The Validity of the Daizenshuu

[omae no kaasan]

"Great lengths"? One line? Yeah... "great lengths".

Great lengths meaning they took the time to actually write it.

Given the information in the comic he is not considered anything other than a strange human.

Why would they actually even bother to write that he's an alien not only in the Daiz but also in his character bio in other places as well.

That is a great length, to write something that was never even touched upon. They obviously had a reason for it and if you can't accept that, you are indeed within that 1/4 of the US population.

Yes, I too believe the daizenshuu should be taken no more reliably than GT - for which he did the same thing.

That just means you're too stubborn to accept that AT is fallible. And there really isn't anything else to it than that.

If Toriyama put his name on the books (yep, it's there) if he sanctioned them and if he even went so far as too envy the use of them, then any sane human would accept that as his recognition of the material within.

I said it before. Any faults are thereby his own. If after all of that, you really can't accept them, then you have just proven you will only believe what you want to. Even since the author himself has said otherwise.

Which is what you're arguing in the first place...

The hypocrisy of which would have me in stitches if I still cared about the series that much.

[Olivier Hague]

Confirmations with higher level cannon are necessary.

Says who?

Basically because it's easy to split up the anime into 'derived from the manga' and 'filler made by Toei' (just like how there's a level for the two manga productions - they could be put together, but because there's a clear distinction it's easy to separate them in canon levels).

And there's no "clear distinction" between the different volumes of a book series? Come on...

With the daizenshuu and 'world books', they were written after everything else (manga, anime, filler, movies) so it's harder to determine where the information is derived from

Again, volumes 1, 2 and 4 are clearly based on the manga.

This is getting ridiculous. The next time I'll just call you an idiot.

You've already called me names before anyway, so...

You keep saying 'the daizenshuu don't need to be verified by anything' and then claim you're not saying the daizenshuu are infaillable.

They were supervised by Toriyama and published by Shûeisha, so I consider them to be correct unless proven wrong. Is that really so hard to understand?

Why not? If they correct the inconsistencies, for example?

That would be good. The daizenshuu are good sources of information. They are not a better source of information than the series itself, which it is based on.

Again, I ask: why not? If they correct the inconsistencies, for example?

What, exactly, did he contribute? What exactly?

Interviews, notes, etc. That's information.

how would that change the fact that the daizenshuu still aren't written by Toriyama?

They're databooks. Who cares who typed the damn thing? What matters is who provided the information.

[desirecampbell]

Great lengths meaning they took the time to actually write it.

Like they took the time to write that episode about the Dragonablls being scattered by the gods? Or that one about Planet Vegeta's Kami destroying it with meteors? What about GT? Considering that those productions would have taken considerable time, and the information about Ten being an alien being less imposing than what I've eritten in this post so far - I'd go with "no great lengths".

Given the information in the comic he is not considered anything other than a strange human.

Um, what? Those two techniques? No, they're strange, but so's everything else we see in the series. There's nothing definitivly alien about him.

Why would they actually even bother to write that he's an alien not only in the Daiz but also in his character bio in other places as well.

"Other places" being a videogame? Again, I'll say that using a videogame as backup is lame. If that's the best you can do, I weep for you.

That is a great length, to write something that was never even touched upon.

Writing about something that was never touched upon by the author is a bad idea.

They obviously had a reason for it and if you can't accept that, you are indeed within that 1/4 of the US population.

Eh? I have no idea what that 1/4 thing is about at all.

That just means you're too stubborn to accept that AT is fallible. And there really isn't anything else to it than that.

No, I accept that Toriyama is failable. We know that. I've actually said that in this thread already. How about reading my posts before replying like a jackass? Hague's already covering that angle.

You're too stubborn to accept that the daizenshuu might not be the be-all, end-all information source.

If Toriyama put his name on the books (yep, it's there) if he sanctioned them and if he even went so far as too envy the use of them, then any sane human would accept that as his recognition of the material within.

Um, perhaps I missed that part. I assume what was in your post was a translation. If it was, it says nothing more than "Gosh they worked hard. Great job boys! I can't remember anything, haha, I wish I had this while I was writing the manga. I think they're swell!". Nothing about checking the info, nothing about giving them information, nothing that he hasn't said about GT.

