Hello. What is the meaning of the "canon"?

Folken-sama · Post by **Folken-sama** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:45 am

desirecampbell wrote:The point of the canon 'hierarchy' is to show how much weight each productions type should be given based on what it is, not what it's content is.

But the problem in your classification is that databooks supervised by Toriyama ("what it is") go to the bottom because of "what is the content" (some are including anime content).

Post by **desirecampbell** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:03 pm

Folken-sama wrote:
desirecampbell wrote:The point of the canon 'hierarchy' is to show how much weight each productions type should be given based on what it is, not what it's content is.
But the problem in your classification is that databooks supervised by Toriyama ("what it is") go to the bottom because of "what is the content" (some are including anime content).

The guidebooks are lower than the movies because the guidbooks (as a whole) are derived from the manga, the anime, filler, and the movies -so it can't be taken as more accurate than what it's derived from.

If certain content in the guidebooks can be verified with higher-level canon, or make sense and can be considered "true", then that specific information is true, because it can be rationalized outside of its publication. Something in the guidebooks isn't assumed to be as true as the manga "just because it's a guidebook".

That's the point of the canon hierarchy: how much weight should a random piece of information be given? If it is unverifiable, seemingly random, piece of data that can't be verified or disproven (specifically) from any other source, the weight it's given depends on where it comes from. If it's in the manga, it's given a lot of weight, if it's in the anime, less. If it's in a movie, even less. If it's from a book based on those things, it must be considered less because it's derived from them. Commercials, video games, cards, that weird fire-safety video - should be given very little weight.

The canon hierarchy shows what production types are generally considered more reliable than others. Any specific content should be verified with other sources, looked at skeptically, reasoned against the way the Dragonworld seems to work, and have its canon-ocity decided on a case-by-case basis.

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:44 pm

Conan the SSJ wrote:In my opinion, canon in the DragonBall world is a matter of point of view, it's your own interpretation! At least when it comes to the anime universe, the manga universe seems to be a different story as some will say: "If it wasn't written by Toriyama, it ain't canon." If that's how it must be for the manga, then so be it. But c'mon for the anime, while based off the manga, it isn't supposed to be a direct carbon-copy. Interpretation, people, interpretation! With the anime canon, there is no official canon; it's ambiguous. Considering the inconsistencies all around and about, I'm hoping you all agree, as it will save 10 pages worth of mind cringing jibber-jabber.

My point of view on the anime "canon", I've already made clear a thousand times and it's how I see it, I'm not telling other people that's how it should be, though that's how it could be IMO. If anyone wishes to know the reasons for how I see the continuity, feel free to PM me, as I don't wish on getting into mumbo-jumbo public arguments until I'm either banned or extremely hated by some member I once thought was cool.

Conan has spoken, the rant is over.

Conan the SSJ wrote:I'll say this once so I'll be done with it. This is how I, from MY point of view, see the anime canon; a separate universe from that of the manga canon. Please, no arguments or debating, I'm in no way saying this is how everyone should view it, I'm just pointing out this is how I view it.

Bardock Special.
Original DragonBall Series -- Episodes 1 - 153.
Dead Zone Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 1 - 117.
Trunks Special.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 118 - 125 (till the point where the screen freezes as the 3 years quickly pass by).
Cooler's Revenge Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 125 (from the last minute of this episode when the 3 years have passed) - 194.
Bojack Unbound Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 195 - 288.
Wrath of the Dragon Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 289 - 291.
DragonBall GT Series -- Episodes 1 - 64 (right up to the final 8 minute sequence, culminating with Goku departing with Shenlong).
Goku Jr. Special.
DragonBall GT Series -- Episode 64 (The final 8 minutes, 100 years later).

Regarding my feelings with the Daizenshuu, I feel that they help support the issues that movies 1 and 5 should be in "anime canon" along with movies 9 and 13, but really that's about all I count on when it comes to my point of view with the Daizenshuu. When I wanna say why I count GT in the anime canon, I simply say "Hey, Toriyama had some involvement (albeit in character designing) and supports the series". I'm pissed as it is at the "GT Perfect Files", as it's basically the main reason for everyone that doesn't count GT in the anime to do so; because it states "GT takes place 5 years after Z", which brings up so much BS not worth discussing here.

