FUNi/Toei Comparisons

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

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Post by Blitzen » Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:24 am

Great Saiyaman wrote:What I mean was if what you like is the Original then it's a fact that you should logically go with the DragonBox....but the Dragon Box's superiority is not a fact.
Then it's fiction? We've proven time and time again, if you take natural market and cultural differences, its been done at a higher quality, quicker, and overall cheaper in some respects.
Anyway, what you are saying is still not a fact. Just because people are "experts" doesn't mean that what they are saying is true.
No, it's not, however you cannot advance in life if you assume everyone is essentially the same and that there is no 'authority' on the subject. If someone has been investing a lot of time, money, and life into a subject and their wealth of knowledge is more than yours, and if people who can actually research and concur, well, agree, then chances are those people are able to speak with amuch higher authority and call opinions out as fact, rather than just an opinion.

You're right. It's all an opinion, but there are opinions that ARE more valid than others.
Things have to be proven using undiputable evidence & by that I don't mean a majority of people agreeing.
Okay. TV series wise (let the movies be a seperate issue due to the nature of it's video), lets use substantial facts (which can be further backed by figures should we be able to).

The Japanese release has already come out, on less discs, with a higher bitrate and audio than the US releases. The Artwork is more appropriate and creative. There's a lack of front-loading trailers. There's no subtitles, however as this is a Japanese release, we can't hodl it against them, same as how we can't hold having an English dub against the US release. Afterall, they're in different markets, being sold to different audiences.

So once you've managed to detract the two major factors that seperate it (translation), which are as a result of markets, you're left with the core of the show. Regardless of what FUNimation received, it's extras pretty much pale in comparison to the Dragonbox. The Z release has also never been finished in a continual, uncut manner. It has a lower bitrate. The audio is worse. There's actually less intended animation. It's on more discs, which take up more space. It was done out of order.

I think those are considerable facts, assuming you're under the same beleif of what makes a release compotent (continual and logical).
By that I mean the Law of Gravity on earth.
Which can always be challenged, but that doesn't mean the person has any credibility or any clue what he is talking about.
Even if a poll which polled all 6 Billion people on earth & everyone but me said they profer the Original, it's still not a fact. Regardless of what is original or what "experts" say, Coloring of Anime will never be a fact. We could poll the entire US & ask which is tastier, a Hamburger or a Cricket. 98% of those people will say a burger, but in some places, Crickets and other bugs are delecasies. So those other 2% of the people aren't wrong, they just have different taste then the Hamburger lovers.
If you want it put in terms of experts, Pro food critics would also go in favor of hamburger, but that doesn't mean they're right.
Actually, it does, more or less. They've actually had the experience in food and what not.

Colouring in Anime is and can be an exact science. The people putting together these productions, from the higher and middle levels (even lower ones) are all educated men and women, who've spent years honing their skills in order to make the appropriate colours match up. Those are the colours as they were meant to be, they're the ones that were appropriatly chosen. It wasn't ever supposed to have bleeding colours in people's clothing. Ergo, better.
Okay dude I respect ya for it, but that's all your opinion. You have a right to it.
Thanks, but-
But you don't have a right to tell people they're sinning for preffering the video done a way that you don't like regardless of the low quality of the disk.
I'm not telling people they're sinning, I'm telling them in the broadest, plainest terms that the video they prefer is awful for this, this, and this reason. The only actual argument I've gotten back is that since it's 'tricked out', it's better, which is logic primarily used for marketting old things to 12 year olds. As far as I know, you guys are not 12 year olds and being on the 'best DB forum on the interbutt' or whatever else, I would have thought you'd have-

