What are the power levels gt characters on a scale

Cetra · Post by **Cetra** » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:46 pm

Counting BoG, FnF and GT:

Super-Saiyajin God (Base Goku/Vegeta): 6, probably 7 by then
Super-Saiyajin God Super-Saiyajin (SSJ Goku/Vegeta): 8
Beerus the Destroyer: 10
Baby, controlling God powered Vegeta: 10, 11-12 as Were Monkey
Super-Saiyajin 4 (channeling the God powers of a Were Monkey): 12
Super 17: 9 ---> 13 after absorbing Z warrior and God powers from attacks
Super Yi Xing Long: 15
Whis: 15
Gogeta: 20
Power of the Universe: higher than the rest

Tectorman · Post by **Tectorman** » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:12 pm

Methuselah wrote:99.99% of the time, the main villain of the newest arc is going to be more powerful than the strongest thing of a previous one.

That works with GT being a continuation of the Z anime, but not new material written long after GT was finished. Even if we do go with the interpretation that BoG/RoF are in the same timeline as GT, we can't really take statements made by the GT characters to include events their writers had no knowledge of.

The closest basis for comparison is Majin Buu. Based on Rildo being stronger than GT Gohan, who wasn't weaker than Buu Saga Gohan*, who was stronger than every Buu but Buutenks and Buuhan (a comparison I hadn't taken into account originally), Goku's reference must be either Buutenks or Buuhan (and I previously stated my reasons why I think it's in reference to Buuhan.

*

Spoiler:

Metal Rildo is stated to be a little stronger than Goku's previous estimate of his strength (which was Majin Buu, which I take to mean Buuhan). GT SSJ Goku was equal to that power, so let's call that 1X.

Vegetto in Base was also stronger than Buuhan by an unspecified amount, so I think it safe to also call him 1X.

Making GT SSJ Goku roughly (for lack of any further clarification) equal to Buu Saga Base Vegetto.

GT SSJ4 Goku, then, is 80X, while Buu Saga SSJ Vegetto would be 50X.

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
Hitiro wrote:If we're going to use guidebooks and other official material though, the GT anime comic says that SSJ4 Goku is about as strong as SSJ Vegetto.
It doesn't say SS Vegetto. It can easily be interpreted as SS3 Vegetto > SS4 Goku (which I actually take it to mean.) Also, guidebooks don't hold more weight over the actual show. If it conflicts with the show, it should be discarded.

No, it does say SSJ (not 2 or 3) Vegetto, but it also uses the phrase "is perhaps stronger", so it's not actually wrong. "Perhaps" leaves room for "perhaps not", so all it really means is that the two are assuredly within spitting distance of each other (and 50X and 80X qualify, I would say).

I previously explained how much stronger I thought Beyond Limits Goku to be (basically, 4/3 by 4/3), which would put BL Goku at 142X. Syn Shenron would be at 106X, putting Omega Shenron at 1,060X.

The GT Perfect Files call SSJ4 Gogeta dozens (at least twenty-four) of times stronger than any other SSJ4, but discarding that leaves us with Fusion Reborn, which puts SSJ Gogeta stronger than SSJ3 Goku, making it only some number greater than eight. Putting SSJ4 Gogeta at some number greater than 1,137X.

Meanwhile, Buu Saga SSJ2 Vegetto is 100X and SSJ3 Vegetto is 400X. Since SSJG Goku establishes that his power is greater than he could imagine and he says this at 80%, SSJG Goku is some number greater than 500X, putting Beers at over 833X and Whis at 1,250X.

This does not take into account how much stronger Goku got in between the Buu Saga and BoG. Whether you think he got eight, or two hundred, or four hundred (or more) times stronger from the Buu Saga to GT, it's disingenuous to assume he made zero improvement during the five years before BoG.

So, revising my estimates (and yes, I realize that only one of them really changed, but hey, I'm consistent):

Beyond Limits Goku: >0.8
SSJ4 Vegeta: >0.8
Oozaru Baby Vegeta: >0.6
Super 17: >0.7 (but only after absorbing the 10x Kamehameha)
Omega Shenron: ~6
SSJ4 Gogeta: ~9

Methuselah · Post by **Methuselah** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:32 am

Tectorman wrote: That works with GT being a continuation of the Z anime, but not new material written long after GT was finished.