As you all know, I'm an anime purist. So all things considered, I'm pretty biased at this point. I guess when it comes to manga canon, I'd place the Bardock special at the very start, then the Dr. Slump manga, and the entire run of the DragonBall (and Z in Viz's latter translated portion) manga. No in-betweens, no afters, this is the way I view the manga canon/universe...very different from how I view the anime adaptation.

What you have all just seen is my point of view, seeing as I've admitted as such, you've no reason to make a big arguing fuss to try and convert me to another way of thinking regarding how the series should look.

This was great to read and I agree with you 100%. There is no "real" version or official of the dragon ball universe. The manga is not superior to the anime or the other way around.
I just went to a dragon ball site that showed all the super saiyan transformations and on top of super saiyan 4 it said "not canon/never existed"

For something that is not at all official and is measured by the taste of every fan, saying that something is "not canon" as if it was the end of the discussion seems very arrogant and ignorant to me. (It makes it as if one persons taste is superior to another person's taste)

I was reading the other fight about canon and I think the idea for canon should not go past just discussion and individual taste, it should never be spoken as "the real universe".
The dragon ball universe is very complex so it would be very interesting to discuss it. But I thought it was very funny to hear about people fighting about such shows or games (vegeta4 was very funny about the Sonic games being canon

. That was just very odd.)

And Conan the SSJ, I really liked your idea of canon. If you were to ignore how the people reacted to Gohan in the first few episodes of dragon ball Z then the first movie can easily take place in the saga.
Also making and excuse for Goku not going super saiyan in the fight against Cooler would also add that to the universe. (Although movie 5 was my least favorite for me, I loved movie 6). The reason it works is because it does not make it impossible for it to happen, unlike movies 2, 3,4, 6,7, 8,10,11, and 12.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:11 am

Aoi wrote: This was great to read and I agree with you 100%. There is no "real" version or official of the dragon ball universe. The manga is not superior to the anime or the other way around.
I just went to a dragon ball site that showed all the super saiyan transformations and on top of super saiyan 4 it said "not canon/never existed"
For something that is not at all official and is measured by the taste of every fan, saying that something is "not canon" as if it was the end of the discussion seems very arrogant and ignorant to me. (It makes it as if one persons taste is superior to another person's taste)

I was reading the other fight about canon and I think the idea for canon should not go past just discussion and individual taste, it should never be spoken as "the real universe".

I quoted all this Aoi because I think it's the best post I've seen made here by anyone in a long time. You rock.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:46 am

Jerseymilk wrote:
Aoi wrote: This was great to read and I agree with you 100%. There is no "real" version or official of the dragon ball universe. The manga is not superior to the anime or the other way around.
I just went to a dragon ball site that showed all the super saiyan transformations and on top of super saiyan 4 it said "not canon/never existed"
For something that is not at all official and is measured by the taste of every fan, saying that something is "not canon" as if it was the end of the discussion seems very arrogant and ignorant to me. (It makes it as if one persons taste is superior to another person's taste)

I was reading the other fight about canon and I think the idea for canon should not go past just discussion and individual taste, it should never be spoken as "the real universe".
I quoted all this Aoi because I think it's the best post I've seen made here by anyone in a long time. You rock.

I'll second that. Long live SSj4!

Steven Perry · Post by **Steven Perry** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:31 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:
Jerseymilk wrote:
Aoi wrote: This was great to read and I agree with you 100%. There is no "real" version or official of the dragon ball universe. The manga is not superior to the anime or the other way around.
I just went to a dragon ball site that showed all the super saiyan transformations and on top of super saiyan 4 it said "not canon/never existed"
For something that is not at all official and is measured by the taste of every fan, saying that something is "not canon" as if it was the end of the discussion seems very arrogant and ignorant to me. (It makes it as if one persons taste is superior to another person's taste)

I was reading the other fight about canon and I think the idea for canon should not go past just discussion and individual taste, it should never be spoken as "the real universe".
I quoted all this Aoi because I think it's the best post I've seen made here by anyone in a long time. You rock.
I'll second that. Long live SSj4!

I'll third that.

It's my belief that all Dragonball episodes should be considered canon.* Saying that an episode is just 'fiiler' is a lazy-ass way of answering a question (if the question involves an episode done by Toei).

* Well, disregarding GT of course. And the movies. And the Garlic Junior saga.

Pedro The Hutt · Post by **Pedro The Hutt** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:36 pm

It's much like with Star Wars, even though there you do have officially dictated levels of canon, ultimately the fans still pick and match and pretty much create their own version or ideas of what REALLY happened in the wide and vast Star Wars universe.

