Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
ShadowWolf87 wrote:The explanation for the form is that it's what happens when someone goes Super Saiyan having mastered God Ki. Which is exactly what I just said.
People need to stop trying to make it needlessly complex.
But Super Saiyan God SS is stronger than Super Saiyan God, while Super Saiyan with God power from BoG isn't.
Nowhere in the film or in official material is this ever remotely implied. It is literally Super Saiyan 1 using the power of Super Saiyan God, nothing more and nothing less. This is explicitly stated.
Spoiler:
The form is described as an overwhelming power the world has never seen before so at the very least he's above 70% Beerus.So the new form is indeed stronger than SSJG
Saiyan007 wrote:The form is described as an overwhelming power the world has never seen before so at the very least he's above 70% Beerus.So the new form is indeed stronger than SSJG
You're showing me an incredibly vague statement from a magazine advertisement, and even if I took that statement at face value, Goku never went above 80% while in his SSG form. I'm citing actual (and fairly indubitable) dialogue from the film - namely that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, as its name implies, is the initial Super Saiyan transformation using the power of Super Saiyan God. Intrinsically it doesn't even appear to be vastly different from the SSG-absorbed SS1 in BoG, other than the fact that Goku has actually mastered his usage of God ki now.
There is no indication whatsoever that SSGSS in itself is actually more powerful than SSG; it's little more than an alternate method for Goku to reach the full strength of this "god" level without requiring another ritual. If Goku received any boost in power at all, it was likely from his training with Whis.
From what I understand despite being GT tier Frieza still doesn't pose nearly as much of a threat to Goku and Vegeta as Meta Cooler was in his movie. Cooler will always be cooler!
Yournickk wrote:
And a much more important question. Why would Goku be excited about meeting and fighting Uub in the end of DBZ? Uub is at Kid Buu's level. Goku knew about Beerus, Whis, and SSJ God Vegeta years before the end of DBZ but he is really excited to meet and fight such a weak opponent?
I think Goku was happy to fight Uub because he waited years for Buu to reborn as Uub and he wanted train Uub to become stronger. Goku was happy that he would have his own student to train. Uub got pretty strong when he got pissed off and Goku didn't become SSj when fighting him. Goku not using normal SSj anymore can explain why he fights in his base form now most of the time.
Barunks wrote:From what I understand despite being GT tier Freeza still doesn't pose nearly as much of a threat to Goku and Vegeta as Meta Cooler was in his movie. Cooler will always be cooler!
Actually, Freeza was stronger than either of them alone. Goku had to use his head and exploit Freeza's form burning through stamina in order to gain the advantage.
"I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting the idea that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It’s when you know you’re licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what." - Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird (1960)
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” - Nelson Mandela
Coola is alright, but Freeza is a much developed villain in my opinion. Funimation's dub help give Coola more personality to his character but we already had Coola return in the past. I don't want any past villains to return again and I was okay with Freeza coming back since Goku hasn't fought him since Namek.
Hellspawn28 wrote:Coola is alright, but Freeza is a much developed villain in my opinion. Funimation's dub help give Coola more personality to his character but we already had Coola return in the past. I don't want any past villains to return again and I was okay with Freeza coming back since Goku hasn't fought him since Namek.
Technically if he were in this movie it would be his first and only canon appearance. But I doubt they're at all interested in making a movie villain canon and causing confusion as a result.
"I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting the idea that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It’s when you know you’re licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what." - Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird (1960)
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” - Nelson Mandela
I would personally love Cooler to appear with Broly as his power. While Goku and Vegeta deal with Broly, Gohan and the others would have to fight Cooler.
Gohan: Yeah I'll drop the ball again, but father will be amazing. I hear Vegeta will be great too.
Gohan: Please come see Fukkatsu no F in theaters.
miguelnuva1 wrote:I would personally love Cooler to appear with Broly as his power. While Goku and Vegeta deal with Broly, Gohan and the others would have to fight Cooler.
We kinda had that in Shin Budokai 2...sorta. Broly and Cooler were together under Babidi.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Gohan: Yeah I'll drop the ball again, but father will be amazing. I hear Vegeta will be great too.
Gohan: Please come see Fukkatsu no F in theaters.
miguelnuva1 wrote:I would personally love Cooler to appear with Broly as his power. While Goku and Vegeta deal with Broly, Gohan and the others would have to fight Cooler.
We kinda had that in Shin Budokai 2...sorta. Broly and Cooler were together under Babidi.
I totally know that you're joking, but...