I said it before. Any faults are thereby his own. If after all of that, you really can't accept them, then you have just proven you will only believe what you want to. Even since the author himself has said otherwise.

Again, where did Toriyama say this?

Which is what you're arguing in the first place...

I'm arguing that the daizenshuu are less reliable than the information they are derived from. That information is from the manga, the author's notes, the anime, filler, TV specials, and movies.

Confirmations with higher level cannon are necessary.

Says who?

Says you. Why wouldn't it need to be confirmed by outside sources? If it was infailable. Is it infallible, or does it need to be verified by more reliable sources?

And there's no "clear distinction" between the different volumes of a book series? Come on...

Again, volumes 1, 2 and 4 are clearly based on the manga.

Oh for fuck's sake. Stop quoting part of what I explain to you. You look like a jackass and an idiot. Let's show everyone what I said in the last post, and what you chose to repost, shall we?

Basically because it's easy to split up the anime into 'derived from the manga' and 'filler made by Toei' (just like how there's a level for the two manga productions - they could be put together, but because there's a clear distinction it's easy to separate them in canon levels). I feel confident in splitting the two up because it's clear that some parts of the anime were either 'based on manga' or 'based on nothing' because there were no other sources to derive content from when the anime was being made. With the daizenshuu and 'world books', they were written after everything else (manga, anime, filler, movies) so it's harder to determine where the information is derived from, some information could be from the manga, or the anime, or anime filler, or a movie, or a TV special.... That, coupled with the fact that there are so many books that we'd have to make entries for each one specifically, leads me to be content with 'books written after the whole of the series is complete' being underneath manga, anime, and movies.
All information produced after the run of the series concluded is suspect of being derived from any of these adaptations, the daizenshuu included.

Wow, nice work not reading what I wrote days ago, ass.

What's that part right fter one of your quotes?
"With the daizenshuu and 'world books', they were written after everything else (manga, anime, filler, movies) so it's harder to determine where the information is derived from, some information could be from the manga, or the anime, or anime filler, or a movie, or a TV special.... That, coupled with the fact that there are so many books that we'd have to make entries for each one specifically, leads me to be content with 'books written after the whole of the series is complete' being underneath manga, anime, and movies."
Oh, did you see that last time? That part where I explained multiple reasons why all the daizenshuu, world books, and other merchandise? Did 'ya? Huh? Lil' Oliver? Can you read that much?

Don't act like I'm not explaining myself fully. Stop being a jackass.

They were supervised by Toriyama and published by Shûeisha, so I consider them to be correct unless proven wrong. Is that really so hard to understand?

What does "supervised" mean? Did he check each page to make sure that they were in fact correct? If so, I'll put them above the author's notes. Somehow I doubt that's the case though.

Again, I ask: why not? If they correct the inconsistencies, for example?
They can't be taken as more reliable by themselves. The information has to be confirmed by other sources.

Interviews, notes, etc. That's information.

It is indeed. Those notes would be considered very reliable. I repeat: "those notes". The daizenhshuu would be reliable because its information is confirmed by this outside source. Toriyama's input on specific points would make those very, very reliable.

Do you know of any?

They're databooks. Who cares who typed the damn thing? What matters is who provided the information.

Fuck you Hague. I've been through this before. Do I have to , again, explain the difference between 'Toriyama didn't write it' and 'Toriyama didn't type it'? Are you that big an idiot.

Fuck.

Fuck!

How can you even bring that shit up again? Have you no pride? Does anyone respect you anymore? Fuck! I can't believe you would try and act like you're retarded. You haven't had a solid argument since the thread started, are you going to actually add anything to the conversation? Or are you just going to misquote me, act like I'm asking retarded questions, and try and seem like you aren't a complete jackass?

Just wondering.

[Olivier Hague]

Writing about something that was never touched upon by the author is a bad idea.

Again, you're assuming the author wasn't involved. You don't know that.

Confirmations with higher level cannon are necessary.

Says who?

Says you.

I would know.

Why wouldn't it need to be confirmed by outside sources? If it was infailable.

1) It doesn't have to be infallible to be correct.
2) The author was involved, so it can be correct without being confirmed by other sources.

Oh for fuck's sake. Stop quoting part of what I explain to you. You look like a jackass and an idiot.

