Hello. What is the meaning of the "canon"?

[Aoi]

I saw the big fight in the other message board and both guys kept talking about "canon". What is "canon" and why is it so important for dragon ball Z?

I'm sorry if this question angers anybody. I got the idea that it does from all the fights on the other message board after a person even said the word "canon".

Ill go read more of that fight, which was pretty funny.

[BrollysKin]

Canon means what is considered "true" in the dragonball universe. Usually it means anything written or drawn by Akira Toriyama himself. There is then filler which is created by television companies in order to both drag out the series and make it so the show doesn't catch up to the manga.

[desirecampbell]

"Canon" is a collection of works that are considered to be the "real thing". Some things are included, and others are excluded. For example, Shakespearian canon includes most of the plays we know in the forms we know today. Shakespearian canon excludes other versions of plays that contradict the version considered "true".


For Dragonball specifically, "canon" is thought of as one of two things: 1. "The manga is canon, everything else isn't" or 2. as a multi-tiered system.

The latter idea, a multi-level system, is (somewhat) debated as to what is considered "more canonical" than something else. Generally, A multi tiered canon system for DBZ looks like this:

The best way to think about 'canon' in DragonBall is to use a tiered structure (like Star Wars canon).

There are a series of 'levels'. Each level supersedes any information from a lower level that contradicts it. For instance, in the manga (level 1) Super Saiyan hair is a deep gold colour, but in the anime (level 4) it is nearly white - the manga's version is taken as "more canonical".

1. Kanzenban manga - re-edited, and fixed - better than original - by Toriyama himself. For example, Enma's sign says "welcome", not "wellcome".

2. tankobon manga - original work, but contains errors and omissions corrected in the Kanzenban.

3. Author notes - anything written by Toriyama about the series that is not included directly in the manga. For example, his notes about Saiyan hair colour.

4. Original Japanese Anime, based on manga - DragonBall, DragonBall Z, Trunks special - disregarding filler. This includes instances that are derived directly from the manga, but are changed somehow (like the SSj hair colour, Goku's gi colour, when Pilaf shows up, and the friggin' week that was the Freeza fight) - but it doesn't include instances of filler that are entirely new (see below).

5. Original Japanese Anime not based on manga, produced by Toei for the series - DB/DBZ filler, DragonBall GT, Bardock special, GT Special. This includes any animation made for the series, but not based on any direct manga counterpart. Like the Garlic Jr saga, the driving episode, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Krillin helping out at the Cell games. These events are meant to have happened in the series, but sometimes contradict higher levels of canon.

6. Original Japanese DB/DBZ movies - produced by Toei, but not meant to 'fit' into the series' storyline. These can show the mechanics of the dragonworld in more detail, but actual events should necessarily be taken as having happened.

7. Official guidebooks, databooks, artbooks, and other official merchandise - these products are based off of the manga, the anime (including filler), and the movies so they cannot be taken as as high a level of canon as what they are derived from.

8. Original Video Animation for video games, game shows, fire safety videos, commercials, etc. - produced by Toei, but absolutely not supposed to represent the events of the story in any way.

9. Games (video, card, board, etc) - nothing taken from any game-based mechanics or story should be taken as literal to the story proper.


--------
You'll notice that I specifically mentioned the original Japanese animation there, and no other country's dubs. Replications of the original animation and script should never be taken as canon. The only time a dub is ever taken as any kind of authority is when it is equivalent to the original animation.

What is canon, and what isn't - these debates stem from discussions about what "really happened" in the Dragonball story. Like, if Future Trunks was ever taught the Masenko (like we see him use in movie . Is that "canon"? Does Trunks really know the Masenko, or is it just something thrown into the movie for no reason?

Similarly, one of the daizenshuu says that Tenshinhan is an alien (or at least, descended from aliens). Whether that is "canon" or not is another debatable subject.


A canon system is important in DBZ because there's a lot of inconsistency, on the other hand canon isn't really that important because there's a lot of inconsistency.