Spoiler:
Gohan didn't drop the ball at all in this movie. He'd been slacking in his training, sure, but when it came down to him doing his part against the Freeza force, he did way more than his share. Freeza just happened to be way out of the leagues of anyone who wasn't sporting God energy by this point.
Gohan: Yeah I'll drop the ball again, but father will be amazing. I hear Vegeta will be great too.
Gohan: Please come see Fukkatsu no F in theaters.
miguelnuva1 wrote:I would personally love Cooler to appear with Broly as his power. While Goku and Vegeta deal with Broly, Gohan and the others would have to fight Cooler.
We kinda had that in Shin Budokai 2...sorta. Broly and Cooler were together under Babidi.
I totally know that you're joking, but...
Spoiler:
Gohan didn't drop the ball at all in this movie. He'd been slacking in his training, sure, but when it came down to him doing his part against the Freeza force, he did way more than his share. Freeza just happened to be way out of the leagues of anyone who wasn't sporting God energy by this point.
I don't want to argue cause I don't think you'd like that. Let's just say that in my humble opinion, fighting those guys is the equivalent of having Goku and Vegeta step on some ants. It's beneath them. So far beneath them it's silly. I can't imagine even First Appearance Freeza having a problem dispatching these guys. It's so far beneath even his level. We even see Bardock plow through them.
I also don't only mean just as a fighter. I also mean as a character. What does he do now that he's a parent? I don't know. Does he go to college? What does he major in? What is his ideal career choices? I don't know. Why? Cause they don't give a shit about it. We hear that slacking off training bit every time (ironically a Bulma blog said he'd do some training I think), but is that gonna build up to something? No. It's just pointing out the same thing over and over again. It'd be like if they picked on Vegeta and said "You gonna let the bad guy get stronger again and whip your ass?" and never stopped. What is the point of bringing it up every time, or him slowly seemingly weakening over time. Is this gonna build up to something? Is this gonna lead up to some form of character development? No. It's more reason to push em out of the way further and further. May as well sit out with Goten, Trunks, and Boo. He's about as important as they are, that being...zilch. I'm personally of the opinion of, if you're not interested in developing older characters, phase them out. Don't keep them around and move on to better things. Just leave everything to Goku, Vegeta, Beerus, and Whis. That's about all who matter.
Now let me say I don't want to go on a tangent and would rather not drown the thread in negativity about this sore subject. I merely made a joke just for jokes sake, and to leave it at that. I'd rather not argue on this thread about it so things can be relatively positive. Through notes I suppose or another thread could continue said discussion. In fact I'm sure those kind of threads do exist.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Because, with an ensemble cast (that already had to be cut down to give the remaining cast a bit of focus) for what's essentially an action/adventure story with humor elements, we really don't have time to give a crap about Gohan's electives at Degrassi and why Eraser has suddenly started spreading Videl's nudes around the school just before the big dance-off next week with the kids from Dawson's Creek. Besides, you already know how that one turns out in the end.
Also...
Spoiler:
...it was explained, by Freeza to Shisame, that Gohan could pretty much take out the entire Freeza force as if they were ants. There was a specific strategy at play as to why he didn't do just what you're suggesting. If Freeza hadn't returned to Earth being so hardcore that you'd need God Ki to stand up to him, I'm sure Gohan could've taken Freeza, too. Bulma was sure as heck banking on it when she was talking smack to Freeza.
If anything, Gohan pretty much did not only what he was supposed to do, but he also picked up the slack for his friends when that strategy started getting a little bit difficult and tiring. Freeza zipping in so fast and about killing Gohan that nobody even knew what happened until Freeza was back in his little pod thingie isn't really anyone's fault for not catching it. That moment was written as to show off a small sample of Freeza's power compared to everyone else.
And that's the author actually putting some logic to it. He could've just wrote this by the seat of his pants instead (like he's known for) and forced us all to just enjoy it in the moment or not enjoy it at all.
I'm not trying to say that what Gohan does in his daily life is an invalid thing to wonder about, but there's a definite focus on a movie called Resurrection "F" and it's certainly not ten minutes of Gohan in the student union having a Kevin Smith-like dialog on that time he mistook his USB drive for a Hoi Poi Capsule and threw his homework into the parking lot while unloading an entire car into his pocket.
Kendamu wrote:Because, with an ensemble cast (that already had to be cut down to give the remaining cast a bit of focus) for what's essentially an action/adventure story with humor elements, we really don't have time to give a crap about Gohan's electives at Degrassi and why Eraser has suddenly started spreading Videl's nudes around the school just before the big dance-off next week with the kids from Dawson's Creek. Besides, you already know how that one turns out in the end.
