The Validity of the Daizenshuu

[Mr.Piccolo]

As many of you know, there have been a lot of threads that went down the drain as soon as daizenshuu was thrown into the equation. The members of this forum have mixed views on these volumes- some hold it in high regard while others put it along the lines of filler. Instead of ruining good threads, why don't you just post what your thoughts are on the daizenshuu.
...

I think they are a great source of information but they weren't written by Toriyama and other sources of information that aren't written by Toriyama are viewed as either filler and/or works of Toei. Don't get me wrong, from what I understand the books hold a lot of valid information, but mainly speaking towards the Tenshinhan alien comment, a lot doesn't add up.

So again, if you have comments about the daizenshuu itself, why don't you just type it here so people can actually contribute to progressive conversations.

[Great Saiyaman]

The Daizenshuu should never be taken as a real fact. They are just fun reference guides. Remember, their PL's have been known to directly contradict the Manga.

[Gouki*]

because it wasn't revealed in the series, but in a supplemental book written by someone other than the authour, it's (say it with me kids): not canon.

We've been there already...

If you go by the strictest definition of "canon" possible, Toriyama didn't type the dialogues of the manga himself. Does that mean they're not canon? By the same token, what if he provided the information about Tenshinhan's ancestry but didn't type it himself for the Daizenshû? Does it really matter who typed the damn thing?

Toriyama didn't write the dialogue for the manga? Well. There you go. I learn something new everyday. Otherwise, you're interpreting it wrong. Because Toriyama wrote the dialogue. He didn't write the guidebooks. He may have rubber-stamped them, and they may have been derived from his works, but as he didn't write them (whether or not he wrote them down, and then asked someone else to type it up, or typed it up himself), they are indeed of a lesser canon level than the manga and the anime.

G-canon is "George"-absolute canon; the six Episodes and anything coming directly from George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources (it's possible that movie novelizations contradict the movies or other EU sources) is C-canon (see below).

When the matter of changes between movie versions is brought up, the remastered editions are deemed superior to the theatrical ones, since they correct mistakes and 'improve' consistency between the two trilogies. They also express Lucas' "original" intention (although not plausible at the time of their filming) and also final word.

C-canon is "common" or pretty much everything in the Expanded Universe: Star Wars books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay may not be (they also offer non-canonical options to the player, like choosing female gender to a canonically male character). C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon. (This includes: the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters, Salporin, and Action VI Transports.)

S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories. Many of the materials labelled as S-canon are older sources which may or may not fit within the continuity, but which have not been fully evaluated prior to inclusion in the Holocron database.

N-canon is "non-canon." What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.

These are the levels of Star Wars canon. I figured you might like to read them (now, I'm not anyones side, except the "Tenshinhan = awesome" side), maybe just try and come to some kind of agreement. I know it won't give you an exact idea, as it's a very different structure to Dragon Ball, but it's the same basic principal. You all must be dizzy from those circles by now.

[Olivier Hague]

why don't you just post what your thoughts are on the daizenshuu.

And a bonus question: have you actually read them?
'Just thought it might be relevant...

Toriyama didn't write the dialogue for the manga?

He didn't type it.

as he didn't write them (whether or not he wrote them down, and then asked someone else to type it up, or typed it up himself), they are indeed of a lesser canon level than the manga and the anime.

Well, it's not like he made the anime either...

[Gouki*]

Toriyama didn't write the dialogue for the manga?

He didn't type it.

No. But he wrote it. As far as we are all concerned they are his words. My god. Why didn't you quote the rest of my sentence. Do I need to put smilies so you understand that I was joking? That I purposefully took it that way.

You're using the word type to twist things around.

as he didn't write them (whether or not he wrote them down, and then asked someone else to type it up, or typed it up himself), they are indeed of a lesser canon level than the manga and the anime.

Well, it's not like he made the anime either...

You're right. He didn't make the anime. However, to say the Daizenshuu is more... worthy than the anime is just plain wrong. The anime does outrank it, despite your apparent Daizenshuu obsession.

[Olivier Hague]

He didn't type it.

No. But he wrote it.

Of course, he did. I was simply pointing out how absurd things can become when you're too technical.

My point was that you can't just say "he didn't write the Daizenshû so you can just forget about it". The Daizenshû are databooks. They provide data. And it doesn't really matter who actually typed the data. What matters is who provided it.


Here's another way to put it:

You consider that the dialogues of the manga are Toriyama's words. So do I. Why? Because whoever typed them in the end didn't change the original dialogues by Toriyama (not as far as I know, anyway? ^^;).
If the guy were to paraphrase the dialogues, we could end up with weird stuff like Gokû speaking normally, Gotenks not sounding like a brat, etc. The dialogues would be altered, and we could complain about them not being Toriyama's words.