[Taku128]

DBZ movie one needs to be put on the same level as filler, since he later appears in his own filler saga. Also possibley the Coola movies because he makes a short appearence in GT. Also, who exactly was it that desided what's most canon, what's least, ect?

[BrollysKin]

Well since videogames have nothing to do with Toriyama, thats obviously bottom. Since I would guess Toriyama has more contact with Toei thats why their canon level is higher. Of course the top is the manga itself, created directly by Toriyama himself.

Thats how I take the system to work.

[desirecampbell]

DBZ movie one needs to be put on the same level as filler, since he later appears in his own filler saga. Also possibley the Coola movies because he makes a short appearence in GT. Also, who exactly was it that desided what's most canon, what's least, ect?

The canon system I've posted above works on separating different productions from others. Movie 1 shouldn't be taken and put into another category simply because it belongs with the other movies. We can't put the Bardock special up to the level of the manga just because Bardock's in the manga too.

And noone "decided" this was the proper canon system. This is merely a pretty good one, that seems to work out well.

[Olivier Hague]

And noone "decided" this was the proper canon system.

Well... It's yours.

This is merely a pretty good one, that seems to work out well.

You're so humble. ^^;
And there are several problems with it...

[desirecampbell]

And noone "decided" this was the proper canon system.

Well... It's yours.

Yeah, but I didn't want to say "me" like I'm the big man on campus and act like any of it's "official" or anything.

This is merely a pretty good one, that seems to work out well.

You're so humble. ^^;
And there are several problems with it...

Like...?

[Olivier Hague]

And there are several problems with it...

Like...?

I already tried to discuss several of them with you, but it didn't do much good.
Oh, well.

Garlic Jr. (movie -> "level 6") later appears in "Dragon Ball Z" filler ("level 5"). And like somebody else pointed out, Coora (movies -> "level 6") later appears in "Dragon Ball GT" ("level 5"). Also, some guidebooks are based on the manga, so you can't just claim they should be below the manga and the anime.
To which you generally reply that you're simply separating different productions from others, so movies are all in the same category, and same thing for the guides. But in practice, they should be considered individually.
1) That didn't stop you from dividing Tôei's anime into three different categories.
2) What's the point in making a relatively complex multi-level "canon system" if the different categories/levels don't mean much in the end and everything should be looked at individually?

Then there's the fact that official guides can sometimes be more reliable than the material they're based on (OMG!), when the author is involved and inconsistencies are ironed out.

And finally, some stuff simply doesn't make sense, like mentioning the original video (?) animation for commercials and such ("level 8")...
I mean, you go as far as to plainly state that they're "absolutely not supposed to represent the events of the story in any way"... If they're simply not canon at all, why include them in a "canon system"?
Sure, they could be seen as the "border": they're just the lowest level, as they're... well, "not canon".
But wait! What's that?

9. Games (video, card, board, etc)

So games are even less canon than stuff that isn't canon at all? Wow.

Sorry, but the whole thing seems quite a bit arbitrary...

[VegettoEX]

This thread is not for Olivier Hague and desirecampbell to get into another pointless canon-logic argument. I will not hesitate to ban you both, permanently.

Politely, appropriately, and effectively answer the question without your own bullshit histrionics.

Aoi, don't feel bad for asking the question, though! That's how we learn things .

[Aoi]

wow Thank you.
This is very interesting. Was this idea invented in USA?
I have heard of something similar for fans in Argentina and back home in Japan (well, really Argentina is my home now ). What I'm guessing is that "canon" means the dragon ball universe or "the real story". Right?

At first I didnt understand the meaning of "canon" until -desirecampbell- put that very helpful "order of canon".
But its common sense to say that the video games are not meant to be part of the story or the tv ads either.