Also...
Spoiler:
...it was explained, by Freeza to Shisame, that Gohan could pretty much take out the entire Freeza force as if they were ants. There was a specific strategy at play as to why he didn't do just what you're suggesting. If Freeza hadn't returned to Earth being so hardcore that you'd need God Ki to stand up to him, I'm sure Gohan could've taken Freeza, too. Bulma was sure as heck banking on it when she was talking smack to Freeza.
If anything, Gohan pretty much did not only what he was supposed to do, but he also picked up the slack for his friends when that strategy started getting a little bit difficult and tiring. Freeza zipping in so fast and about killing Gohan that nobody even knew what happened until Freeza was back in his little pod thingie isn't really anyone's fault for not catching it. That moment was written as to show off a small sample of Freeza's power compared to everyone else.
And that's the author actually putting some logic to it. He could've just wrote this by the seat of his pants instead (like he's known for) and forced us all to just enjoy it in the moment or not enjoy it at all.
I'm not trying to say that what Gohan does in his daily life is an invalid thing to wonder about, but there's a definite focus on a movie called Resurrection "F" and it's certainly not ten minutes of Gohan in the student union having a Kevin Smith-like dialog on that time he mistook his USB drive for a Hoi Poi Capsule and threw his homework into the parking lot while unloading an entire car into his pocket.
Because with an ensemble cast, that means we can't ever know just what the hell he even does. If we can have brief moment with Krillin, we can have for like a minute Gohan say "I'm studying to be so and so...or I'm looking to become so and so." BOOM instant answer and understanding of what's next for em. I ain't asking for a shit ton of scenes. Just a little progression. I ain't asking for a fuckin school drama. I'm asking to know what the fuck he even wants to do. A scholar is very vague. Not only that but he's a parent so what does he do for a living. Does he got to college? What job is he after? Does he have a job? I don't know cause apparently we can't even have a throw away line to explain what's up. It's like if I said I wanna get into politics, and then not say anything about what position I'm after. Seriously a throw away line could even add some growth or understanding.
Power wise again I don't care if they mention he could crush everyone, that just makes it more apparent the whole thing is stupid. I get why it was done too, but that does not make it justifiable overall. We get told the no training thing which is understandable, but it's become a joke at this point. It's not building up to anything, it's just pointing fingers at someone for being a slacker in a action series. It'd be like if we said "Hey Freeza ya gonna train for another 6 month's, and then forget to work out your previous weakness again." Is he gonna learn from this no training thing, probably not. So there's really no point in dwelling on that over and over again.
You can sum up his role, and pretty much everyone else's role as "Fight, Job, benchmark, cheer." Not sure how anyone finds that appropriate for any one who's not the current 4. It's disgusting and downright terrible to see everything pretty much become "YOU GOT DIS GOKU!"
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:
You can sum up his role, and pretty much everyone else's role as "Fight, Job, benchmark, cheer." Not sure how anyone finds that appropriate for any one who's not the current 4. It's disgusting and downright terrible to see everything pretty much become "YOU GOT DIS GOKU!"
You can even sum up Goku's role like that too."Fight, Train, Get stronger, Win."
I ask thou, WHY MUST IT BE ME? Your weakness is your strength.
Are you reading this? If you are, I just want to let you know that I'm a GREAT GUY.
dbzfan7 wrote:
You can sum up his role, and pretty much everyone else's role as "Fight, Job, benchmark, cheer." Not sure how anyone finds that appropriate for any one who's not the current 4. It's disgusting and downright terrible to see everything pretty much become "YOU GOT DIS GOKU!"
You can even sum up Goku's role like that too."Fight, Train, Get stronger, Win."
...which shows Goku is in a far better position.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
dbzfan7 wrote:
You can sum up his role, and pretty much everyone else's role as "Fight, Job, benchmark, cheer." Not sure how anyone finds that appropriate for any one who's not the current 4. It's disgusting and downright terrible to see everything pretty much become "YOU GOT DIS GOKU!"
You can even sum up Goku's role like that too."Fight, Train, Get stronger, Win."
...which shows Goku is in a far better position.
I'm just pointing out that it's stupid to state that someones role can be be sum up like this. You can literally sum up anyone's role like that.
I ask thou, WHY MUST IT BE ME? Your weakness is your strength.
Are you reading this? If you are, I just want to let you know that I'm a GREAT GUY.
