Trunks Timeline Question

[Steven Perry]

Oh fuck. Trust me man, just give up. This shit is too hard. We went over this some time ago, and the conclusion was that there are no rules to time travel.

It wasn't that hard...

I did something ages ago, but don't ask me questions on it- I can't remember.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4034 ... 2ixzd8.jpg

I haven't read the rest of the topic, so whoops if this isn't appropriate.

[Great Saiyaman]

It's pretty cool, but to be honest I don't believe that when you aim for a new timeline, new branches are made. I think that when Trunks came back in time & fought Freeza & then he came back again to help against the Androids, they were both the EXACT same timeline. Because since Timeline's don't effect eachother, there's no way any other timeline except the one he fought Freeza in can have his information, warning, & heart antidote. I believe what you said about how timeline's are stored in the memory bank of the TM, which is why I believe he was able to go back to that exact timeline. If he were to wind up going to a different one, I don't see how it's possible that they already got the warning in that timelime. It wouldn't make sense. Ya know?

[SkylarEC]

Look at things differently. Since Trunks is the only thing that connects these time lines, we will look at things from his point of view. That also, incidently, becomes the easiest way to look at things.

Firstly, let us consider Trunks' original timeline to be the Original Timeline, due to time travel not being around to change anything.

1) Gohan is killed by the Androids that killed everyone he knew three years before.
2) Trunks goes back in time to warn Goku, et al, then goes back to his future.
3) Trunks comes back to help everyone fight the Androids.
4) Trunks goes back to his time and Kills the Androids.
5) Trunks is killed by Cell.
6) Cell jumps to Our Timeline. Why? There is a very simple explanation below.

*Important, there have already been three jumps into the past, leaving plenty of opportunity for things to change the timeline we know from the Original Timeline..

7) Trunks learns about Cell and figures out his plan.
Everything we've come to know as the part of the Dragon Ball story happens.
9) Trunks jumpsback to the Original Timeline.
10) Trunks kills the Androids.
11) Trunks kills Cell.
12) The Altered Timeline appears.

There, in twelve steps is the story, in a Trunkscentric Dragon Universe. If the story were about him, that is the order the episodes would be in.



Now, we'll look at the Original Timeline as being supported by the timeline to which Trunks jumps back the first two times. By pure definition, that makes the second timeline nothing more than an ancillary time line, and that is why I am calling it the Ancillary Timeline. Nothing before Cell is outside of these two timelines.

Now, in Cell's pesonal timeline, we know the events of the Original Timeline and the Ancillary Timeline have already taken place. There is no other way that Trunks could have defeated the Androids. When Cell jumps back, he goes to another time line time line that hasn't happened yet, a secondary auxillary time line. Which, coincidently, is the time line we all know and love, Our Timeline.

After the Cell ordeal is over, Trunks goes back to the Original Timeline and the major events stay pretty much the same. Right up to the point where Cell plots to go back in time. At that point, Trunks destroys Cell. However, the events of Original Timeline's Trunks were a part of Cell's Past, and Cell was a part of Our Timeline's Future Trunks past. Cell's failure to kill Trunks forces the existence of another time line, and is the only altered future for the Original Timeline. That's why this one is called the Altered Timeline.

And now finally, we will take what we know, and remove the principality of Trunks from the equation. Placing the timelines parallel to each other we can see:

1) There is the Original Time that is supported by the Ancillary Timeline.
2) The Original Timeline Branches into the Altered Timeline.
3) The Altered Timeline could not exist without the prior existence of Our Timeline.


To sum up, it can be argued that there is only one main time line that with the help of the events of two supporting time lines, branches into a second time line. Or, it can be argued that there are four seperate interlinked time lines.

Both answers are correct since they are supported by evidence, and can not be proven wrong. And as as silly as that last sentence sounds, that is the foundation that EVERY scientific principal that we know is based on.


I'll be glad to answer any question, or clear up any point. But remember, although I think this makes the most sense, and it fits within all boundries that define scientific knowledge, it is only my theory. I am not claiming this to be set in stone fact.

[SkylarEC]

Oh my bad, that didn't answer the question at all. My response to that is, "I don't know."

[Great Saiyaman]

Well, I'm not saying that you're wrong because like you said, no one knows for sure, but thereare points where I disagree with what you're saying.