In Japan, everyone sees the manga story (or universe) and the anime story to be 2 differerent stories. Let me explain:
This is true for about every anime that exists. I understand that most anime is written from a manga, but they have the choice to change the story as they wish. For example the GTO anime and the GTO manga has many differences and a very different ending to both. None is considered the "real version" because they are viewed different from the start.
The same is real for the new Saint Seiya chapters that were not written in the manga and yet continues the story in the anime. When a company like TOEI buys the manga right from an author, they not only buy it to allow them to make it but they also buy the right to continue or change any part they wish.

Like the last Superman movie was based on the comic book but fans here see it as like manga and anime as the movie made many changes (having a different director will ususally mean a new way to view the story)

As for Dragon ball, there are 2 stories in Japan:

1- The Manga (Dragon ball) which starts with Goku on earth and ends with the battle against Majin Buu.

and

2-Anime (Dragon ball, Dragon ball Z, Dragon ball GT and specials)- from Goku on earth until Goku dies in the final fight against the Dragons.

The Garlic Junior part of dragon ball is usually ignored not because it is not part of the manga but because Movie 1 is impossible to happen in the anime story (I forgot why)
Really what TOEI decides that something is meant to be part of the story (unless it is impossible to happen, like many characters being alive when they should be dead). The only movies that fit into the anime are Movie 9 and the last one they made. The only thing was that Movie 9 was the only movie written to fit into the anime (it is very specific).
This is very similar to the new Saint Seiya movies that are meant to continue the manga, unlike the past ones which have too many errors which make it impossible to happen.

I made it more complicated than it really was.
Animes are made knowing that they are part of a different story, even if they chose to make it very similar to the manga.

But its interesting how different fans from USA see this. I had never heard of "high universe" or "low universe" in my life.

[Conan the SSJ]

In my opinion, canon in the DragonBall world is a matter of point of view, it's your own interpretation! At least when it comes to the anime universe, the manga universe seems to be a different story as some will say: "If it wasn't written by Toriyama, it ain't canon." If that's how it must be for the manga, then so be it. But c'mon for the anime, while based off the manga, it isn't supposed to be a direct carbon-copy. Interpretation, people, interpretation! With the anime canon, there is no official canon; it's ambiguous. Considering the inconsistencies all around and about, I'm hoping you all agree, as it will save 10 pages worth of mind cringing jibber-jabber.

My point of view on the anime "canon", I've already made clear a thousand times and it's how I see it, I'm not telling other people that's how it should be, though that's how it could be IMO. If anyone wishes to know the reasons for how I see the continuity, feel free to PM me, as I don't wish on getting into mumbo-jumbo public arguments until I'm either banned or extremely hated by some member I once thought was cool.

Conan has spoken, the rant is over.

I'll say this once so I'll be done with it. This is how I, from MY point of view, see the anime canon; a separate universe from that of the manga canon. Please, no arguments or debating, I'm in no way saying this is how everyone should view it, I'm just pointing out this is how I view it.

Bardock Special.
Original DragonBall Series -- Episodes 1 - 153.
Dead Zone Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 1 - 117.
Trunks Special.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 118 - 125 (till the point where the screen freezes as the 3 years quickly pass by).
Cooler's Revenge Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 125 (from the last minute of this episode when the 3 years have passed) - 194.
Bojack Unbound Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 195 - 288.
Wrath of the Dragon Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 289 - 291.
DragonBall GT Series -- Episodes 1 - 64 (right up to the final 8 minute sequence, culminating with Goku departing with Shenlong).
Goku Jr. Special.
DragonBall GT Series -- Episode 64 (The final 8 minutes, 100 years later).

Regarding my feelings with the Daizenshuu, I feel that they help support the issues that movies 1 and 5 should be in "anime canon" along with movies 9 and 13, but really that's about all I count on when it comes to my point of view with the Daizenshuu. When I wanna say why I count GT in the anime canon, I simply say "Hey, Toriyama had some involvement (albeit in character designing) and supports the series". I'm pissed as it is at the "GT Perfect Files", as it's basically the main reason for everyone that doesn't count GT in the anime to do so; because it states "GT takes place 5 years after Z", which brings up so much BS not worth discussing here.

