How strong are Android 19,20

[Kamiccolo9]

Mecha Freeza who is 50% is on 80,000,000 and i put King Cold around 50,000,000 - 100,000,000

King Cold is actually a lot weaker than people realize. Remember that while he was strong enough to make Freeza get dirty in combat, nothing suggests he came close to doing well against Freeza, just that Freeza had to take him more seriously than anybody he's ever fought before. Since Cold has never seen Freeza's third form, this means Freeza's second form is stronger than Cold. That puts Cold between 120,000 (Ginyu's max) and 1,000,000 or lower.

Meanwhile, the reason Mecha Freeza is so cocky is because he's stronger than he was compared to when he last fought Goku. That means Mecha Freeza is over 120,000,000 at whatever strength we see him at.

Cold being that weak would put him as weaker than Vegeta and Piccolo, and they wouldn't be freaking out at sensing him.

And Cold may not have seen Freeza's third form, but he would have definitely seen his true form, which is much stronger. Given how Freeza's forms work, the third form could just as easily have been a relatively recent addition that Freeza made on a whim the day before the Namek Arc started.

[dbgtFO]

Piccolo raised his power so of course Krillin could have sensed it. He flat out states he was as strong as a SSjin

Actually, his statement wasn't that Piccolo was as strong as a Super Saiya-jin. He simply comments that it's amazing that Piccolo is so strong, and he's not even a Super Saiya-jin. All that necessarily means is that he's incredibly strong for not being one, not necessarily that he was on the same level as one. For example, he could be in the range of 90 million or so, which is a considerable amount less than the 150 mil of Ssj Goku during the Freeza Saga. However, at that time period in the story, 90 million is incredibly strong for not being a Super Saiya-jin.

That guy you're replying to is temp banned and this thread is like 3 years old
@DanielSSJ you could just have bumped one of the more recent threads about this topic. I'm sure it wasn't more than 2 weeks ago there was a topic like this.
But anyways I agree with past hlev, #19 and Dr. Gero aren't all that.

[Kamiccolo9]

Piccolo raised his power so of course Krillin could have sensed it. He flat out states he was as strong as a SSjin

Actually, his statement wasn't that Piccolo was as strong as a Super Saiya-jin. He simply comments that it's amazing that Piccolo is so strong, and he's not even a Super Saiya-jin. All that necessarily means is that he's incredibly strong for not being one, not necessarily that he was on the same level as one. For example, he could be in the range of 90 million or so, which is a considerable amount less than the 150 mil of Ssj Goku during the Freeza Saga. However, at that time period in the story, 90 million is incredibly strong for not being a Super Saiya-jin.

That guy you're replying to is temp banned and this thread is like 3 years old
@DanielSSJ you could just have bumped one of the more recent threads about this topic. I'm sure it wasn't more than 2 weeks ago there was a topic like this.
But anyways I agree with past hlev, #19 and Dr. Gero aren't all that.

FNF's been temp banned for like, a year. I'm pretty sure the last time he posted it still listed him as temp banned, so I think it's just an oversight.

[DBZAOTA482]

Strong enough to beat, but not to outright stomp, 50% Freeza with confidence.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I've never really seen anything placing 19 and 20 below Freeza tbh. I think pre absorbtions they're right around Mecha arc Trunks, and post they're stronger than Yardrat Goku.

[gojirason]

Numbers 19 and 20 pretty much unambiguously have more energy than the main cast at this point, with the possible exception of Vegeta. This is pretty much hammered into us.

The issue is that energy and power are two different things, and it's sheer quantity of energy reserve that Gero was paying too much attention to. The exact reasons for how this difference is utilized being explained by Piccolo.

With that in mind, the question of "How strong are they?" becomes a little confusing.

[Darkprince410]

That guy you're replying to is temp banned and this thread is like 3 years old
@DanielSSJ you could just have bumped one of the more recent threads about this topic. I'm sure it wasn't more than 2 weeks ago there was a topic like this.
But anyways I agree with past hlev, #19 and Dr. Gero aren't all that.

Wasn't paying attention to the date. Saw the topic was on the front page and just went with that.