I did say "going with the interpretation", not that I necessarily agreed with it. I just said it to basically explain why some people put GT as high as they do, which I can somewhat understand. Perhaps I should've made that clearer.

But to sum up my own views of GT battle powers, I'm in the camp of Super Baby 1 > Super Vegetto myself, and everything that would result from that in terms of GT characters' power levels.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:39 pm

No, it does say SSJ (not 2 or 3) Vegetto, but it also uses the phrase "is perhaps stronger", so it's not actually wrong. "Perhaps" leaves room for "perhaps not", so all it really means is that the two are assuredly within spitting distance of each other (and 50X and 80X qualify, I would say).

It just says After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!, so I interpret it as SS3 Vegetto >= SS4 Goku, so I don't disregard the guidebook or twist/ignore statements from the show.

That works with GT being a continuation of the Z anime, but not new material written long after GT was finished.

GT follows manga logic tho, not anime logic (where Pure Buu is the strongest Buu.)

Chou_Gohan · Post by **Chou_Gohan** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:42 pm

Goku called Janemba was the greatest Ki he ever felt, the destroyed him as a SSjin 3 right after saying that, so Goku doesn't include himself in those type of comments.

The guide is most likely trying to say SSjin Vegito ~ SSjin 4 Goku, so I'll go with that.

Lord Beerus · Post by **Lord Beerus** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:07 pm

Well, trying to gauge how powerful characters are in GT, as far as a scale goes, is damn impossible. At one stage SSJ4 Goku is no match for Super #17, then the next thing you know, base Kid Goku is able to tank attack from Omega Shenlong.

But, what the hell... I'll give it go:

SSJ4 Goku - 4
SSJ4 Vegeta - 4
Baby Vegeta - 0.5
Super Baby Vegeta - 1
Super Baby Vegeta 2 - 2.5
Oozaru Baby Vegeta - 6
Super #17 - 7.5
Omega Shenlong - 10
SSJ4 Gogeta - 15

This is not taking BOG or RF into consideration.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:09 pm

Chou_Gohan wrote:Goku called Janemba was the greatest Ki he ever felt, the destroyed him as a SSjin 3 right after saying that, so Goku doesn't include himself in those type of comments.

I never understand why people use this situation to boldly claim Goku never includes himself in "greatest Ki I ever felt" comments! Ever! The situations aren't comparable. Goku calls Janemba the greatest Ki he's ever felt, and shows us despite that, he's still superior. Goku calls SBV1 the greatest Ki he's ever felt after he's indisputably shown to be inferior, so I don't see why people think that he has to be excluding Vegetto, especially since Goku isn't Vegetto.

@ topic:

Currently, I have these:

Spoiler:

Darkprince410 · Post by **Darkprince410** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:18 am

I never understand why people use this situation to boldly claim Goku never includes himself in "greatest Ki I ever felt" comments! Ever! The situations aren't comparable. Goku calls Janemba the greatest Ki he's ever felt, and shows us despite that, he's still superior. Goku calls SBV1 the greatest Ki he's ever felt after he's indisputably shown to be inferior, so I don't see why people think that he has to be excluding Vegetto, especially since Goku isn't Vegetto.

It's not that it shows that he "never" includes himself, so much as it is clear evidence that he doesn't always include himself when he makes such comments. Besides, even in the context of Bebi Vegeta, saying he's the greatest ki that he's ever felt, after having been pummeled by him, could still just as readily exclude Vegetto in the mix.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:23 am

There's really no reason to think he's excluding Vegetto, he gives no indication of that.

Vegeta-Baby says he has the greatest of Saiyan powers, and Goku says It's true! I ain't ever felt a Ki as incredible as that!

So what reason is there to believe Vegetto is excluded? It's not like Goku doesn't recollect being Vegetto, or Vegetto's power. Goten and Trunks individually knew how strong their fusion was.

Sora Saiyan · Post by **Sora Saiyan** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:47 am

Just gonna put the Vegetto quote here.