As you all know, I'm an anime purist. So all things considered, I'm pretty biased at this point. I guess when it comes to manga canon, I'd place the Bardock special at the very start, then the Dr. Slump manga, and the entire run of the DragonBall (and Z in Viz's latter translated portion) manga. No in-betweens, no afters, this is the way I view the manga canon/universe...very different from how I view the anime adaptation.

What you have all just seen is my point of view, seeing as I've admitted as such, you've no reason to make a big arguing fuss to try and convert me to another way of thinking regarding how the series should look.

[desirecampbell]

Hague, we've been through this before. But for Aoi's benifit, and not yours, I'll respond quickly.

The canon levels are separated into groups, not specific productions from the same group (that is, all movies are together, not each movie separately - all the manga together, not a separate level for each chapter).

The point of the canon 'hierarchy' is to show how much weight each productions type should be given based on what it is, not what it's content is.

I'm fed-up with trying to explain it to you, Hague, and Mike's fed-up with listening to it. If you must continue this discussion, feel free to PM me.

[Olivier Hague]

In Japan, everyone sees the manga story (or universe) and the anime story to be 2 differerent stories.

Yeah, it saves a lot of trouble to think of it like that.

[Domon]

wow Thank you.
This is very interesting. Was this idea invented in USA?

The word "canon" is from a Greek word meaning "rule/measure/standard", and then used to refer to the laws of various religions(mostly Christainity). Now, the word has been reused for popular culture, mostly to refer to what is the "correct" or "true" version or aspects of things.

I should note that not everyone here thinks of "canon" as of "high universe or low universe". Some do think of it as just "The manga version and the anime version", as you've described.

[BrollysKin]

Hague, we've been through this before. But for Aoi's benifit, and not yours, I'll respond quickly.

The canon levels are separated into groups, not specific productions from the same group (that is, all movies are together, not each movie separately - all the manga together, not a separate level for each chapter).

The point of the canon 'hierarchy' is to show how much weight each productions type should be given based on what it is, not what it's content is.

I'm fed-up with trying to explain it to you, Hague, and Mike's fed-up with listening to it. If you must continue this discussion, feel free to PM me.

In case you can't read he is mad at you as well.

[Maphisto86]

wow Thank you.
This is very interesting. Was this idea invented in USA?

The word "canon" is from a Greek word meaning "rule/measure/standard", and then used to refer to the laws of various religions(mostly Christainity). Now, the word has been reused for popular culture, mostly to refer to what is the "correct" or "true" version or aspects of things.

I should note that not everyone here thinks of "canon" as of "high universe or low universe". Some do think of it as just "The manga version and the anime version", as you've described.

Heh, I understood for a long time what "canon" meant but I never really knew where the origin of the word 'canon' came from but I geuss it's easy to find out with the web. Thanks for the lesson Domon!

[Mystic Jack]

A simple question turned into a huge topic about dragonball canon. Wow just, wow. I'm glad Aoi got his question answered though.

[Mr.Piccolo]

If you want to know what canon is, why don't you just pm Vegeta4

Just kidding... the easiest explination for canon would be to say everything within the 42 (?) volume run by Toriyama (and to be extreme about it, the original version that was not translated).

-rick

[SaiyaMel]

Anything that covers these -

1. Kanzenban manga - re-edited, and fixed - better than original - by Toriyama himself. For example, Enma's sign says "welcome", not "wellcome".

2. tankobon manga - original work, but contains errors and omissions corrected in the Kanzenban.

3. Author notes - anything written by Toriyama about the series that is not included directly in the manga. For example, his notes about Saiyan hair colour.

will always be the ultimate "canon" Dragonball in my book.. i am also one of those fans who looks at pretty much everything else as on the level of fanfiction.

Don't get me wrong though - there's some great stuff relating to the series that wasn't produced by Mr Toriyama!