I've never really seen anything placing 19 and 20 below Freeza tbh. I think pre absorbtions they're right around Mecha arc Trunks, and post they're stronger than Yardrat Goku.

There's nothing really placing them above Freeza either. Ssj Vegeta and Piccolo were easily trouncing them in terms of power (Goku was too, though his heart virus ended up hitting him hard), and Piccolo even thought that that one of the reasons they won was because #19 and Gero weren't as strong as Trunks made them out to be. Then there's that Goku was able to at least stagger Gero with a punch while in his base form, which doesn't seem like he'd be able to do during that time in the storyline if Gero were stronger than 100% full power Freeza.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

There's nothing really placing them above Freeza either.

#20 post was considered possible as being able to clown SSJ Trunks (Trunks saga), even after seeing #20's movements.

Artificial Human #20 ~ Artificial Humans (expected) >> SSJ Trunks (Trunks saga) >> Mecha Freeza >/>> Freeza

Ssj Vegeta and Piccolo were easily trouncing them in terms of power (Goku was too, though his heart virus ended up hitting him hard)

And all of those people are stronger than Freeza.

and Piccolo even thought that that one of the reasons they won was because #19 and Gero weren't as strong as Trunks made them out to be.

And the other reason was that they had perhaps became too strong.

Then there's that Goku was able to at least stagger Gero with a punch while in his base form, which doesn't seem like he'd be able to do during that time in the storyline if Gero were stronger than 100% full power Freeza.

It was off guard. Off guard hits always move people. Piccolo and Freeza, Kid Trunks and Fat Buu, etc..

[Hitiro]

There's nothing really placing them above Freeza either.

#20 post was considered possible as being able to clown SSJ Trunks (Trunks saga), even after seeing #20's movements.

Artificial Human #20 ~ Artificial Humans (expected) >> SSJ Trunks (Trunks saga) >> Mecha Freeza >/>> Freeza

When was it ever said the #20 could clown about with SSJ Trunks? Am I missing a line here?

Ssj Vegeta and Piccolo were easily trouncing them in terms of power (Goku was too, though his heart virus ended up hitting him hard)

And all of those people are stronger than Freeza.

Vegeta, yeah definitely. But it's debatable with Piccolo. Piccolo was in the 1-3 million range on Namek. He would have to get 120x-40x stronger in the 3 years of training. I'm not saying that is impossible. But it is more likely that these Androids were lower than 100% Freeza.

and Piccolo even thought that that one of the reasons they won was because #19 and Gero weren't as strong as Trunks made them out to be.

And the other reason was that they had perhaps became too strong.

The problem with this though is Goku was dead in the original timeline. So of course one could be led to the conclusion that Goku could have beat them if he was still alive and the other characters were all fodder against them because they weren't SSJ levels of strength. If the Androids were 50% Freeza and the characters were still as strong as their Namek arc selves they are obviously going to be trounced.

Then there's that Goku was able to at least stagger Gero with a punch while in his base form, which doesn't seem like he'd be able to do during that time in the storyline if Gero were stronger than 100% full power Freeza.

It was off guard. Off guard hits always move people. Piccolo and Freeza, Kid Trunks and Fat Buu, etc..

How was this an off-guard hit exactly? Goku hit Gero from the front, completely in Gero's vision, and Goku screamed "Stop it!" before he even punched him. It makes sense in with the other examples you gave. Not this one though.

[dbgtFO]

How was this an off-guard hit exactly? Goku hit Gero from the front, completely in Gero's vision, and Goku screamed "Stop it!" before he even punched him. It makes sense in with the other examples you gave. Not this one though.

It's an off-guard hit, as Dr. Gero was in the midst of firing his eye beams.

[Hitiro]

It's an off-guard hit, as Dr. Gero was in the midst of firing his eye beams.

Eye beams stop him from registering visual and audio things now? I don't see why him firing eye beams would mean he wouldn't notice Goku darting towards him right in-front of his eyes and completely ignore Goku screaming "Stop it!"

[dbgtFO]

It's an off-guard hit, as Dr. Gero was in the midst of firing his eye beams.