So in the end it'd be silly to make official DB canon because the fans are more stubborn than whatever power that might be has to say. (So I can still ignore GT's existance if I want to! XD *runs for cover*)

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:50 pm

Pedro The Hutt wrote: (So I can still ignore GT's existance if I want to! XD *runs for cover*)

Ignoring it won't make it go away!

Pedro The Hutt · Post by **Pedro The Hutt** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:59 pm

True. =D And I'll just find out about GT when playing through Sparking! Neo on the Wii. Fair enough? XD

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:01 pm

Pedro The Hutt wrote:True. =D And I'll just find out about GT when playing through Sparking! Neo on the Wii. Fair enough? XD

Yup! And if you do watch the show, then for the love of God, don't watch the FUNimation dub. It will make your ears and brain implode upon themselves.

BrollysKin · Post by **BrollysKin** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:07 pm

I actually like the FUNI dub. I can see why some people don't but I think it is a decent change to the japanese version. (please don't kill me it's just my opinion)

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:23 pm

BrollysKin wrote:I actually like the FUNI dub. I can see why some people don't but I think it is a decent change to the japanese version. (please don't kill me it's just my opinion)

As do I.

Back on topic of canon, I'm assuming Toriyama's opinion on GT isn't like how supposedly Mr. Watsuki hates Samurai X Reflection.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:18 pm

Well, overall, I guess they did as good a job as they could with it, and there are some pretty good parts. But whatever.

Super Sonic wrote: Back on topic of canon, I'm assuming Toriyama's opinion on GT isn't like how supposedly Mr. Watsuki hates Samurai X Reflection.

Interesting (RK Fan, right here). Isn't that the third OVA where Kenshin dies, or something?

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:23 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote: Interesting (RK Fan, right here). Isn't that the third OVA where Kenshin dies, or something?

Agghhh! Spoilers?! Damn you! *shakes fist*

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:27 pm

Doesn't matter about spoilers, the thing is a piece of crap anyway. And yes Watsuki criticized the third OAV, stating that it wasn't at all the direction he took with his manga and didn't like it going that root. Personally, I think that OAV just undermines every single element Kenshin and the original series stood for, so I don't blame the author for being peeved.

Anyway....back on topic....I think you should just like what you like and at the end of the day, I really could care less what parts of DB Toriyama "personally" authored himself. The anime was good enough for him, so it's good enough for me.

Sebastian (SB) · Post by **Sebastian (SB)** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:27 pm

BrollysKin wrote:I actually like the FUNI dub. I can see why some people don't but I think it is a decent change to the japanese version. (please don't kill me it's just my opinion)

I agree. Growing up with FUNi's dub is one of my reasons that has led me to the fandom. Now, more recently, I just prefer to watch the original since I've had my fill of FUNi's dub over at CN.

Folken-sama · Post by **Folken-sama** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:38 pm

desirecampbell wrote: The guidebooks are lower than the movies because the guidbooks (as a whole) are derived from the manga, the anime, filler, and the movies -so it can't be taken as more accurate than what it's derived from.

But still you're not taking into account the author, who should be above all concideration (that is, the medium).

Toriyama did also write some anime filler, do we still concider it "false" just because it's the anime ?

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:53 pm

Folken-sama wrote:Toriyama did also write some anime filler

What are you referring to?

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:56 pm

Folken-sama wrote:Toriyama did also write some anime filler

Are you talking about times when Toriyama wrote something and the anime expanded on it like with the other Kaioshin or Bardock?

-rick

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:02 pm

Folken-sama wrote:
desirecampbell wrote: The guidebooks are lower than the movies because the guidbooks (as a whole) are derived from the manga, the anime, filler, and the movies -so it can't be taken as more accurate than what it's derived from.
But still you're not taking into account the author, who should be above all concideration (that is, the medium).

Toriyama did also write some anime filler, do we still concider it "false" just because it's the anime ?

Toriyama didn't write the guidebooks. If he did, they'd be 'as canon' as the manga itself.

And Toriyama didn't write filler. He did design some things used in filler (like Bardock and his crew, some stuff from early GT) but that doesn't make it 'more canon'. He did designs for movies too (I can't remember which), that doesn't mean these movies now 'fit in' the story proper.