclosed as an illusion. During the saiyan arc, Krillin and Piccolo make clones as well.Krillin isn't an alien, that is understood. Mabye the cloning technique isn't of alien origins...

This is the only thing I want to answer. Phew, too many quotes.

Well, I WAS gonna scan it, but this is easier.

Goku - "Wow...It's not an illusion move! They're all real!!"
Tenshinhan - "Heh heh heh...That's right. This is the Shishin "Four bodies" move!!! There are no moves that can escape 12 eyes!!!"

As for Kuririn and Piccolo, they do a split against Nappa in a filler scene, but they both only make three copies. Cell splits into four bodies against Goku, and Tenshinhan says that it comes from his cells, which of course is filler, since Cell doesn't have any of Tenshinhan cells. Comparing filler to the Daizenshuu isn't that great of an idea, ya see? (To the general public)

[Anonymous Friend]

One quick thing: If Tenshinhan was an alien (not saying that he and not saying that he isn't) wouldn't that have made for one very interesting saga? His people could have came to earth or Goku and the gang could have gone to thier planet.

[Victator Supreme]

So a source book has more credibility than the actual source?