Eye beams stop him from registering visual and audio things now? I don't see why him firing eye beams would mean he wouldn't notice Goku darting towards him right in-front of his eyes and completely ignore Goku screaming "Stop it!"

He wouldn't notice Goku, because he had already turned away from him whilst firing the beams.

[Hitiro]

He wouldn't notice Goku, because he had already turned away from him whilst firing the beams.

If anything he was standing side on when Goku punched him so he should have been able to see Goku out of the corner of his eye. Still doesn't subtract from the fact that Goku screamed at him to stop it before he punched him. Honestly, if it was an off-guard hit Goku would have knocked him much further than that. Vegeta later does an off-guard hit against #19 and pushes him a good 10-20 metres compared to Goku making Gero stagger. All the off-guard hits we've seen have knocked enemies much further than what we saw Goku do here. Even Piccolo, with the huge gap between him and Freeza, managed to knock Freeza a good distance.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

When was it ever said the #20 could clown about with SSJ Trunks? Am I missing a line here?

Vegeta, yeah definitely. But it's debatable with Piccolo. Piccolo was in the 1-3 million range on Namek. He would have to get 120x-40x stronger in the 3 years of training. I'm not saying that is impossible. But it is more likely that these Androids were lower than 100% Freeza.

Piccolo: "But whether you weren't as tough as we thought... ... or we grew too strong, the result is..."

Underlined part. "Or whether we grew strong", which means it's still possible for them to be as strong as expected, which would be far stronger than Future Trunks, based on Trunks' descriptions of them.

Piccolo > Artificial Humans (expected) ~ Android 20 >>> Trunks

I don't see how Piccolo being above Freeza is debatable..... Piccolo is wondering if he just became too strong for the Androids who are stronger than Trunks, who is stronger than Freeza, and everyone else there who can sense Piccolo don't contradict him, if they felt his ki and knew he was weaker than Freeza, they would've instantly came to the conclusion that the Androids were weaker than expected, but they didn't...

I mean, unless you wanna say Piccolo is wrong... which would be completely baseless..

The problem with this though is Goku was dead in the original timeline. So of course one could be led to the conclusion that Goku could have beat them if he was still alive and the other characters were all fodder against them because they weren't SSJ levels of strength. If the Androids were 50% Freeza and the characters were still as strong as their Namek arc selves they are obviously going to be trounced.

But they know the Android were stronger than Super Saiyan Trunks, who is stronger than 100% Freeza....

How was this an off-guard hit exactly? Goku hit Gero from the front, completely in Gero's vision, and Goku screamed "Stop it!" before he even punched him. It makes sense in with the other examples you gave. Not this one though.

Because Gero isn't facing towards Goku in the last panel we see Gero, and there's never a panel that shows Goku catching Gero's attention before the hit. The whole continuity of the scene seems pretty screwy.

Also, if you wanna say he was on guard and take that feat seriously, that'd make no sense when SSJ Goku (who's stronger than Yardrat SSJ Goku) didn't instantly one-shot Android 19 (who's as strong as or weaker than Android 20).

[Hitiro]

When was it ever said the #20 could clown about with SSJ Trunks? Am I missing a line here?

Vegeta, yeah definitely. But it's debatable with Piccolo. Piccolo was in the 1-3 million range on Namek. He would have to get 120x-40x stronger in the 3 years of training. I'm not saying that is impossible. But it is more likely that these Androids were lower than 100% Freeza.

Piccolo: "But whether you weren't as tough as we thought... ... or we grew too strong, the result is..."

Underlined part. "Or whether we grew strong", which means it's still possible for them to be as strong as expected, which would be far stronger than Future Trunks, based on Trunks' descriptions of them.

We know that the Androids should be stronger than SSJ Trunks but it is never said that they could clown about with him. Even later we get an affirmation that Trunks could at least handle them. And nothing earlier than this statement suggests they are so powerful in comparison to SSJ Trunks that they could toy with him. So no. Nothing suggests that #20 could clown about with SSJ Trunks.