1. known better
2. not had the gaul to approve of such distasteful representation of the product despite how friendly FUNimation has gotten. Yeah sure, Toei approved it. Toei also approved One Piece and Knights of the Zodiac. Think about it.
Ultimatly people buy what they like quality be damned. How else do you explain say, Final Fantasy 7 outselling almost any other FF out there when it has exceptionally shoddy grahics? It was a prefferential purchase.
Well, considering the initial boom of FF7, it was actually a really good looking game. It's only ten years on (and sorry, maybe 2-3+) where it started to look dated, but by then it had accumulated a cult following.
We can compare specs all day and say you feel you choose the better set, and for you you did. But don't expect everyone to feel the same way.
I'm not expecting people to feel the same way, I'm simply putting out WHY it is better, and people are saying otherwise using the same "It's YOUR opinion", which essentially boils down to them saying "I Disagree but couldnt be FUCKED arguing!".
Same example as above, I actually DESPISE Final Fantasy 7 and feel it's the worst possible FF on a technical standpoint that you could buy. But it is also TONS of people's favorate game in the series. Or heck just between the three PS1 games its a lot of people's favorate, and yet it's the ugliest and shoddiest of the three. But it's still their favorate. When things come down to it a personal preffrence doesnt CARE about objective quality as it doesnt really matter to that individual - we as humans are by and large SUBJECTIVE not objective people.
And that's great (though considering FF7 came before 8-9, so it would OBVIOUSLY have worse quality, video/whatever wise), but there is also the harsh reality that people can have more valid opinions than yours. It's not that your preference isn't important, it's not that you're entitled to it, it's just there are people who are able to actually make judgements and assessments on art and literature and have it deemed more as a fact, rather than an opinion. Of course people and other reviewers/whatever will object or agree in all manners, but the fact of the matter is people can hold more authority over a subject and CAN basically prove the superiority of one thing over another.

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Post by laserkid » Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:55 am

you will note I haven't taken an actual position on the particular argument so don't look at me to make an argument, because as I've said I don't care. As for having authority giving more weight to an opinion, yes thats true. Do you folks have degrees in video editing though? Unless I'm mistaken on that everyone here knows the facts, and as I said YES the Toei discs are technically superior in quality. But they also lack subtitles. People may simply want the FUNi discs to understand the show and thats just as valid as wanting better piocture quality. In the end this IS a prerffrence issue between one video quality preffrence (a better overall look or a brighter look) and wether or not you care for subtitles. There are pluses and minuses to both versions. It may sound like I'm arguing for FUINimation's discs here but thats only because the only one whose arguing with me to not calm down has been you :P

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Post by desirecampbell » Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:10 am

Wow. This thread makes the Daizenshuu one look civil.

The dragonbox footage is technically superior to the Funi footage. Period.
That doesn't mean you can't prefer the Funi discs, it just means the footage is worse than the dragonbox. How is there even a discussion about this?

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Post by Domon » Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:42 am

Unless I'm mistaken on that everyone here knows the facts, and as I said YES the Toei discs are technically superior in quality. But they also lack subtitles.
I'm not sure the lack of subtitles should even be an issue. It strikes me the same as saying that American dvds don't have Germen or Russian subtitles. Yes, they don't, but so? Almost no one in America would care about such a thing. I imagine it's the same in Japan.

But hey, who knows? Perhaps Funimation will pull through for once and we'll actually get the Dragonbox footage for the American boxsets, thereby giving us an idealized presentation of the series(or they may not, I just prefer to wait-and-see for now).


As for this better picture vs brighter picture arguement, I've noticed one trend. Those that have seen only the Funimation footage prefers the Funimation footage. Those that have seen both the Funimation and Dragonbox footage prefers the Dragonbox footage. Seems to me those that have not seen the Dragonbox footage are not making a fair choice. It's easy to say that the Funimation version is better when you've only seen pictures of another version(as opposed to actually seeing it in motion). You may not change your mind, of course, but at least one would be able to say they had a fair chance to compare the two.

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Post by MajinVejitaXV » Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:30 pm

laserkid wrote:How else do you explain say, Final Fantasy 7 outselling almost any other FF out there when it has exceptionally shoddy grahics?
Because, when it came out in 1997, it was fairly innovative. And back then, the graphics weren't bad at all given the state of 3D at that time. Besides, it was intended to be SD.
Same example as above, I actually DESPISE Final Fantasy 7 and feel it's the worst possible FF on a technical standpoint that you could buy.
You'd say FFVII is worse from a technological standpoint than FFI for the Famicom? That's...hard to justify if you're just going from a technical perspective.
Or heck just between the three PS1 games its a lot of people's favorate, and yet it's the ugliest and shoddiest of the three. But it's still their favorate.
For a lot of people, it was their introduction to the series. And of course it's the ugliest, it was the first chronologically. If they didn't improve the appearance as time went on and they became more familiar with the limitations of the hardware, I'd be worried.

This whole comparison is kinda half-assed though. If someone was arguing that they liked the DB 10th Anniversary movie as opposed to the original series because the animation was more in line with the later style of GT than that of the original Toriyama manga, it'd be more applicable. We're arguing about two copies of the same exact thing being released in different ways by different companies.