To you, maybe. Not that I really care.

Let's show everyone what I said in the last post, and what you chose to repost, shall we?

Boy, I'm sure that will change everything...

What's that part right fter one of your quotes?
"With the daizenshuu and 'world books', they were written after everything else (manga, anime, filler, movies) so it's harder to determine where the information is derived from, some information could be from the manga, or the anime, or anime filler, or a movie, or a TV special.... That, coupled with the fact that there are so many books that we'd have to make entries for each one specifically, leads me to be content with 'books written after the whole of the series is complete' being underneath manga, anime, and movies."

Ah, so here's the part that made me look like "a jackass and an idiot"!
(I hope you won't mind me changing the color to emphasize the relevant part... for the sake of clarity... 'took me a little while to see where you were really going with that...)

some information could be from the manga, or the anime, or anime filler, or a movie, or a TV special....

Did I tell you how volumes 1, 2 and 4 were based on the manga? As in "not based on the anime"?

Anyway I guess we're not there yet... Let's see...

That, coupled with the fact that there are so many books that we'd have to make entries for each one specifically

Unless you include the game guides, we don't have that many books. Just the Daizenshû, the four "recent" Kanzenban-looking guides, and the two "Dragon Ball GT" books. And how many of them are manga-based? Five. "Wow."
So that would be one extra entry for five books.

Ah, well. It's gotta be somewhere... Here's the last part...

leads me to be content with 'books written after the whole of the series is complete' being underneath manga, anime, and movies.

Well, damn...
I'm sorry! I must have missed the part that made me look like a jackass and an idiot!

What does "supervised" mean? Did he check each page to make sure that they were in fact correct? If so, I'll put them above the author's notes. Somehow I doubt that's the case though.

'Could be. You don't know, do you?

The information has to be confirmed by other sources.

And again, where does that "rule" come from?

Toriyama's input on specific points would make those very, very reliable.

Well, it's a good thing he worked with them on the books, then, I guess!

Do you know of any?

I wasn't there, so I wouldn't know the specifics. Were you?

[desirecampbell]

Okay Oliver, I give up. I can't discuss anything with you. I officially conceed to whatever point you were trying to make. Whatever you were saying, I agree with you.

We don't know if, or what Toriyama did in relation to the daizenshuu. Therefore, all the information in the daizenshuu is correct and should be treated as "more canonical" than the manga itself.

Sure some parts of the daizenshuu were based off of erroneous and unreliable information, but because they may have been seen by Toriyama, they must be right.

Okay? Can we stop now?

[Mr.Piccolo]

I agree, Desire. This argument stuff is so stupid. We should all just listen to Mr.Piccolo. Why do birds suddenly appear, anytime you are near..?

Above was a joke, but seriously the back and forth nonsense has to end. Theres no prize or winner of this. Relax.

[Olivier Hague]

I officially conceed to whatever point you were trying to make. Whatever you were saying, I agree with you.
We don't know if, or what Toriyama did in relation to the daizenshuu. Therefore, all the information in the daizenshuu is correct and should be treated as "more canonical" than the manga itself.

Hey, look! A fallacy! I'm shocked!
Can't you find more subtle ways of making me sound like an idiot?

[Godo]

I have to agree with Desirecampbell.

It's no more debating, it seems like one part has ran out of arguments.
"Yes it is!" and "No it isn't" is not debating. And from a certain part I see lack of information and the source, it's just mere speculation without concrete facts.

I think that it is time to leave this subject, as it probably would go on for decades, or even centuries, if the participants got hold of an immorality elixir. At least for the two most active participants.
It's a good choice for Desirecampbell to give in, as it seems like the both debaters skills are not the same.

The subject is tough though, and there is not much facts about it, so let's debate about it. Let's respect eachother. =)

[Olivier Hague]

I have to agree with Desirecampbell.

Again, I'm shocked! Who would have thought?

from a certain part I see lack of information

So do I. Funny, that.

It's a good choice for Desirecampbell to give in

Yeah, 'cause that's what it was. It wasn't an attempt to make me sound stupid by - wait for it - twisting my words. That was so classy. No wonder you agree with him.

Thank you, Godo. That was quite insightful, as usual.