Piccolo > Artificial Humans (expected) ~ Android 20 >>> Trunks

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

Definitely not that much of difference between SSJ Trunks and the Androids of his timeline. So no. If anything they're more equal to each other than being vastly superior to him. If anything it would be like this:

Piccolo > Androids >= SSJ Trunks

But honestly, Piccolo suggests that they are possibly not as strong as Trunks made them out to be. And Vegeta also says this too. And if you really want to place them at Trunks timeline level of power then Piccolo would have had to trained to the point where he was a maximum of over 120x if he was closer to 1 million in the Namek arc. And over 40x if he was closer to 3 million.

I don't see how Piccolo being above Freeza is debatable..... Piccolo is wondering he just became too strong for the Androids are stronger than Trunks, who is stronger than Freeza, and everyone else there who can sense Piccolo don't contradict him, if they felt his ki and knew he was weaker than Freeza, they would've instantly came to the conclusion that the Androids were weaker than expected, but they didn't...

Piccolo also wondered if they were just weaker than Trunks made them out to be. You're siding with one point of his words more than the other. Even Vegeta said that they weren't as bad as Trunks made them out to be. We don't even know if Trunks is stronger than 100% of Mecha Freeza's power either. It is possible he didn't use all of it in the fight against SSJ Trunks. SSJ Goku certainly handled SSJ Trunks very easily when they sparred. Goku was clearly superior to him yet Goku couldn't have really gotten any stronger at this point because he tells us that the only thing he managed to do is learn the Yardratian teleport while he was there.

I mean, unless you wanna say Piccolo is wrong... which would be completely baseless..

How can I say he is wrong when he was just making assumptions? He never flat out said "We grew too strong." as a fact. What he says is "Or have we grown too strong?..." which is just him wondering whether that is the case. But even if we were to say Piccolo was stating this as a fact then it wouldn't be completely baseless. Vegeta also said that the Androids weren't as strong as they seemed.

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”

At this point both Piccolo and Vegeta have suggested they aren't as bad as what Trunks said. And Vegeta pretty much states that they aren't as terrible as Trunks said. So they are definitely below Trunks' timeline Androids.

The problem with this though is Goku was dead in the original timeline. So of course one could be led to the conclusion that Goku could have beat them if he was still alive and the other characters were all fodder against them because they weren't SSJ levels of strength. If the Androids were 50% Freeza and the characters were still as strong as their Namek arc selves they are obviously going to be trounced.

But they know the Android were stronger than Super Saiyan Trunks, who is stronger than 100% Freeza....

We don't know where Trunks is placed in strength though. From his little skirmish against SSJ Goku it is clear that Goku outstrips him. So the order could easily be:

SSJ Goku > Androids > SSJ Trunks > Mecha Freeza

And we also don't know if SSJ Trunks beat Mecha Freeza at his full power either. So it is also a possibility that Mecha Freeza could be above SSJ Trunks at full power.

How was this an off-guard hit exactly? Goku hit Gero from the front, completely in Gero's vision, and Goku screamed "Stop it!" before he even punched him. It makes sense in with the other examples you gave. Not this one though.

Because Gero isn't facing towards Goku in the last panel we see Gero, and there's never a panel that shows Goku catching Gero's attention before the hit. The whole continuity of the scene seems pretty screwy.

Also, if you wanna say he was on guard and take that feat seriously, that'd make no sense when SSJ Goku (who's stronger than Yardrat SSJ Goku) didn't instantly one-shot Android 19 (who's as strong as or weaker than Android 20).

Gero was facing side-ways to Goku, he should have enough peripheral vision to catch him out of the corner of his eye. Goku also screamed at Gero to stop it so I don't see why Gero wouldn't be aware of Goku.