Now, in Cell's pesonal timeline, we know the events of the Original Timeline and the Ancillary Timeline have already taken place. There is no other way that Trunks could have defeated the Androids. When Cell jumps back, he goes to another time line time line that hasn't happened yet, a secondary auxillary time line. Which, coincidently, is the time line we all know and love, Our Timeline.

That is acctually incorrect right there because in Cell's Timeline, the events could not have played out exactly as it did in the Present timeline or else Trunks would be super powerful & easily be able to defeat someone like 1'st form Cell. Something different happened that time when Trunks went back to the past, I believe it went something like this

-Trunks goes back & sees 19's head, he's all confused.

-16, 17, & 18 are awakened (or maybe just 17 & 18)

-Vegeta gets his butt kicked.

-They discovers Gero's bastement somehow....maybe looking for clues.

-They make a remote, kill 17 & 18...& 16 somehow if he was awakened.

-Trunks goes back with the remote & kills the Droids.

Now then, with Trunks timeline, I relize not all things add up proporly, but his ability to travel back & forth to the exact same timeline in the past & his ability ti keep going back to his exact same timeline makes it so that his Future timeline is the dominant Future timeline, Cell's timeline is IMO the effect of Trunks time traveling & something screws up. Sorry my theory isn't as fancy as yours, my brain is kind of fried from explaining my theories in this topic already I've run out of the more confusing in-depth explanations for now. But that's my theory in short.

Even more so abridged...I believe only 3 Timeline's exist.....the main Timeline where we watch DBZ from, Trunks timeline, & the Timeline that Cell came from.

[Godo]

Your theories gets my brain whipped and disordered like cream! Stop it!
Let's keep it at Trunks being a cool guy from future, than gets strong enough to kill the androids in his own future.

[desirecampbell]

This thread has now begun it's slow spiral into hell. But as long as I'm here, I might as well pave the road with good intentions.

Great Saiyaman: The timejumps have to create new timelines. We know new timelines are created by Trunks' time traveling, and to create any kind of theory we have to assume that whatever happens durring a timejump happens every time. So, every timejump must create a new timeline.

And SkylarEC, we know that timejumps create new timelines instead of changing the future, so for there has to be two Trunkses (Trunksi? or is it just Trunks, like 'deer'? Anyway...). One who does the whole timetraveling thing but gets killed by Cell, and then Cell goes back in time and burries himeself in the ground. That new timeline (with cell in the ground) goes along exactly (or at least, very nearly) the same as the 'original' timeline. The only difference is when Trunks goes back in Time the second time, Cell is there. Because of that, he is forced to train in the RoSaT and get strong enough to defeat Cell in his own time.

This is probably going to be very confussing, but until I make another video tommorow this'll have to do.


A. Trunks goes back to warn the gang, and defeat Mecha-Freeza.
B. Trunks goes home.
C. Trunks goes back again to help the gang fight the androids.
D. Trunks goes home again, and defeats the androids.
E. Cell kills Trunks and takes his timemachine back in time.
F. Trunks goes back to warn the gang, and defeat Mecha-Freeza.
G. Trunks goes home.
H. Trunks goes back again to help the gang fight the androids, Cell appears and basically does nothing to help at all.
I. Trunks goes home again, and deeats the androids.
J. Trunks kills Cell and goes back in time to tell the gang he defeated the androids.

It might not be very clear, but the timeline created by 'Trunks H' is the one we see in the series.


The timemachine seems to only travel between whatever timeline it was just in. This could be attributed to timetravel, instead of assuming Bulma invented some such control.

[Great Saiyaman]

OK, I have a question...Why? Where are you getting all these different timelines from, I don't understand what you are basing this off of. I only see proof of 3 timelines. But since you said you're gonna make a Video tomorrow, you don't have to bother typing it out here now if you don't want to, I can wait till tomorrow, maybe hearing it explained in "moving-form speak" as Mike would say can help me understand yourr theory.

[Mr.Piccolo]

Wow! I was away from this thread for about a day and there was so much improvement! Good Job!

[Terra-jin]

This is certainly an interesting topic. With all those different theories on time travel, it might be a good idea to look at Dragonball and how it handles time travel.

Traveling back through time does not change the past; rather, it creates a new timeline in which the changes occur, while the old timeline still exists.

