The OFFICIAL Dragon Ball Wikipedia Project

[Kaboom]

So "Bulma" is OK, but "Barduck" apparently isn't. Why is that?

'Cuz "Barduck" just sounds silly. "Bulma" has not only become the generaly accepted form of her name, but also, despite sounding a bit exotic, still sounds... like a name.

[desirecampbell]

I'm going to have to agree with Hague on the 'Bloomers' thing. It's pretty clear that that's the name of the character. If there's any change in the kana of the character's name from the common transliteration of 'bloomer', then that (like Burdock, Vegeta, and Videl) should be reflected in the romanization as well.

[VegettoEX]

Not keeping up with the thread much, but what considerations are going into names with regards to writings by the author in the manga, vs merchandise, vs other official books? (More the former than the two latter...)

Toriyama writes out "Bulma" and "Gokuh" and such.

[desirecampbell]

Not keeping up with the thread much, but what considerations are going into names with regards to writings by the author in the manga, vs merchandise, vs other official books? (More the former than the two latter...)

Toriyama writes out "Bulma" and "Gokuh" and such.

That's a tough question. We've seen that Toriyama isn't always consistent with names, and there are some odd spellings (especially on merchandise). I would like to rely on Toriyama's spellings, but I'm not sure it's best to rely on his English alone. If it comes down to a few choices, and Toriyama's spelling is one of them, then, yeah, use the author's spelling - but names like 'Barduck' just don't make a lot of sense.

I think the bets thing to do is use the most common, correct romanization of the name for the article title and in the body - and have a section detailing the name somewhere in the article. What the pun is, what the kana is, is the word changed from regular spelling (as if to be a pun, and not the word itself), and show several acceptable romanizations, and explain why the common one was chosen for the article.

I think it's important to explain the names, especially in this series where the names are so important and they've been through so many changes from so many different translations.

[Presc503]

Desire, I think doing what you said would more than likely be the best idea for the project. You could provide the best transliteration or English equivalen, then show the name in katakana/kanji and how that equates to the Japanese spelling (so you're covering all bases, and so there's no confusion on what' being said).

Also, I was trying to make sense why "Badokku" would be changed to "Badakku". My guess would that this would be due to pronunciation closeness, but the change from "Burdock" to "Badokku" is strange.

I would say that we say Bulma because Bloomers might be too risque?? And as Kaboom pointed out it sounds like a name. Since Toriyama used that spelling too, then there is some more credence to its use. Look at the Ginyu force names, they are puns on some English equivalence for dairy products, yet we still use Jeice instead of Cheese or Burter instead of Butter. Maybe the translators wanted names that wouldn't seem so overtly "punny".

But they did use Trunks and Dr. Briefs.

[VegettoEX]

yet we still use Jeice

Speak for yourself .

On the site, we use "Jheece"; I believe Viz also uses that spelling, or at least a variant on it.

[Mr.Piccolo]

ViZ uses Butta, Reacoom, Jhesse, and Gurd. They keep Ginyu, of course.
-Rick

[Presc503]

I didn't mean to use "we" as in people on this forum, but American anime translators. Should have used "they".

[Swift]

While Swift points out that the change from "Bur" to "Ba" is out of preference, the change from "da" (the phonetic sound) to "du" (a non-natural sound in the Japanese language) doesn't make sense.

Wha? No, "da", while pronounced "dah", can be used as the equivelant of "dah", "duh", "da" (as in apple), etc. I could easily see "duck" being adapted into Japanese as "dakku". So, potentially, it could be Burdack/Bardack or Burduck/Barduck, as well as Burdock/Bardock. It's just much less likely, considering the pun on burdock. It's easy to see why that bar code card messed up and wrote it "Barduck". I believe Japanese often mess up in writing English (I've seen a pic of a sign reading "No Smorking"; not to mention, remember the "Wellcome" sign on Enma's Palace?).

So, when Toriyama realized that the spelling didn't match the English pronunciation, he changed it to reflect the "ah" sound when we pronounce "Burdock".

I wasn't aware Toriyama ever "changed it" form bâdokku to bâdakku... Where are you getting that?

I would say that we say Bulma because Bloomers might be too risque??

We would use "Blooma", not "Bloomer", because the "a" in buruma isn't elongated like the "a" in Bâdokku.