A better comparison would be to argue the US and Japanese versions of FFVII against eachother. Say that Sony horribly butchered the US release of FFVII, but at the same time we got extra bosses/scenes/etc whereas the Japanese got the better script (because it didn't have the translation goofs).
Ah but this comes down to not negligence but preffrence. It is no more less valid to decide to go with one coloration choice then another then to CHOOSE a version with or without subtitles.
I'm not talking about a consumer standpoint, I'm talking about a company. Individuals are usually attracted to brighter colors, that's why floor display TV's are usually cranked up in terms of contrast and color, and why reds are sometimes emphasized to give more vibrant fleshtones. Problem is, take a Plasma TV home and set it up like that, and it'll burn in. Why? Because it's not the right way to display a picture.

FUNi obviously doesn't feel this is a good all-around approach, but their other discs aren't over saturated. So why do they do it? Well, the same reason they changed the music, the dialogue and so on: To attract children, who have marked low-attention spans.

Read up on reference levels. That's all I'm saying.
ALL thats gotten me riled up is how nasty everyone is being over a pretty damn ridiculous preffrence argument.
Which is why it went to a technological arguement. You don't care about quality? Cool. I have standards, and if someone wants my money, they have to meet them. It's not very hard to do so.

My whole thing is this: Ever see a picture of a girl that makes her look good, then you meet her in real life and wanna run for the mountains? That's what FUNi's discs are. They're the girl who can take good still pictures, but in motion...oh God...

Good enough comparison?

-Corey

Q: Will the Japanese theme song be included at all in the U.S. broadcast of Dragon Ball Z? If not, how did you decide what type of music would be used?

A: No, we composed a new theme. It was done in Los Angeles. It's a very distinctive sound, and I'm told it's of the sort that's very popular among American children right now. [Cindy Brennan Fukunaga]


-Animerica magazine, Vol. 4, No.11 (November 1996)

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Post by fps_anth » Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:37 pm

Q: Will the Japanese theme song be included at all in the U.S. broadcast of Dragon Ball Z? If not, how did you decide what type of music would be used?

A: No, we composed a new theme. It was done in Los Angeles. It's a very distinctive sound, and I'm told it's of the sort that's very popular among American children right now. [Cindy Brennan Fukunaga]


-Animerica magazine, Vol. 4, No.11 (November 1996)
......Rock the Dragon???? :cry:

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Post by Casual Matt » Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:50 pm

fps_anth wrote:
Q: Will the Japanese theme song be included at all in the U.S. broadcast of Dragon Ball Z? If not, how did you decide what type of music would be used?

A: No, we composed a new theme. It was done in Los Angeles. It's a very distinctive sound, and I'm told it's of the sort that's very popular among American children right now. [Cindy Brennan Fukunaga]


-Animerica magazine, Vol. 4, No.11 (November 1996)
......Rock the Dragon???? :cry:
DUN DUN DUNDUN DUNDUN DUN DUN DUN WAAAAAAAH!

*ahem*

Hey, Rock the Dragon was catchy. Personally, I liked it better than the theme YTV used or the likes of this.

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Post by laserkid » Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:53 pm

Domon - I'm not talking from an objective point of view when I reffrence the subtitles. I'm merely talking about why you would choose one or the other. Choosing a version with subtitles over one that lacks them IS a valid reason for choosing something just as much for picture quality choice. I am not calling Toei shoddy for not including subtitles - how many times do I need to tell you I just flat out don't give a damn about the diffrence between the two? All I'm saying in reffrence to subtitles is its a relevant reason to choose the FUNimation discs over the Toei ones. But if you people WANT me to take a stance so you all will shut up it's the following:

-The Toei discs DO look MUCH cleaner and nicer
-But I lack Japanese fluency

Those are about the only two stances I can take on the discs. If I had Japanese fluency hell fuck yes I'd go for the Toei discs. I also lack a eigon 2 DVD player though. My point has never been to say the FUNimation discs look better, I really don't think they do (in the majority of the cases) - and yet, I own most of the series on them.