Merging With Vegeta!
After Goku and Vegeta use a merging item to merge, they become Vegetto! They can furthermore become a Super Saiyan, making them Super Vegetto! After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!

I personally believe it's just talking about Super Vegetto as it makes no mention of him being able to go further than SSJ. It'd be ridiculous but some people could try and argue that it's base Vegetto (I really don't agree with this), because when Goku and Vegeta first fused they were in base, and it says "After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than SSJ4" so if they do in fact become the greatest master in the universe as soon as they fuse the argument of base Vegetto > SSJ4 can made.

Darkprince410 · Post by **Darkprince410** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:05 am

Besides, it's an entry denoting things that already happened, not a theoretical form which Vegetto "may" or "may not" even have. That entire section of the GT comic is talking about the history of Goku's evolution character wise through the franchise, so it doesn't make sense to make some reference to a form that is never shown at all, nor do we even know he can transform into them.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:37 am

I really see no reason for Vegetto not to have SS3, if two kids who don't even have the form, can use it within a week, while using an inferior fusing method.

The entry is talking about Vegetto as a whole, After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4! It just says Vegetto is the greatest master in the universe, perhaps greater than Super Saiyan 4. There's nothing forcing it to be talking about Super Vegetto.

Given Vegeta-Baby and Goku's comment, Super Saiyan is out of the question.

DBZAOTA482 · Post by **DBZAOTA482** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:52 am

Goku: ∞

Darkprince410 · Post by **Darkprince410** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:12 am

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:I really see no reason for Vegetto not to have SS3, if two kids who don't even have the form, can use it within a week, while using an inferior fusing method.

The entry is talking about Vegetto as a whole, After the two strongest people merge, they become the greatest master in the universe! Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4! It just says Vegetto is the greatest master in the universe, perhaps greater than Super Saiyan 4. There's nothing forcing it to be talking about Super Vegetto.

Given Vegeta-Baby and Goku's comment, Super Saiyan is out of the question.

Again though, it's still only talking about what actually happened, not what theoretically may happen. The entire point of that section of the comic is devoted to the evolution of Goku, so it doesn't make any sense to discuss forms that we don't see Vegetto use.

Besides, if we want to get into technicalities, both Bebi Vegeta and Goku's comments could readily exclude Vegetto because they "technically" didn't exist while Vegetto was around. So when Goku says it's the highest ki he's ever sensed, he could purely be meaning what he, as Goku, sensed. Likewise, with Bebi Vegeta's comment, it can readily mean it's the highest Saiya-jin power that he now believes he can obtain, since he's already in Vegeta's body and he's had Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Bra feed him more Saiya-jin energy to bolster his strength and enact a transformation. Or it can mean that he's reached a form definitively more powerful than Goku is, as Goku is the strongest Saiya-jin to be alive during those early parts of GT, thus any strength surpassing him would give him the greatest of Saiya-jin power.

Hitiro · Post by **Hitiro** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:30 pm

^ Couldn't put it better myself.

Goku can't comment on what he sensed while he was Vegetto because that isn't him alone. He makes up a new being. Even if he could somehow sense himself, it would be Vegetto sensing himself and not Goku sensing Vegetto. So it would not fall into what Goku had sensed.

There is also that Bebi isn't necessarily commenting on himself having the greatest Saiya-jin power ever to exist. But rather, the current greatest Saiya-jin power to exist. I don't see why Vegetto should be mentioned in him saying he has the greatest Saiya-jin power. Because Vegetto no longer exists so Bebi would be the greatest Saiya-jin power.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:21 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:Besides, if we want to get into technicalities, both Bebi Vegeta and Goku's comments could readily exclude Vegetto because they "technically" didn't exist while Vegetto was around. So when Goku says it's the highest ki he's ever sensed, he could purely be meaning what he, as Goku, sensed. Likewise, with Bebi Vegeta's comment, it can readily mean it's the highest Saiya-jin power that he now believes he can obtain, since he's already in Vegeta's body and he's had Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Bra feed him more Saiya-jin energy to bolster his strength and enact a transformation. Or it can mean that he's reached a form definitively more powerful than Goku is, as Goku is the strongest Saiya-jin to be alive during those early parts of GT, thus any strength surpassing him would give him the greatest of Saiya-jin power.