Why would it make no sense? For starters, Goku was showing the affects of his heart problem at his point. Even Piccolo said his power should be greater than what it was when he was fighting #19. Secondly, these guys are mechanical androids. Their defence is probably based around the durability of the material they are made out of. Not the Ki that their batteries contain. If anything, the material they are made out of is possibly amplified by the Ki they contain. So #19's durability is not going to match his Ki output. It is more than likely going to exceed it by quite a bit. This isn't really baseless either. If you recall after they get to Gero's secret lab Tenshinhan and Kuririn, two characters with huge amounts of Ki, couldn't even beat a metal door down. Unless you want to tell me that metal door had Ki rivalling both Tenshinhan and Kuririn? Therefore:

Metal Door
Ki: 0
Durability: 100,000

Kuririn
Ki: 90,000

Tenshinhan
Ki: 80,000

#19
Ki: 130,000,000
Durability: 100,000,000
Durability amplified by Ki: 230,000,000

SSJ Goku
Ki: 200,000,000

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

We know that the Androids should be stronger than SSJ Trunks but it is never said that they could clown about with him. Even later we get an affirmation that Trunks could at least handle them. And nothing earlier than this statement suggests they are so powerful in comparison to SSJ Trunks that they could toy with him. So no. Nothing suggests that #20 could clown about with SSJ Trunks.

That's after Trunks arrives back. When he first describes them to Goku, and Piccolo who over-hears them, he says the Androids have "power unlike anything in this world", which implies a big gap.

Definitely not that much of difference between SSJ Trunks and the Androids of his timeline. So no. If anything they're more equal to each other than being vastly superior to him. If anything it would be like this:

Piccolo > Androids >= SSJ Trunks

But honestly, Piccolo suggests that they are possibly not as strong as Trunks made them out to be. And Vegeta also says this too. And if you really want to place them at Trunks timeline level of power then Piccolo would have had to trained to the point where he was a maximum of over 120x if he was closer to 1 million in the Namek arc. And over 40x if he was closer to 3 million.

There's not much of a difference between Android arc Trunks and the Androids, not Mecha arc Trunks. Mecha arc Trunks thinks the Androids are "monsters with power beyond imagination" or something like that.

Piccolo also wondered if they were just weaker than Trunks made them out to be. You're siding with one point of his words more than the other. Even Vegeta said that they weren't as bad as Trunks made them out to be. We don't even know if Trunks is stronger than 100% of Mecha Freeza's power either. It is possible he didn't use all of it in the fight against SSJ Trunks. SSJ Goku certainly handled SSJ Trunks very easily when they sparred. Goku was clearly superior to him yet Goku couldn't have really gotten any stronger at this point because he tells us that the only thing he managed to do is learn the Yardratian teleport while he was there.

But think about it, how much of a dumbass would Piccolo have to be to wonder if his power is too strong for the guys who are stronger than SSJ Trunks if Piccolo himself is weaker than Freeza? Because to say Piccolo is pondering this possibility if he's even weaker than Freeza would mean Piccolo is just an idiot.

Trunks told Freeza to come at him full power and was fully confident. I know most people use the whole "Trunks has no way of knowing how strong Freeza is!" excuse, but think about it like this:

Toriyama is simple minded.He wouldn't say "let's have Trunks make a cocky statement with no value, despite Trunks not even being cocky." It's just a way of showing that Trunks is just that much stronger than Freeza, and these new fearsome villains are even stronger than that.

Also, Goku never actually says he didn't improve, just he spent a lot of time learning the technique, he also could've gotten a zenkai from Namek.

But there's really no evidence for Freeza > Trunks, that's baseless, and makes no sense with Trunks telling Freeza and Cold to come at him full power.

How can I say he is wrong when he was just making assumptions? He never flat out said "We grew too strong." as a fact. What he says is "Or have we grown too strong?..." which is just him wondering whether that is the case. But even if we were to say Piccolo was stating this as a fact then it wouldn't be completely baseless. Vegeta also said that the Androids weren't as strong as they seemed.

Not that he's wrong essentially, but I'm just not seeing how them being too strong can possibly be fathomed would be possible if he's weaker than Freeza.

Everyone there can sense him, and if they knew he was weaker than Freeza, they should've caught on that the Androids are weaker than expected, but they didn't realize until Trunks told them.

I mean, you can say Piccolo was still weaker than Freeza at this point... but I prefer not to turn characters into morons... and I don't see why the author would be misleading us like that...

At this point both Piccolo and Vegeta have suggested they aren't as bad as what Trunks said. And Vegeta pretty much states that they aren't as terrible as Trunks said. So they are definitely below Trunks' timeline Androids.

That was about #19, not #20, which just helps prove #20 post > #19 post (but that's a different debate.)