When you really think about it, it should be "Blooma", considering we always try to be as close to the pun as possible. It could be argued that the unnecessary vowel is the second "u", thus making it "Bulma", but the pun makes this much less likely. I guess we still use "Bulma" just because we're so used to it, like how we use "SSJ" despite saying "Super Saiyan". Technically, though, it isn't entirely accurate...

I think the bets thing to do is use the most common, correct romanization of the name for the article title and in the body - and have a section detailing the name somewhere in the article. What the pun is, what the kana is, is the word changed from regular spelling (as if to be a pun, and not the word itself), and show several acceptable romanizations, and explain why the common one was chosen for the article.

I think it's important to explain the names, especially in this series where the names are so important and they've been through so many changes from so many different translations.

I completely agree (although, by acceptable "romanizations" I assume you mean transliterations, as in adaptations of the romanizations to English spellings (Bâdokku --> Burdock)). In most cases, you can't just say, "This is the correct name, with no disputing it." Often, like with Burdock, there are a number of possible transliterations, and one or a few may be what was most likely intended. I think it would be important to provide all the name and pun information in the wikipedia articles so one can make his or her own judgement on which is most accurate.

[desirecampbell]

I wasn't aware Toriyama ever "changed it" form bâdokku to bâdakku... Where are you getting that?

I thought that "burdock" was normally translitterated to baadokku as バードック. And Burdack's (or whatever) name is written バーダック.

I completely agree (although, by acceptable "romanizations" I assume you mean transliterations, as in adaptations of the romanizations to English spellings (Bâdokku --> Burdock)). In most cases, you can't just say, "This is the correct name, with no disputing it." Often, like with Burdock, there are a number of possible transliterations, and one or a few may be what was most likely intended. I think it would be important to provide all the name and pun information in the wikipedia articles so one can make his or her own judgement on which is most accurate.

Indeed. Because the names can become so convoluted it's a good idea to really explain where the name came from, how it was changed, how it's pronounced, why there are 'superfluous' vowels, etc.

Oh, and by 'acceptable' I meant by Wikipedia standards. Wikipedia guidelines say to use a revised Hepburn romanization but other similar romanizations are "acceptable" if they are far more common.

[Mr.Piccolo]

DragonBall Wikipedia Project
Updated 11/29/2006 3:20 pm

This is what I though this thread would be; the first step in organizing this project. The following are the names of the forum members who were planning on helping out:

-Future trunks
-desirecampbell
-chibi_goten
-mr.piccolo
-maphisto86
-Taku
-Tyro
-Eclipse
-slickmasterfunk
-lil' lemmy
-bardock the mexican
-Duo

I'll update this post with talk pages and when more people sign up. The next step is to start from the DragonBall and work our way to GT and the movies. That, imo, would be the best way to do this. We could break up sections for people to work on (like that doomrider project) and we can all crosscheck it.

I can see this working if we aren't so nitpicky over details like "Barduck". We can smooth out those problems later; let's just lay down the foundation.If you want to help, just leave a post here with your wiki account or pm. PLEASE do not quote this post... there is enough useless scrolling going on already. Thanks!

-Rick

[Eclipse]

DragonBall Wikipedia Project
Updated 11/28/2006 6:50

This is what I though this thread would be; the first step in organizing this project. The following are the names of the forum members who were planning on helping out:

-Future trunks
-desirecampbell
-chibi_goten
-mr.piccolo
-maphisto86
-Taku
-Tyro
-Eclipse

I'll update this post with talk pages and when more people sign up. The next step is to start from the DragonBall and work our way to GT and the movies. That, imo, would be the best way to do this. We could break up sections for people to work on (like that doomrider project) and we can all crosscheck it.

I can see this working if we aren't so nitpicky over details like "Barduck". We can smooth out those problems later; let's just lay down the foundation.If you want to help, just leave a post here with your wiki account or pm. Thanks!

-Rick

Actually, the guys here should write their names down at this project
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... ragon_Ball
Cause if we get at least 5 members (We definitely have that much members) signing their name, this can be made an WikiProject, which would help our cause =D

[Swift]

I wasn't aware Toriyama ever "changed it" form bâdokku to bâdakku... Where are you getting that?