But Goku and Vegeta have memories from being fused, that's clear in the manga, and Goten and Trunks knew exactly how strong their fusion was. It's impossible for two individuals to know how strong their fusion is if they can't sense their fusion's Ki. So Goku knows Vegetto's Ki, yet he still calls SBV1 the greatest Ki he's ever felt.

As I already explained, Baby Vegeta was ahead of before transforming, as stated by Goku himself. But he doesn't obtain the greatest of Saiyan power until after he transforms, and it's not like he thought that was his peak, since he still wanted energy from the tuffles after he transformed.

Also, Vegetto would be the only person left to be surpassed with both statements.

Base Baby Vegeta was already stronger than Buuhan, and stronger than anyone else in GT, but Son doesn't note that he's the greatest Ki he's ever felt until Baby transformed.

SBV1 > previous greatest Ki felt by Goku > Baby Vegeta > everyone else in GT & Buuhan

SBV1 > previous greatest Saiyan power > Baby Vegeta > SS3 Goku > every other existing Saiyan

There's just too many excuses to be made to have SS Vegetto on SS4 Goku's level. Taking the unsourced anime comic to mean SS3 Vegetto >= SS4 Goku, or potara boost >= SS4 Goku conflicts with nothing and can actually be supported by both sides, without ignoring statements from the actual show.

Darkprince410 · Post by **Darkprince410** » Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:58 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote: But Goku and Vegeta have memories from being fused, that's clear in the manga, and Goten and Trunks knew exactly how strong their fusion was. It's impossible for two individuals to know how strong their fusion is if they can't sense their fusion's Ki. So Goku knows Vegetto's Ki, yet he still calls SBV1 the greatest Ki he's ever felt.

It's still not something he's personally sensed. Even though he may retain some of the memories of Vegetto, he still wasn't Vegetto and Vegetto wasn't him.

Bebi Vegeta's line, as said before, can be taken as being the strongest Saiya-jin power he believes he is now capable of obtaining, since he's augmented Vegeta's strength and has the strength of Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Bra bolstering it.

We have a comic that, while not mentioning specific forms, is still only referring to events that already happened, not theoreticals. Compare that to two lines that, as pointed out by more than one individual, have multiple ways they can be interpreted (some of which without invalidating the comic's statement). As such, I'm still going to take the comic's line at least with some validity to it.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:29 am

Not really. Son's measured/felt Vegetto's Ki in some sort of way, since unfused individuals have been shown comparing their fused Ki to another's Ki (Kid Trunks compared Gotenks to Super Buu, and Piccolo even backs up Trunks' statement.) So Goku very well could be including Vegetto when he says he hasn't felt a Ki as great as SBV1's.

Tectorman · Post by **Tectorman** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:06 am

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:So Goku very well could be including Vegetto when he says he hasn't felt a Ki as great as SBV1's.

Finally. I thought we were never going to get to this point.

Yes. You are correct. Goku could very well be including Vegetto in that statement. It is one possibility that is a possibility if one is so inclined to take it that way. But not MUST.

Can we move on now?

Hitiro · Post by **Hitiro** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:19 am

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Not really. Son's measured/felt Vegetto's Ki in some sort of way, since unfused individuals have been shown comparing their fused Ki to another's Ki (Kid Trunks compared Gotenks to Super Buu, and Piccolo even backs up Trunks' statement.) So Goku very well could be including Vegetto when he says he hasn't felt a Ki as great as SBV1's.

There is no proof that characters can sense their own Ki though. They may be able to judge their strength by viewing others. But at various points in the manga it is implied that they don't have the ability to sense their own battle powers. And like Darkprince410 pointed out. Goku sensing things is completely different from Vegetto sensing things. Therefore Goku can't include what Vegetto has sensed. Otherwise he'd be saying something a long the lines of "As Vegetto this is the strongest Ki I've felt." Or "This Ki is stronger than when I was Vegetto.." yet all all we get is Goku's own personal Ki sensing experiences. He may make up one half of Vegetto but that doesn't make Vegetto him.

Kanzenshuu

What are the power levels gt characters on a scale

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