We don't know where Trunks is placed in strength though. From his little skirmish against SSJ Goku it is clear that Goku outstrips him. So the order could easily be:

SSJ Goku > Androids > SSJ Trunks > Mecha Freeza

And we also don't know if SSJ Trunks beat Mecha Freeza at his full power either. So it is also a possibility that Mecha Freeza could be above SSJ Trunks at full power.

If Goku was that much stronger than Trunks, Trunks would've realized Goku was already stronger than the Androids, but he still made it sound like they need to train hard.

And back to Mecha Freeza > Trunks, yeah.. that's completely baseless... I'm not even trying to be rude, but there's no evidence for that. Trunks indirectly says he's stronger than FP Mecha Freeza and nothing goes against that..

Gero was facing side-ways to Goku, he should have enough peripheral vision to catch him out of the corner of his eye. Goku also screamed at Gero to stop it so I don't see why Gero wouldn't be aware of Goku.

It's possible, but still assumption. It seemed off guard to me anyway.

And if you really do wanna say that they're that much closer to the base saiyans than the Super Saiyans, the gap would be massive. Also, if their defense is amplified to the point where a Super Saiyan isn't one-shotting them, shouldn't they be able to tank an on-guard punch from a base saiyan?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Just going to post all of Trunks's quotes about the Future Androids in comparison to himself and in general:

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P2.3
Trunks: “3 years from this current era, on May 12th around 10:00 AM, a terrifying pair will appear on an island 9 kilometers to the southwest of South City…Monsters with tremendous power unlike anything in this world…”

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…
Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”

Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P17.3
Context: Trunks is in hospital after losing to the androids.
Trunks: “You were right… The gap between me and the androids was still huge…I think I’m lucky to have returned alive…”

Chapter: 348 (DBZ 154), P6.1
Context: after Piccolo says Super Saiyan Vegeta might beat No.17 and No.18
Trunks: “I-I was able to become a Super Saiyan too…B-but, I was absolutely no match for them…They’re stupendously strong…”

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Context: Trunks compares No.17 and No.18 in his timeline to the ones in the present
Trunks: “They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P10.3
Context: more comparing the future androids to the present ones
Trunks: “Wh-why has history changed this much?...The an-androids’ power wasn’t on so much of a different level…And there were only 2 of them…”

He says the difference between him and the Androids was huge in the very same battle where he fought them pretty well. I always attributed this to the Androids holding-back against Trunks, since he says he was lucky to have escaped from them.

[Hitiro]

That's after Trunks arrives back. When he first describes them to Goku, and Piccolo who over-hears them, he says the Androids have "power unlike anything in this world", which implies a big gap.

"Power unlike anything in this world" does not imply a big gap. It just means that their isn't a power like their in this world. If the androids are the strongest things in Trunks timeline and Trunks is weaker than them then there isn't a power on Earth like theirs.

There's not much of a difference between Android arc Trunks and the Androids, not Mecha arc Trunks. Mecha arc Trunks thinks the Androids are "monsters with power beyond imagination" or something like that.

When does Trunks say they have power beyond imagination? Turlast posted the quotes. All Trunks said was they were monsters with power unlike anything in this world. That just says that they are the strongest things on Earth. Not that they so powerful Trunks can't imagine it.

But think about it, how much of a dumbass would Piccolo have to be to wonder if his power is too strong for the guys who are stronger than SSJ Trunks if Piccolo himself is weaker than Freeza? Because to say Piccolo is pondering this possibility if he's even weaker than Freeza would mean Piccolo is just an idiot.

Not much of a dumbass if SSJ Trunks and Mecha Freeza weren't at full power during this time. For all we know Piccolo thought 50% Freeza was 100% Freeza and 75% SSJ Trunks was 100% SSJ Trunks?

Trunks told Freeza to come at him full power and was fully confident. I know most people use the whole "Trunks has no way of knowing how strong Freeza is!" excuse, but think about it like this:

Toriyama is simple minded.He wouldn't say "let's have Trunks make a cocky statement with no value, despite Trunks not even being cocky." It's just a way of showing that Trunks is just that much stronger than Freeza, and these new fearsome villains are even stronger than that.