I thought that "burdock" was normally translitterated to baadokku as バードック. And Burdack's (or whatever) name is written バーダック

Ohh... I see, he meant changing the Japanese word for burdock (bâdokku) to the character name of bâdakku. I thought he meant that Toriyama originaly intended the character's name to be bâdokku, and then changed it to bâdakku... Which confused me. ^_^;; (Oh, and I'd go with Burdock or Bardock, not Burdack. )

[desirecampbell]

Ohh... I see, he meant changing the Japanese word for burdock (bâdokku) to the character name of bâdakku. I thought he meant that Toriyama originaly intended the character's name to be bâdokku, and then changed it to bâdakku... Which confused me. ^_^;; (Oh, and I'd go with Burdock or Bardock, not Burdack. )

This whole thing gets rather confusing.

So, the name used 'burdock' as a base, transliterated it to バードック (baadokku), then changed a character making the name バーダック (baadakku) which actually sounds closer to 'burdock' than the first transliteration. So, when romanizing the name we should keep in mind that it was derived from 'burdock' and focus on that spelling where possible. バー becomes 'Bur', ック becomes 'ck', and where ド would have become 'do' we now have ダ. The change in sound is to 'da' with a short 'a'. So, the name 'Burdock' should be changed so that the 'do' sound has a short 'a' - which it kinda does already. So, the options are to leave it as 'Burdock' or change it to 'Burdawk' or perhaps 'Burdahk'. And the only spelling that doesn't look completely ridiculous is 'Burdock'.

Yes, バーダック could be romanized to 'Bardock' or 'Burdack' or 'Barduck' or 'Baadokku', but doing so would ignore the root word. I'm pretty sure the best option is 'Burdock', even though it is the word instead of simply a pun (we've seen such names before).

[Presc503]

I finally understand what you are now trying to get at. Guess I couldn't pick that up. I've been working on a 50 page report and have been writing for a while. My brain isn't working all that well. Still, no excuses

I wouldn't mind helping out on the project if it needs another volunteer.

[desirecampbell]

I finally understand what you are now trying to get at. Guess I couldn't pick that up. I've been working on a 50 page report and have been writing for a while. My brain isn't working all that well. Still, no excuses

I wouldn't mind helping out on the project if it needs another volunteer.

Hehehe, work makes brain stop smart making


And we can always use another pair of hands. If you haven't gotten a Wikipedia account, sign up now

[Olivier Hague]

"Barduck" just sounds silly. "Bulma" has not only become the generaly accepted form of her name, but also, despite sounding a bit exotic, still sounds... like a name.

1) To Japanese readers, "Bulma" sounds quite silly.
2) "Barduck" sounding silly is subjective. I suspect you're saying that mainly because of the "duck" part, but would it really sound silly to non-English speakers? Was the series produced in an English-speaking country?

I'm not saying you should just love "Barduck", shut up, and lick my boots. 'Just putting things in perspective... ^_^;

Not keeping up with the thread much, but what considerations are going into names with regards to writings by the author in the manga, vs merchandise, vs other official books? (More the former than the two latter...)

I would think the author's spellings pretty much trump everything else. He's the one who made the names, after all...

The only exceptions I'd see would probably be typos in existing words or names. And I'm talking about the words that are used with the same meaning in the Dragon World, not pun-based names.
For example, they never went out of their way to explain that "Cell"'s name was an actual word, in the manga ("it means "saibô", like the little buggers in our bodies!"). Which means that if Toriyama were to spell it "Sell"... Well, I would just accept that the character's name is "Sell", and is a pun on the English word "cell".
"Red Ribon", on the other hand... Well, I think these two words are probably meant to have the same meaning in the Dragon World... So I think I would consider that a mere typo, and correct it...

Toriyama writes out "Bulma" and "Gokuh" and such.

The way I see it, as opposed to most of the names in the series, we already know "Gokû"'s actual and proper spelling... and it's in kanji.
Based on that, I'd use a romanization system (maybe not the one Toriyama used though... personal preference ^^;).

We've seen that Toriyama isn't always consistent with names

He isn't? Do you have some examples? I don't have the manga right here, unfortunately . ^^;

and there are some odd spellings (especially on merchandise).

I don't think I'd consider the "merchandise spellings" on the same level as the spellings found in the manga (or illustrations by Toriyama). They're on official stuff (and that already puts them above fan guesswork, in my opinion), but we don't really know if Toriyama was involved at all...
We already have the "Kulilin" / "Klilyn" discrepancy, for example.