When Trunks travels to the past for the second time (to help Goku and the others with the battle), he enters in the already changed past, instead of a 'fresh' past'.

This means that he did not create a new timeline during that jump. This is because he arrived after he left the last time. When Cell travels to before Trunks first arrived, he changed Trunks' history in the past. This creates a third timeline, because there now is a timeline in which Cell didn't arrive and one where he did arrive.
There are now two timelines in the past, both with Trunks in them. These two Trunks's could not have come from one future, so Cell's jump actually created a new future, as well as a new past. This adds to a total of four timelines.

The most important part of my theory is as follows: when a jump is made in which the traveller arrives after he last departed, he does not create a new timeline. Only when he infracts a previous jump by arriving before the last depart, does he create a new timeline.
When you create a new timeline, the old timeline continues to exist.

EDIT: In Steven Perry's and DesireCampbell's theories, a new timeline is created everytime a jump to the past is performed. After Trunks' first two jumps, there would be a past in which Trunks appears once and one in which he appears twice. Trunks' first jump occurs in both timelines.
This is strange, because these two Trunks's could not both have come from one timeline, this situation is impossible. Instead, Trunks' second jump occured in the same timeline as the first jump.

Greetings, Terra-jin.

[Great Saiyaman]

This means that he did not create a new timeline during that jump. This is because he arrived after he left the last time. When Cell travels to before Trunks first arrived, he changed Trunks' history in the past. This creates a third timeline, because there now is a timeline in which Cell didn't arrive and one where he did arrive.
There are now two timelines in the past, both with Trunks in them. These two Trunks's could not have come from one future, so Cell's jump actually created a new future, as well as a new past. This adds to a total of four timelines.

I was understanding what you were saying until you said there's a 4'th timeline...can you please elaborate?

[Terra-jin]

Sure, no problem.

In the second and third timelines Trunks is present. These two Trunks's could not have come from the same timeline, so there is a fourth timeline (the second future in which Trunks kills Cell instead of the other way around).
In other words, when Cell travels back he changes the past, but also the future, through affecting Trunks in the past. Two timelines are changed at that point which of course adds two new timelines.

[desirecampbell]

Heh, you think four timelines is tough? I've got eleven.

Video timeline's done. Sparse, but done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGuHzVkLlno

Might take a while for YouTube to finish uploading it. If it says the video's not there, try back later. I'll add a note here when I notice it's working.

-edit- It's up. And I sound a little like a mastercard commercial

[Great Saiyaman]

Sure, no problem.

In the second and third timelines Trunks is present. These two Trunks's could not have come from the same timeline, so there is a fourth timeline (the second future in which Trunks kills Cell instead of the other way around).
In other words, when Cell travels back he changes the past, but also the future, through affecting Trunks in the past. Two timelines are changed at that point which of course adds two new timelines.

Hmmmm, well I don't think that counts as a serparate timeline though, I mean even though the timeline that Trunks came from has Cell being beaten, it's still the same timeline, he just changes what is meant to happen.

Desire- I am about to watch it.

Edit: Sorry it took so long to edit this post, I had to go when I finished watching the video. Anyway, well you are not "wrong", I mean there is no right & wrong with this topic. Only what each induvidual fan sees as correct & believable.

But I have to say, I understand your theory much better now however I think it'd a bit odd. By your theory that means that there are like 3 or 4 Future timelines that Trunks never returns to because of the splits. So...what, Bulma is just waiting there for the rest of her life for Trunks to never return? That's kind of sad. To be honest, I don't think Toriyama would draw it that was if he were to elaborate. Toriyama is all about simplicity which is why I only see 3 timelines, the one Trunks came from...the main timeline, & the one that Cell came from. IMO the Time Machine recognizes differet dimensions & goes back to each exact dimenion.

[desirecampbell]

Yeah, there's, like, 5 Bulmas waiting for her son to come back. It's kind of depressing, so we don't talk about it.

The thing is, if timejumps don't effect the timeline they came from, or the one they land in, but start a new one then, firstly, timejumps have to do that everytime. To say it does sometimes and not others means the whole theory is wonky and there's no consistency to the whole universe. Secondly, because of the first point, we must have two Trunks.