What about the Daizenshû though?
Toriyama didn't write them (not his job). But does that necessarily mean that we should go "OMG, not Toriyama's true words!", just like above?
The Daizenshû aren't novels. They don't provide dialogue. They provide data. And data can be paraphrased without turning into pumpkins. So that changes quite a few things.

'See what I mean?

to say the Daizenshuu is more... worthy than the anime is just plain wrong.

Don't forget about the many inconsistencies created by anime filler. The Daizenshû are definitely more reliable than the anime, in cases like that. So things aren't that clear-cut.

[Deus ex Machina]

I think the Daizenshuu's are fine for the most part; so long as they're not contradicting facts presented in the manga or anime (or itself for that matter) then it's safe to take it as fact.

This whole Tenshinhan thing though, I have no idea what they were thinking. It's not presented in the manga, the idea is not even remotely suggested in the anime/fillers/movies. With no other remotely credible source to point to, I'm going to say that the Daizenshuu doesn't get the last say on Tenshinhan's heritage.

And if it even matters, I haven't read a single Daizenshuu before. I can't read a single word of Japanese.

The whole issue of canon gets pretty confusing sometimes, since unlike Star Wars, DragonBall fans don't have a exact contuinity to go by. Maybe we should try making one of our own, like so:

T Canon - Toriyama's work. Everything and anything created by the original creator (and assistants) pertaining to DragonBall manga. This would also include any "facts" stated by Toriyama himself on anything not present in his work (if any even existed.)

A Canon - Anime series. Anything that appeared in the television series that adds to the original manga, without contradicting it. Including the Bardock and Future of Trunks television specials, and the Daizenshuu.

S Canon - Silly stuff that exists as part of the franchise, but can't be cited for relevant information. This would include all of the movies, video games, various regional dubs, gag mangas (Such a Neko Majin Z), and DragonBall GT.

[VegettoEX]

One of my biggest gripes is that the people who disregard anything having to do with the daizenshuu (regardless of what's actually being discussed) are generally people that don't own a single one.

Just saying.

[Thanos6]

That sounds sensible to me...pretty much my own position.

[kinoko]

The Daizenshuu certainly provide a wealth of information about the Dragon Ball world and should not be completely disregarded. I understand Mr. Vegetto EX's sentiment.

And up until very recently, I've always thought the Daizenshuu were written by Toriyama (or, at least, that he had a big hand in their development.) That he did not dumps casts a question mark over what is canon, I believe.

So, I guess I belive that the Daizenshuu are a not-always-canon source of information, but certainly not to be taken as complete crap.

(And I like Deus ex Machina's suggested hierarchy of canon... ^^)

[Godo]

Why does it feel like everytime I say the Daizenshuu isn't canon, I get the same response you get when you bash someones religion?

Personally I think that the Daizenshuu is overrated.

I'll paste some of my posts from previous threads to show where I stand.

Why the Daizenshuu was made:

I believe that the Daizenshuu is made for making profit, for milking out the series.

The Daizenshuu and filler matter, compared:

And come on guys, filler couldn't just be made for the show to keep in track with the books. I think that it was made for making more money. Overall you make more money on a 20 episodes show than on a 10 episodes show because of that the channels pay for the rights to show the programme!

Daizenshuu/fan connection:

I don't think that they thought "Well, lets make the Daizenshuu to make the fans satisfied!".

Money. And people pay for that shit, so they make it!

Toriyama and the Daizenshuu:

Plus, the fact that I don't accept the Daizenshuu is because of that Toriyama isn't the author. If he had written the Daizenshuu, I would have accepted it.

Factual errors/mistakes:

It's like, I can give someone permission to write a sequel to one of my books, and I can bless the outcome, but still there may be some mistakes (factual errors).

______________________________

One of my biggest gripes is that the people who disregard anything having to do with the daizenshuu (regardless of what's actually being discussed) are generally people that don't own a single one.

Just saying.

Well lets say, there is this guy Tommy. Tommy is a nice fella and I don't know him that well, but I have heard some things about him. I tell that I'm heterosexual to Tommy, but lateron, people tell me that Tommy says he thinks I'm gay.
So me and my firends discuss if I really am gay, or if Tommy is just talking bull.

My god. Why didn't you quote the rest of my sentence.

Well ain't that a pain in the ass when people do that?
(Not being sarcastic).

And please folks. Answer to my whole post, don't split post.
I don't forbid you to do that, but if you do, I can't read it.