Of course, I guess one could still theorize that:
1) Toriyama meant for the character's name to be spelled "Klilyn", but forgot about it when he made the illustrations with the "Kulilin" spelling.
2) Toriyama didn't quite know how to spell the character's name in alphabet when he made the illustration, made something up in a hurry, and later decided on "Klilyn."
3) Toriyama had named the character "Kulilin", but saw the "Klilyn" spelling on some merchandise and thought "hey, I like that one better, actually! adopted!"
etc.

I would like to rely on Toriyama's spellings, but I'm not sure it's best to rely on his English alone.

Well, again, as far as made-up names are concerned, I don't think English skills are really relevant... Especially considering some of the puns aren't even based on English words.

names like 'Barduck' just don't make a lot of sense.

"Bulma" doesn't either. :P

I think the bets thing to do is use the most common, correct romanization of the name for the article title and in the body - and have a section detailing the name somewhere in the article. What the pun is, what the kana is, is the word changed from regular spelling (as if to be a pun, and not the word itself), and show several acceptable romanizations, and explain why the common one was chosen for the article.

Yeah, I guess that would work. It's probably not a problem to make some choices regarding the spelling of a name, as long as you explain them.
I'm just a bit worried about the Wiki aspect of the project... If some guy shows up and decides that his way "makes more sense"...

Also, I think it would probably be best, when listing the different alphabet spellings, to make it clear which ones were officially used in Japan, which ones were officially used in the US (and possibly other countries), and which ones are "fan spellings". That's one of the things that bothered me the most, on Wikipedia.

I would say that we say Bulma because Bloomers might be too risque??

Do you remember thinking that? ^^;
I'm willing to bet (most?) Western fans adopted that spelling because it was already commonly used, and that was about it...

Look at the Ginyu force names, they are puns on some English equivalence for dairy products, yet we still use Jeice instead of Cheese or Burter instead of Butter.

Well, in kana, their names are quite altered from the original words, really. ^^;
Then again, I guess the author could decide that the name "ji-su" (kana) should really be spelled "Cheese" because his characters are using imaginary moon phonetics (hello Square! how's "Tidus" doing?)... ^^;

yet we still use Jeice

Speak for yourself :).
On the site, we use "Jheece"; I believe Viz also uses that spelling, or at least a variant on it.

And I say "Jees", based on official merchandise! Yay! ^_^;

ViZ uses Butta, Reacoom, Jhesse, and Gurd. They keep Ginyu, of course.

On Japanese official merchandise, their names are consistently spelled "Burtta", "Recoom", "Jees", "Ghourd" and "Ginew" (the only "alternate spelling" I've seen was "Burta" with one "T", in "Dragon Ball Landmark", and I'm thinking that one probably was a mere typo).
They fit the kana spellings, and I think it's pretty clear that whoever came up with them knew about the puns...

I could easily see "duck" being adapted into Japanese as "dakku".

That's how it's spelled in kana, indeed.

It's easy to see why that bar code card messed up and wrote it "Barduck". I believe Japanese often mess up in writing English

Yeah, but we're not talking about about the actual English words "burdock" and "bloomers", here, so... ^^;

When you really think about it, it should be "Blooma", considering we always try to be as close to the pun as possible. It could be argued that the unnecessary vowel is the second "u", thus making it "Bulma", but the pun makes this much less likely. I guess we still use "Bulma" just because we're so used to it, like how we use "SSJ" despite saying "Super Saiyan". Technically, though, it isn't entirely accurate...

Not if you think the whole thing should follow an unwritten rule stating that pun-based names should stay as close to the original words as possible, and that the alterations in their alphabet spelling should only reflect the alterations already found in their kana spelling...
But really, it's not like Toriyama ever had to follow such a rule. They're his characters, his names, and it's his prerogative.

I don't think he spelled the name "Bulma" because he sucks at English and really meant "Blooma". I think he spelled the name "Bulma" simply because he wanted to.

So, the name used 'burdock' as a base, transliterated it to バードック (baadokku), then changed a character making the name バーダック (baadakku) which actually sounds closer to 'burdock' than the first transliteration.

I really don't think it does, myself... There's a reason Japanese people generally use "ba-dokku" for "burdock". ^^;


(sorry about the long-ass post...)

[laserkid]

I don't have a wikipedia login but would be happy to make one to help, but I reallyy don't know what I can do to contribute, I have much of the series on DVD and whatnot, but ti sounds like that base has already been covered. Still if theres anything I can do, count me in.