And the timemachine can't just 'recognise' which dimension the user wants to go to, and in fact, such a thing isn't necessary. We only see timejumps between the last occupied timestream. You timejump to some point in your own past, create a new timeline, go back to your last timeline, creating a new one... repeat as necessary. We can attribute that to 'timetravel' instead of relying on Bulma to have designed something for it.

[Great Saiyaman]

Yes....it is...poor Bulma. Glad I don't believe that theory

Here's the way I see it.....when Trunks goes back in time he now splits his timeline & the Present world into 2 Timelines. One where Trunks doesn't go back (his) & the one where he does come back. Now there is only 2 Timelines. Then you factor Cell in & you have 3. I believe his Time Machine recognizes different dimensions because of 1 single fact....only the Timeline that he went back to knows to Trunks is & got the warning, therefore since Trunks went back to that timeline who recognises him & got the warning means there aren't 11 Timelines.

[Terra-jin]

Hmmmm, well I don't think that counts as a serparate timeline though, I mean even though the timeline that Trunks came from has Cell being beaten, it's still the same timeline, he just changes what is meant to happen.

Yeah, but changing things in DB means creating a new timeline. When Trunks changes his future, the old future in which Cell killed him still exists.

The thing is, if timejumps don't effect the timeline they came from, or the one they land in, but start a new one then, firstly, timejumps have to do that everytime. To say it does sometimes and not others means the whole theory is wonky and there's no consistency to the whole universe.

Hmm, I don't agree with this, because you'd have a situation where there are two pasts and only one future. If you look at timelines as separate dimensions (which is the way I think DB time-travel works), the Trunks' from the two pasts could not both have come from the same future, couldn't they?

To elaborate on this point: in the two pasts, you'd both have a Trunks appearing to warn Goku, but in only one he returns to help the fight. This can't be, because the two Trunks' are perfectly equal. This means that both of them would return to their respective future, and both would come back to help fight the androids. In this situation we have two completely independent sets of past and future timelines. If they are the same, they can be thought of as one, because there was only one future to begin with (before any jump was made).

If timelines are like dimensions, you'd always have to have just as many pasts and futures. Also, each entry or exit in a timeline has to be connected uniquely.
The question really is: do the timelines indeed work like dimensions? I think they do, because Trunks himself states that changes in one timeline do not "overwrite" the other.

[desirecampbell]

Huh? You missed something. There's more "futures" than pasts, that's the whole point. You create a new timeline that buds off where you timejumped to. Now you have two timlines. Both have the same "past" up to the point where the split occurred, but now have different 'futures' past that point.

in the two pasts, you'd both have a Trunks appearing to warn Goku, but in only one he returns to help the fight. This can't be, because the two Trunks' are perfectly equal.

Huh? What?

Watch the video again, you've completely missed the point. The two Trunkses both go back to the past twice. The only difference is that the first Trunks never goes to the Cell Games, because there weren't any. He came back to the future and got timemachine-jacked by Cell. That Cell goes back in time, creating a new timeline in which almost the exact same things happen. Except he emerges and tries to take over the world (and then destroy it).

[Terra-jin]

Ah, I see now. Guess I misunderstood you.

So when Trunks returns to his future, he creates a new timeline. This would mean that there is one future in which Trunks doesn't return at all, right?
When Trunks returns, does that mean that he goes to the future of the timeline he had just created, or not? In other words, would he arrive in a timeline in which Goku had been warned of the androids, but still died, resulting in roughly the same course of events as in his previous timeline?

[desirecampbell]

Heh, this whole thing is terribly confusing.

This would mean that there is one future in which Trunks doesn't return at all, right?

He always jumps to either his own timeline (in the event of a timemachine's first jump) or whatever timeline he was just from. And always creates a new timeline that offshoots that one. So he never goes back to the same timeline. Everytime he 'jumps' he goes into the timeline he creates.

So, Trunks goes back in time, meets goku. He goes back to the future and sees his mom again. But this is a new timeline, and in the original timeline Bulma is still waiting. Trunks then goes back to the past, meets Goku again. But this is another new timeline and so there's a Goku who's still waiting around for Trunks to show up (well, he didn't know he was comming back, but whatever). Trunks erturns to the future, meeting Bulma again, and leaving another one waiting. So, there's one Goku and two Bulmas waiting for Trunks to get back.

Timelines are hard. Don't feel discouraged if it's a lot to wrap your head around.