It's not really an excuse. It's just another perspective. I agree that Mecha Freeza probably was 100% but that isn't a fact. We can't just say he was when we have no proof to back up the claim other than Trunks making a snide comment for Freeza to come at him at full power.

Also, Goku never actually says he didn't improve, just he spent a lot of time learning the technique, he also could've gotten a zenkai from Namek.

I didn't say he didn't improve. All I was saying was that Goku couldn't have gotten any stronger at this point because he mostly spent his time learning to teleport. If he is at 3 million and he gained 10,000 battle power there. He isn't really any stronger in my opinion. 10,000 isn't going to make such a drastic difference when we're dealing with characters in the millions.

But there's really no evidence for Freeza > Trunks, that's baseless, and makes no sense with Trunks telling Freeza and Cold to come at him full power.

There is really no evidence for Freeza and Cold coming at him at full power either. I don't believe that Freeza wasn't at full power when he attacked Trunks. But people can argue the former point is just as valid because there is nothing noting Freeza at full power anyway.

Not that he's wrong essentially, but I'm just not seeing how them being too strong can possibly be fathomed would be possible if he's weaker than Freeza.

Them being too strong for the Androids doesn't mean that Piccolo is too strong for Freeza. We don't know where these androids are in strength.

Everyone there can sense him, and if they knew he was weaker than Freeza, they should've caught on that the Androids are weaker than expected, but they didn't realize until Trunks told them.

Piccolo never said that the Androids were above Freeza anyway. He just said they were unthinkably strong. And no, they realized the Androids were weaker before Trunks told them. Both Piccolo and Vegeta made these comments before Trunks even arrived and both of these characters also thought that the Androids weren't as strong as Trunks made them out to be. More so with Vegeta who flat out says that they aren't as strong as what Trunks said compared to Piccolo just making assumptions.

I mean, you can say Piccolo was still weaker than Freeza at this point... but I prefer not to turn characters into morons... and I don't see why the author would be misleading us like that...

I don't see how it's turning characters into morons. The Androids can still be under Freeza and be a huge threat to the characters because Goku, at the beginning, would be the only one who could deal with them and if he died then there is nobody anywhere near Freeza's level to beat them.

At this point both Piccolo and Vegeta have suggested they aren't as bad as what Trunks said. And Vegeta pretty much states that they aren't as terrible as Trunks said. So they are definitely below Trunks' timeline Androids.

That was about #19, not #20, which just helps prove #20 post > #19 post (but that's a different debate.)

What are you on about? Why are you singling out characters now? If Vegeta says it about #19 it's equally the same for Gero. If Vegeta thinks an Android, who Trunks said should be incredibly strong, isn't anything like the rumours then Androids expectations > Current Androids. Whether it was just about #19 or not it is still dialogue about the Androids in general because both the Androids were supposed to be strong. Are you going to tell me that Gero buily #19 as an android much weaker than himself?

If Goku was that much stronger than Trunks, Trunks would've realized Goku was already stronger than the Androids, but he still made it sound like they need to train hard.

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P9.4
Trunks: “Knowing your strength, Goku, I have a little hope.”

Trunks pretty much thinks from Goku's strength that there is a chance for these Androids to be beat if he says alive. If these Androids were so much stronger than Trunks and Goku wasn't that much stronger than him I don't see why he would have hope.

And back to Mecha Freeza > Trunks, yeah.. that's completely baseless... I'm not even trying to be rude, but there's no evidence for that. Trunks indirectly says he's stronger than FP Mecha Freeza and nothing goes against that..

Trunks doesn't indirectly say he's stronger than 100% Mecha Freeza. He just tells him to go all out. Trunks would have no way of knowing how strong 100% Freeza was until he actually used 100% I suggest you go back to the Namek arc and check out when Goku thought Freeza was bluffing about only needing 50% of his power to beat Goku. It is clear Goku doesn't know how strong 100% Freeza would be here. Otherwise Goku would know that Freeza was not bluffing.

Also I suggest you jump to the fight with Cell, they didn't know how much power he had either until he used his full power.