[desirecampbell]

I don't have a wikipedia login but would be happy to make one to help, but I reallyy don't know what I can do to contribute, I have much of the series on DVD and whatnot, but ti sounds like that base has already been covered. Still if theres anything I can do, count me in.

Firstly, you don't need a Wikipedia account to help out - it just helps a lot (messages and sandboxes and such).

Secondly, the more the merrier. There's a unicorn!in' load of pages that, basically, need to be gutted and reformatted. Another pair of hands is always welcome

Thirdly, if anyone here wants to help out with Wikipedia (even outside of DB) but doesn't want to have an account or doesn't really have the time to dedicate to any kind of a project, don't worry. Wikipedia is based on the idea that with more people, and more time, the articles will get increasingly better. Anyone can pop in and do little edits, big edits, start discussions, etc.

And I implore you, all of you, that if you come across something anything, on Wikipedia that you know to be false - change it. That's the point. Instead of just complaining about it we can do something to change it, directly.



Oh, and the Burdock thing... real quick:
'Barduck' probably sounds fine to Japanese people (the Japanese? Japanians? Nippon-jin? I don't want to say 'Japs', but it's the only thing that sounds right - anyone want to help me out on that?) but they're probably not trying to keep the pun at all.
Yes, keeping the pun is important. Not because it's a pun, but because it's the original word. If the name 'Baadakku' wasn't based on any English word, on could easily say that 'Barduck' is the correct romanization - but because we know that the kana is based on 'burdock' we should focus on that spelling first and foremost. If we don't, it becomes a game of 'Telephone', the name gets garbled and changed being passed along so much and taken farther and farther away from the original word.

I just thought about Kuririn. 'Krillin' could be a decent romanization too. KU RI RIN becomes k ri lin, dropping a (possibly) extrenuous U. It keeps the 'kuri' sound (almost) and changes the 'rin' sound back to 'lin' (as it's from 'sholin').
It makes about as much sense as 'Bulma'

I'm just a bit worried about the Wiki aspect of the project... If some guy shows up and decides that his way "makes more sense"...

And that's why we have a host of people willing to back up correct information that gets contested. Having a wealth of information and being right aren't sure fire ways to correct Wikipedia. Sometimes it comes down to votes. If we have more people supporting our side we will prevail. (though, I want to make it clear I don't want to force anyone who wants to help to vote a certain way. If someone on the project thinks we should be using another name, it should be brought up. We can discuss it and come up with the best option together, as a group. If the name is ever contested and comes to a vote, and you still disagree with the group's decision I want to make sure every one feels free to vote how they want to. I mean, I wanna 'win', but I don't want to win unfairly.)

Not if you think the whole thing should follow an unwritten rule stating that pun-based names should stay as close to the original words as possible, and that the alterations in their alphabet spelling should only reflect the alterations already found in their kana spelling...
But really, it's not like Toriyama ever had to follow such a rule. They're his characters, his names, and it's his prerogative.

That's a good point. If Toriyama chooses a specific spelling of non standard words (so, everything except real names like Gyu Mao and Goku) we should use that, otherwise we should use a standard romanization following as close to the pun as possible (changing for alterations in kana).

I really don't think it does, myself... There's a reason Japanese people generally use "ba-dokku" for "burdock". ^^;

Hmmm perhaps I'm still not clear on the pronunciations. I thought it was like this:

ba-dokku
baa (like a sheep)
doe (like a female deer)
coo (like a pigeon call)

ba-dakku
baa (like a sheep)
da (like dark)
coo (like a pigeon call)

If so, then 'da-coo' is closer to the English pronunciation of 'dock' than 'doe-coo'.

But, it's very possible I'm wrong

[Olivier Hague]

Yes, keeping the pun is important. Not because it's a pun, but because it's the original word. If the name 'Baadakku' wasn't based on any English word, on could easily say that 'Barduck' is the correct romanization - but because we know that the kana is based on 'burdock' we should focus on that spelling first and foremost.

And yet... "Bulma". ^^

'Krillin' could be a decent romanization too. KU RI RIN becomes k ri lin, dropping a (possibly) extrenuous U. It keeps the 'kuri' sound (almost) and changes the 'rin' sound back to 'lin' (as it's from 'sholin').
It makes about as much sense as 'Bulma'

Yeah, but the "Bulma" spelling came from the manga and Japanese official merchandise.
On the other hand, "Krilin" basically came from... the French dub? Not-so-noble origins. ^^;