[MartianOddity]

I don't disregard things written in the Daizenshuu just like that. I just like to think myself as I consider the stories to be made to leave a lot to one's fantasy to determine.
I don't know, but there are some errors in it that make me not wanting to keep it as a ground for my statements. That plus the fact that I don't know a single word of japanese.
Since only a few can read and use it in their arguments among english speaking users, I feel like there isn't much of a point using it for some reason. I mean, to some people it seems as if what's written in it isn't discussable, the other debators don't have a real chance to discuss the written text. By all means, the one reading it might have misinterpreted the text, with little or no possibilities to be corrected.

[Folken-sama]

Remember, their PL's have been known to directly contradict the Manga.

Well, no. Except for one typo about Radditz (which was even corrected in another part of the book).

[desirecampbell]

*StarWars canon*.

I came up with this months ago, and just changed a few things (like adding an entry for the daizenshuu). I think it' pretty good:

The best way to think about 'canon' in DragonBall is to use a tiered structure (like Star Wars canon).

There are a series of 'levels'. Each level supersedes any information from a lower level that contradicts it. For instance, in the manga (level 1) Super Saiyan hair is a deep gold colour, but in the anime (level 4) it is nearly white - the manga's version is taken as "more canonical".

1. Kanzenban manga - re-edited, and fixed - better than original - by Toriyama himself. For example, Enma's sign says "welcome", not "wellcome".

2. tankobon manga - original work, but contains errors and omissions corrected in the Kanzenban.

3. Author notes - anything written by Toriyama about the series that is not included directly in the manga. For example, his notes about Saiyan hair colour.

4. Original Japanese Anime, based on manga - DragonBall, DragonBall Z, Trunks special - disregarding filler. This includes instances that are derived directly from the manga, but are changed somehow (like the SSj hair colour, Goku's gi colour, when Pilaf shows up, and the friggin' week that was the Freeza fight) - but it doesn't include instances of filler that are entirely new (see below).

5. Original Japanese Anime not based on manga, produced by Toei for the series - DB/DBZ filler, DragonBall GT, Bardock special, GT Special. This includes any animation made for the series, but not based on any direct manga counterpart. Like the Garlic Jr saga, the driving episode, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Krillin helping out at the Cell games. These events are meant to have happened in the series, but sometimes contradict higher levels of canon.

6. Original Japanese DB/DBZ movies - produced by Toei, but not meant to 'fit' into the series' storyline. These can show the mechanics of the dragonworld in more detail, but actual events should necessarily be taken as having happened.

7. Official guidebooks, databooks, artbooks, and other official merchandise - these products are based off of the manga, the anime (including filler), and the movies so they cannot be taken as as high a level of canon as what they are derived from.

8. Original Video Animation for video games, game shows, fire safety videos, commercials, etc. - produced by Toei, but absolutely not supposed to represent the events of the story in any way.

9. Games (video, card, board, etc) - nothing taken from any game-based mechanics or story should be taken as literal to the story proper.


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You'll notice that I specifically mentioned the original Japanese animation there, and no other country's dubs. Replications of the original animation and script should never be taken as canon. The only time a dub is ever taken as any kind of authority is when it is equivalent to the original animation.

Like how the anime can't be taken as more reliable than the manga, the daizenshuu cannot be taken as more reliable than what it's derived from. Since the daizenshuu (as a whole), as well as other merchandise, are derived from the manga, the anime, and the movies, the books must be taken as no more reliable than the least reliable source. Certainly, parts of the daizenshuu can be entirely accurate, but these passages are accurate because they agree with higher levels of canon, not because it's written in the daizenshuu.

[Conan the SSJ]

I'll say this once so I'll be done with it. This is how I, from MY point of view, see the anime canon; a separate universe from that of the manga canon. Please, no arguments or debating, I'm in no way saying this is how everyone should view it, I'm just pointing out this is how I view it.

Bardock Special.
Original DragonBall Series -- Episodes 1 - 153.
Dead Zone Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 1 - 117.
Trunks Special.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 118 - 125 (till the point where the screen freezes as the 3 years quickly pass by).
Cooler's Revenge Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 125 (from the last minute of this episode when the 3 years have passed) - 194.
Bojack Unbound Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 195 - 288.
Wrath of the Dragon Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 289 - 291.
DragonBall GT Series -- Episodes 1 - 64 (right up to the final 8 minute sequence, culminating with Goku departing with Shenlong).
Goku Jr. Special.
DragonBall GT Series -- Episode 64 (The final 8 minutes, 100 years later).