It's possible, but still assumption. It seemed off guard to me anyway.

It was a pathetic off-guard attack if we compare it to any of the other off-guard attacks by characters with much bigger differences in ability.

And if you really do wanna say that they're that much closer to the base saiyans than the Super Saiyans, the gap would be massive. Also, if their defense is amplified to the point where a Super Saiyan isn't one-shotting them, shouldn't they be able to tank an on-guard punch from a base saiyan?

Being forced to stagger doesn't mean Dr. Gero didn't tank the punch. Durability and being knocked around are two different things. Are you saying Fat Boo didn't tank SSJ Trunks punch automatically even though he was caught off-guard? If another car pushes another and they both come out undamaged does the push have any bearing on durability? If you're punched in boxing and your guard is blown away did you not still tank the blow? That has no relevance on durability.

He says the difference between him and the Androids was huge in the very same battle where he fought them pretty well. I always attributed this to the Androids holding-back against Trunks, since he says he was lucky to have escaped from them.

Well, are we attributing Trunks saying he was absolutely no match for them when he initially became a SSJ or after at the point before he went back in time? Because obviously Goku initially becoming a SSJ is weaker than Boo arc SSJ Goku. Seems to me that Trunks is saying here that when he became a SSJ he was absolutely no match for them. And then later on his timeline he could fight them fairly well.

[FoolsGil]

I swear we had this discussion last month.

-Goku's Kaioken at 20 couldn't lay a finger on Freeza at 50%
-Piccolo with Nail's merger couldn't lay a finger on Freeza after his second form.
-Goku at SSJ (Base x 50) stood down Freeza at 100%
-Piccolo after 3 years training could fight and win against Android 20, which Goku and Vegeta need SSJ to fight.

Those are facts. Everything below this line is speculation.

Question 1-What Freeza threshold are the Androids at?
Important question because at mentioned before, Goku couldn't stop Freeza at 50%. But upon getting SSJ, could have killed Freeza at any point. We know that SSJ is base x 50. We know that Kaioken is base times Y. (Y in this case is 20, for the battle against Freeza). So there is a 30 increment gap where Freeza could have been, but we'll never know because SSJ auto jump to 50.

Question 2-Is Piccolo a match against a SSJ?
Piccolo could defeat the Androids 19 and 20, fact. Goku and Vegeta could defeat the Androids 19 and 20, fact. Now could Piccolo defeat or deal a draw to Goku or Vegeta? If the answer you have is yes, then the Androids are equal to Freeza at 100%. If the answer you have is no...

Question 3-What Freeza threshold is Piccolo at?
It took a SSJ power to thrash Freeza at 50%. It took a SSJ power to thrash the Androids. It took 3 years training for Piccolo to thrash the Androids, so logically, it would take 3 years training for Piccolo to thrash Freeza at 50%. There would be no way the Androids were weaker than Freeza's fourth form, because Goku with minimum Kaioken could destroy Freeza at a lower form, but needed SSJ to fight an Android. Piccolo doesn't have SSJ, but he has merged with another body and trained for 3 years after. It can be safe to assume that what he did to 20, he could do to Freeza at 50%-Maybe even 75%. So in conclusion, 19 and 20 are equal to Freeza at 50%.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Well, are we attributing Trunks saying he was absolutely no match for them when he initially became a SSJ or after at the point before he went back in time?

I don't think it's implied Trunks fought the Androids anytime before or after the battle that took place 3 yrs later. After he barely survived against the Androids, he was keen on traveling to the past in hopes of finding a way to defeat them. I doubt he'd tangle with them again knowing what's at stake.

Because obviously Goku initially becoming a SSJ is weaker than Boo arc SSJ Goku. Seems to me that Trunks is saying here that when he became a SSJ he was absolutely no match for them. And then later on his timeline he could fight them fairly well.

I think Trunks is just telling Piccolo that simply being a Super Saiyan doesn't really change anything. After all, Piccolo assumed Vegeta might be strong enough to beat them simply because he's a Super Saiyan. It wouldn't really make sense for him to be talking about the Androids in comparison to himself at different points. The way I see it, if he says he's absolutely no match for them, it's in general.