MY entire god damned point has been, and still is to stop being so violent with those who disagree with you. It was not JUST meant to the side choosing the Toei discs mind you. I fully meant this to those going angrily at you guys too, but none of those people have responded that they should be allowed to act like asses about their opinion being superior. God damn, really ever heard the phrase you get more flies with honey then vinegar? How do you expect to change peoples minds while actively attacking them for holding opposing viewpoints? I dont care about the technical overlook thats been taken I'm talking about the massive flames going back and forth much earlier in this thread, the only reason I said anything is because I have too much respect for all of you to think you guys would level headedly act this way.

Majin-Vegeta - Actually yes, from a technical standpoint FF1 is a superior product to FF7. It takes far fuller advantage of the Famicom then FF7 did. And no, for the time FF7 didnt look good either, it caught on because it had at the time pretty FMVs and it was the first majorly advertized RPG on our side of the shore. It was also as you said the first one most people got. But if you want to count that as a valid reason for liking it over the others, then you also have to count those that claim the FUNimation discs are better because they came first (mind you not an argument I buy).

As far as a technological argument goes, didnt you catch me numerous times saying that the Toei discs ARE technologically superior, how many times now? And yes, you dont HAVE to tell me what the FUNimation discs look like in motion...I own most of them, I KNOW. I find it dumbfounding that you guys are arguing with me that both choices are valid, but the Toei discs are of superior video quality.

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Post by Olivier Hague » Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:22 pm

laserkid wrote:Actually yes, from a technical standpoint FF1 is a superior product to FF7. It takes far fuller advantage of the Famicom then FF7 did.
Er... Yes? How can you tell, exactly?
And no, for the time FF7 didnt look good either
I remember it did.

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Post by Kaboom » Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:37 pm

The Lecherous Muten Roshi wrote: ...or the likes of this.
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Post by Great Saiyaman » Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:27 pm

Blitzen- I'm not talking about quality, most oif the stuff you are mentioning are pretty much fact. I am talking about which coloring looks better.
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Post by Deus ex Machina » Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:27 pm

Anyone who would choose the Funimation DVD's over Toei's based on picture quality and colors need to consider something; that's not the way it's supposed to be! Just because you like the brighter colors and contrast doesn't make it a valid choice.

Consider I'm playing Super Mario Brothers, and I don't like my picture. So I fiddle with the color settings until Mario's over alls are yellow and his hair is green. I can leave it like that if I want, and I can say I like it better than the original even, but I'm still watching an innacurate portrayal of the game. This is basically the same arguement.

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Post by Gokuden553 » Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:17 pm

The Lecherous Muten Roshi wrote:
fps_anth wrote:
Q: Will the Japanese theme song be included at all in the U.S. broadcast of Dragon Ball Z? If not, how did you decide what type of music would be used?

A: No, we composed a new theme. It was done in Los Angeles. It's a very distinctive sound, and I'm told it's of the sort that's very popular among American children right now. [Cindy Brennan Fukunaga]


-Animerica magazine, Vol. 4, No.11 (November 1996)
......Rock the Dragon???? :cry:
DUN DUN DUNDUN DUNDUN DUN DUN DUN WAAAAAAAH!

*ahem*

Hey, Rock the Dragon was catchy. Personally, I liked it better than the theme YTV used or the likes of this.
I remember seeing that intro on Toonami, also their was another intro aswell.

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Post by Mr.Piccolo » Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:21 pm

Deus ex Machina wrote:Anyone who would choose the Funimation DVD's over Toei's based on picture quality and colors need to consider something; that's not the way it's supposed to be! Just because you like the brighter colors and contrast doesn't make it a valid choice.
Well it doesn't really make it "the valid choice", its more on the preference of the consumer. If someone wants the FUNi dvds so be it, its not money out of your(not directed at one person) pocket. I prefer FUNi's dvds because of its convenience of purchasing them and price range. The Toei ones are fine too, don't get me wrong, but overall FUNi's is better imo.
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Post by MajinVejitaXV » Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:31 am

laserkid wrote:Majin-Vegeta - Actually yes, from a technical standpoint FF1 is a superior product to FF7.
...wow. Can you explain? I don't think I've ever heard someone try to defend Final Fantasy I as a superior technological accomplishment compared to Final Fantasy VII.
It takes far fuller advantage of the Famicom then FF7 did.
I sure hope so:

Famicom released July 15, 1983, Final Fantasy I released December 18, 1987. Time lapse: Approximately 4 years.

Playstation released December 3, 1994, Final Fantasy VII released January 31, 1997. Approximate lapse of 2 years.