Regarding my feelings with the Daizenshuu, I feel that they help support the issues that movies 1 and 5 should be in "anime canon" along with movies 9 and 13, but really that's about all I count on when it comes to my point of view with the Daizenshuu. When I wanna say why I count GT in the anime canon, I simply say "Hey, Toriyama had some involvement (albeit in character designing) and supports the series". I'm pissed as it is at the "GT Perfect Files", as it's basically the main reason for everyone that doesn't count GT in the anime to do so; because it states "GT takes place 5 years after Z", which brings up so much BS not worth discussing here.

As you all know, I'm an anime purist. So all things considered, I'm pretty biased at this point. I guess when it comes to manga canon, I'd place the Bardock special at the very start, then the Dr. Slump manga, and the entire run of the DragonBall (and Z in Viz's latter translated portion) manga. No in-betweens, no afters, this is the way I view the manga canon/universe...very different from how I view the anime adaptation.

What you have all just seen is my point of view, seeing as I've admitted as such, you've no reason to make a big arguing fuss to try and convert me to another way of thinking regarding how the series should look.

[Olivier Hague]

Personally I think that the Daizenshuu is overrated.

And now for the bonus question: have you read at least one of them?

I came up with this months ago, and just changed a few things (like adding an entry for the daizenshuu). I think it' pretty good

It's pretty arbitrary (subjective?) in places...
Also, it puts the Garlic Jr. filler on a higher level than the movie it follows, and the guides make a lot more sense than some of the anime filler...

Since the daizenshuu (as a whole), as well as other merchandise, are derived from the manga, the anime, and the movies, the books must be taken as no more reliable than the least reliable source.

You're oversimplifying things, here. The Daizenshû are separate books. For example, several of them are derived from the manga only, not the anime, so there's no particular reason they should be below the anime.

[Godo]

Personally I think that the Daizenshuu is overrated.

And now for the bonus question: have you read at least one of them?

Once again you have proven that you haven't read a shit of my posts.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

One of my biggest gripes is that the people who disregard anything having to do with the daizenshuu (regardless of what's actually being discussed) are generally people that don't own a single one.

And now for the bonus question: have you read at least one of them?

How is that at all relevant? You don't have to have read that crappy book by that mother and son team to know that it's crappy, and absolutely filled with false information (not that I'm saying the Daizenshuu shares either of these traits).

[Deus ex Machina]

Desirecampbell's hierarchy is a little more complete than my own, but I would make the following changes:

1. DragonBall GT should be moved down to 6th level; while the 5th level was intended for anime re-telling the manga, GT is entirely Toei's and independant. It's much more closely related to filler material, still official in some sense but often riddled with inconsistencies just like filler.

2. I would just merge levels 8 and 9 together, since neither of them are more "official" than the other.

3. The Bardock television special should be moved up to level 4th canon atleast, if not 1st. We know that Toriyama re-designed Bardock and all of his crew personally, and even gave his blessings on the different Saiyan fodder designs. And since Bardock was adopted into the manga (both original and Kanzenban) he's not a filler character anymore. (Like Aayla Secura going from S level to G level in Star Wars Attack of the Clones)

But having said that, I realize that DragonBall can never trully be be made as consistant as the Star Wars universe. The big difference being that the show changed directions so many times, by an author who not only contradicted the anime but sometimes himself as well. And worse yet, he simply isn't as interested in keeping the continuity as smooth and possible as Star Wars. Toriyama doesn't have a team of writers and fact checkers to make sure everything is correct, and retcon as necessary.

For example, I recognise the Kanzenban as being the highest form of canon; it has a small number of additions and alterations that contradict, and therefore super-cede it's previous version. But then Toriyama also makes a number of mistakes an over sights that most people aren't eager to accept (re-coloring Dodoria yellow when he's always been purple, then forgetting that he always colored Bulma's hair purple and not blue.)

So while we can have a general consensus on what's more "official" and what has a higher canon than another, finer details are better decided on a case by case basis.

The history of Trunks is another sticky issue of continuity for me. The television special clearly contradicts the manga version on a number of facts (how long Trunks had been a Super Saiyan, whether 17 killed Gohan or 17 and 18 together, and whether or not it was raining when Trunks discovered Gohan's body.) But I'm not so quick to dismiss the television special as filler, just because it was different. I'm contridicting myself by doing so, but...I just really liked the anime version better.

[Olivier Hague]

Once again you have proven that you haven't read a shit of my posts.

How so?

How is that at all relevant?

Er... Let's see... If you're going to give your opinion about a book, reading it first might help a bit?

You don't have to have read that crappy book by that mother and son team to know that it's crappy, and absolutely filled with false information

Why? Just because it was written by a mother and a son? Or because you've read crappy excerpts?