Anyway.

Assuming desirecampbell actually still believes in what he's arguing, he apparently thinks that what's in the Daizenshû should be considered incorrect until proven right.
'Seems like an odd position to me (to say the least), for many reasons.
What about you?
(and no, I'm not asking you, Godo... just in case...)

[MartianOddity]

Oliver Hague! In real life you'd been beaten into a pulp already. Take care of your attitude or something will happen someday. At that time you won't have a screen between you and the debator.

[Olivier Hague]

Oliver Hague! In real life you'd been beaten into a pulp already.

MartianOddity! In real life, I don't frequent people who would settle arguments with their fists.

[MajinVejitaXV]

MartianOddity! In real life, I don't frequent people who would settle arguments with their fists.

No joke. Anyone who'd start a physical altercation over DragonBall needs to have their head examined. Besides, resorting to physical means typically is the result of one not having any further way to defend their viewpoint.

Anyway, I don't get this personally. If Toriyama approved these books, and they were published after the anime and manga ended (correct?), wouldn't that make them more canon than what preceeded them? You may consider them a retcon in some cases (just as Toriyama retconned Goku into being a Saiyajin), but it's canon nonetheless.

-Corey

[Panda]

The Daizenshuu are crap it seems. ALmost every thread on here seems to have manetion of them and then a contradiction of some sort on the next line... It can't be to overly reliable.

Definatly not something that should be taken to seriously.

[Olivier Hague]

If Toriyama approved these books, and they were published after the anime and manga ended (correct?)

After the manga ended, anyway.

wouldn't that make them more canon than what preceeded them?

Potentially, yeah, I'd think so...
If an author-approved official guide says something like "remember that thing in episode xx? well, whoops! that was a mistake!", I think we'd need a very good reason (a contradiction, for example?) not to trust it.
Sure, guides are fallible, so we might end up being wrong... but why assume the guide is?


It seems logical to me to consider the Daizenshû correct unless proven wrong.
Desirecampbell apparently thinks we should consider them wrong unless proven correct:
"If the daizenshuu are infallible, then Ten's an alien, and the only way to really prove the daizenshuu is infallible is if Ten's an alien. So, without any other concrete evidence we have to conclude that Ten isn't an alien, and therefore the daizenshuu aren't infallible."
(emphasis mine)

Also, by "concrete evidence", he explained many times that he means a "higher level of canon". What would that be? The manga or Toriyama himself, I guess.
Thing is, the manga is over. So we only have Toriyama left, right? Well, good luck with that...
And even if you somehow got a confirmation from Toriyama himself...
"[So if Toriyama were to tell us, say, Yamcha's age, it still wouldn't be canon as far as you're concerned, because there wouldn't be a scene in the manga where they actually talk about that?]
Yes (see the 'levels of canon')"
... it still wouldn't "really" be canon. It has to be in the manga, even if it's not relevant to the story. And the manga is over.
That basically means that "new" informations just can't really be considered canon, no matter their origins. I guess they could end up in some lower "canon level", but that's it. Harsh.


So, yeah. I disagree with him.
What about you guys?

You may consider them a retcon in some cases (just as Toriyama retconned Goku into being a Saiyajin)

I don't think that one would count as a "retcon", technically, considering Gokû's origins were unknown anyway. Even if Gokû being an alien wasn't what Toriyama had in mind in the beginning, it didn't contradict anything in the story, so...

The Daizenshuu are crap it seems.

No, they're not "crap"...

[Mr. Announcer]

Oh c'mon!!! These are all good points and I can see both sides based on that but getting right down to it (I'm going to have to repeat myself) ask yourselves this: Where did the writers get this information?

It's not in the manga. It's not in the anime. I'm guessing that leaves one place- Mr. Toriyama himself. Now, based on his statement in the Daizenshuu and what we know about him, do you really think, REALLY think, that he would waste a thought on the origin of Tenshinhan after the fact? Well, I don't know what you think but I think NO.

Assuming that they didn't get their information from him (once again, very likely) they probably wrote it themselves. Why? I have absolutely no idea.