I'd sure hope the limitations of hardware would be moreso known after 4 years than 2 :P
And no, for the time FF7 didnt look good either, it caught on because it had at the time pretty FMVs and it was the first majorly advertized RPG on our side of the shore.
Really? Wow. I could swear I was alive back then and owned the console, and didn't see anything the dwarfed FFVII and made it look 'bad' for its time. If you can tell me something that came out before 1/31/97 that blew it out of the water, please refresh my memory. The only other real RPG I can think of was Wild ARMS, and it didn't seem to overpower FFVII graphically.

Besides, call me crazy but in an RPG, isn't story just a bit important? O_o;
It was also as you said the first one most people got. But if you want to count that as a valid reason for liking it over the others, then you also have to count those that claim the FUNimation discs are better because they came first (mind you not an argument I buy).
Well, that's a crap comparison. Again, you're talking about different products and chronological progression. We're talking about the same product, EXACT same product, released by two territories. That's like someone saying Anime Labs is superior to FUNi because they brought DBZ to America first, nevermind the quality.

Where am I not being clear here?

-Corey

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Post by Great Saiyaman » Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:46 am

Deus ex Machina wrote:Anyone who would choose the Funimation DVD's over Toei's based on picture quality and colors need to consider something; that's not the way it's supposed to be! Just because you like the brighter colors and contrast doesn't make it a valid choice.

Consider I'm playing Super Mario Brothers, and I don't like my picture. So I fiddle with the color settings until Mario's over alls are yellow and his hair is green. I can leave it like that if I want, and I can say I like it better than the original even, but I'm still watching an innacurate portrayal of the game. This is basically the same arguement.
....Yes it does. Don't be an asshole, you're not the one who invented what looks good & what's does. And once again, I am not refering to picture QUALITY. I am reffering to the coloring which is much brighter & better looking as far as I am concerned. Just because you're a purist doesn't mean everyone has to be.
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Post by laserkid » Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:00 am

majin vegeta - Take a look at say topbal number 1 for better then FF7 graphics on thge PS1 :P

And yes, actually I'd agree that FF7's story is the more important part (and why I dont like it).

However you're sticking to an analogy (that has admittingly failed) and missing the point so let me put my point to you simply:

Play nice, please.

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Post by MajinVejitaXV » Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:16 am

laserkid wrote:majin vegeta - Take a look at say topbal number 1 for better then FF7 graphics on thge PS1 :P
http://www.vgzone.com/reviews/psx/tobal.htm

I've seen the game before, but I figured I'd look it up. Strangely, it looks the same as I remember: No better than FFVII. Funny thing is, it's also a Square game.
And yes, actually I'd agree that FF7's story is the more important part (and why I dont like it).
That's cool. It's admittedly heavily borrowing elements from FFVI, but I enjoyed it nonetheless.
Play nice, please.
I always try. I don't think I've been rude, so much as trying to get people to realize that brighter colors doesn't always make a product better. That seems to be the sticking point here.

And just to reinforce fact here, nothing I say here is personal. Again, we're talking a non-living/breathing/feeling product when we compare FUNi vs. Toei. People need to relax and not act as though they're being attacked because I disagree with their 'preference' ;p
Don't be an asshole, you're not the one who invented what looks good & what's does. And once again, I am not refering to picture QUALITY. I am reffering to the coloring which is much brighter & better looking as far as I am concerned. Just because you're a purist doesn't mean everyone has to be.
Wouldn't color enter into quality? Typically, when referring to digital video, quality is determined by color, clarity and so on. Liking the original colors the series was animated with (which, btw, look much better on my TV than this monitor, perhaps due to differences in color spaces) doesn't make one a 'purist', IMHO.

-Corey

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Post by Great Saiyaman » Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:56 pm

Perhaps not to the full extent of the word purist. But it has it's meanings.
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Post by MajinVejitaXV » Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:47 am

Hm...

Purist - One who desires that a particular item remain true to its essence and free from adulterating or diluting influences.

Yeah, I guess that's fair enough. I suppose I'm a purist when it comes to this series. I subscribe to a 'if it isn't broken, don't fix it' notion. Oh well, I enjoy my discs, and you enjoy yours. I also enjoy FUNi's take on Fruits Basket and Samurai 7 looks beautiful (just bought it yesterday).

This bantering back and forth goes nowhere though. I can argue until I'm blue in the face, as can everyone else. Let's just close this topic.

Mike, if you please...

-Corey

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