I know, they're the daizenshuu. They're official. They do try to be as accurate as possible and for the most part they are. However, they can't just pull some idea about Tenshinhan being an alien out of nowhere and be more right than the manga. Toriyama is a forgetful guy so yeah, he's gonna say that they know better, and they may know the details better. But he's the creator, the source, and no matter what, any information about the series has to come from him even if he takes ideas from the anime and later incorporates it.

I can't deal with this "it's right because they say so" deal because "they" aren't the source. The data book is supposed to tell us about the source, but this information didn't come from it as far as I can tell.

[Olivier Hague]

Where did the writers get this information?

It's not in the manga. It's not in the anime. I'm guessing that leaves one place- Mr. Toriyama himself. Now, based on his statement in the Daizenshuu and what we know about him, do you really think, REALLY think, that he would waste a thought on the origin of Tenshinhan after the fact? Well, I don't know what you think but I think NO.

Assuming that they didn't get their information from him (once again, very likely) they probably wrote it themselves. Why? I have absolutely no idea.

That's the thing: I really don't see why they'd do that.
Toriyama having some backstory about Tenshinhan (which wouldn't necessarily be something he came up with after the end of series), on the other hand...

I know, they're the daizenshuu. They're official. They do try to be as accurate as possible and for the most part they are.

Precisely: and all of a sudden they make up something about Tenshinhan having alien ancestors? It would just be... weird, in my opinion.
Ah, well.

However, they can't just pull some idea about Tenshinhan being an alien out of nowhere and be more right than the manga.

If they did that without Toriyama's knowledge, I agree, naturally.

I can't deal with this "it's right because they say so" deal because "they" aren't the source. The data book is supposed to tell us about the source, but this information didn't come from it as far as I can tell.

But can we tell for sure? ^^;

[MartianOddity]

MartianOddity! In real life, I don't frequent people who would settle arguments with their fists.

It's his attitude I'm pointed at, nothing else, regardless what kind of discussion it is about his attitude is way wrong and not suited for a discussion.
Anyways, sorry for that, I did a bad one.

I only take into consideration what's written in the manga (sometimes anime too, it depends on probability) and nothing else.
It's because I only rely on myself when thinking about fiction, I need no data book to correct my fantasies and "what if's". For me, it takes away my joy for reading and watching fiction. That's my main explanation why I don't rely on Daizenshuu, for the sake of getting back to topic.

[omae no kaasan]

The Daizenshuu are crap it seems. ALmost every thread on here seems to have manetion of them and then a contradiction of some sort on the next line... It can't be to overly reliable.

Definatly not something that should be taken to seriously.

Yes, contradictions that extend as far as....Raditz power level. And Goku's date of revival....which no one brings up anyway but it's the one thing that stands out in my memory.

It's a deep conspiracy I tells ya.

Seriously, again, the Tenshinhan argument is plain ducking fumb. (intentional I assure you)

Why would they even write as such without good reason?

What evidence exists that he's human in the manga?

Precisely as much exists to the extent that he's an alien.

None.

So why would they even go so far as to create that?

I'm going to propose something here. It's revolutionary and it may very well blow the threshold of your very soul straight the fuck out your ear but what if they.....

asked AT.

The concept is stunning I realize but give it some time to settle in and I'm certain this possibility will soon blossom like a lotus in the mud of your grey matter.

AT supports daiz.

Where they contradict, go by the comic.

When they present new information not present in the comic, there's no evidence that exists to the contrary and with AT's name on it, it's approved.

For example, character's home addresses. Not every character has an address. Only specific ones were chosen. Furthermore, there's no sign of such in either the comic or animation. Yet we're given them in the daiz. Do you think people organizing a list of what is supposed to be considered a DB Bible played a few rounds of Thumper and came up with addresses for characters chosen by a blind and deaf monkey? No, there's a reason for their creation and I'm pretty sure it somehow relates to AT.

I have officially been into DB for 10 years this very weekend. And in those ten years, nothing has changed and people are still arguing against truth and fact tooth and nail just for the hell of it with the bottom line being:

They don't want to admit the possibility exists, however small, that they might actually be wrong about facts from a cartoon that the creator himself has long since put behind him.

[Rocketman]

AT supports tanks.

Everybody supports tanks!

[omae no kaasan]

Thank you for pointing out one of the typos that I was in the middle of correcting.

Now go read my updated post.