East Kaioshin

[Eclipse]

I've been reading some stuff on the Internet that seems to say that East Kaioshin is only in control of the East Quadrant of the universe, along with the North, South, and West, and under Dai Kaioshin.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't East Kaioshin now the Dai Kaioshin? I remember the other 4 Kaioshins (North, South, West, Dai) being killed by Buu and there being 4 shown in the Otherworld Tournament, as well as Grand Kai (I don't like being inconsistent with terms, but I don't wanna confuse anybody).

So yeah. Isn't East Kaioshin the guy in control now?

[desirecampbell]

Probably. Though apparently nothing of note happens in the other quadrants.

Perhaps it's like Vegeta. He's the 'prince' only because there's never been any official ceremony, or something.

[Mr.Piccolo]

I don't see the Supreme Kai as the East or Dai Kaioshin; he's just the kaioshin now. He's the last of his kind. It's like when someone calls you their favorite cousin when you're the only one. Vegeta is the king of saiyans but nobody cares. That would make Trunks a prince, Bra a princess, and Bulma wacko with a power trip.
-Rick

[Olivier Hague]

Isn't East Kaioshin the guy in control now?

Before the elder's appearance, I guess he was, by default?

By the way, I haven't seen most of the last "Dragon Ball Z" episodes, so I was kinda suprised when I recently heard the characters call the old Kaiôshin "Daikaiô".
I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen in the manga, and isn't referenced in the manga guides.

[Super Sonic]

Isn't East Kaioshin the guy in control now?

Before the elder's appearance, I guess he was, by default?

By the way, I haven't seen most of the last "Dragon Ball Z" episodes, so I was kinda suprised when I recently heard the characters call the old Kaiôshin "Daikaiô".
I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen in the manga, and isn't referenced in the manga guides.

In the dub, that's what he said the Grand Kaioshin's name was.

[Casual Matt]

Isn't East Kaioshin the guy in control now?

Before the elder's appearance, I guess he was, by default?

By the way, I haven't seen most of the last "Dragon Ball Z" episodes, so I was kinda suprised when I recently heard the characters call the old Kaiôshin "Daikaiô".
I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen in the manga, and isn't referenced in the manga guides.

In the dub, that's what he said the Grand Kaioshin's name was.

Which is confusing as heck because the Grand Kai is Dai Kaio, right?

[Eclipse]

Which is confusing as heck because the Grand Kai is Dai Kaio, right?

Supposedly. Which is my question. How can the Grand Kai be the Dai Kaio if East Kaioshin is supposedly superior than him (Piccolo said something about this). I'm not really caring much about his title, but yeah.

[Casual Matt]

Which is confusing as heck because the Grand Kai is Dai Kaio, right?

Supposedly. Which is my question. How can the Grand Kai be the Dai Kaio if East Kaioshin is supposedly superior than him (Piccolo said something about this). I'm not really caring much about his title, but yeah.

The hierarchy from lowest to highest goes

Kami
Kaio
Dai Kaio
Kaioshin
Dai Kaioshin

[Eclipse]

AHH.....so basically the 'Supreme Kai' is the Dai Kaioshin?

[Casual Matt]

AHH.....so basically the 'Supreme Kai' is the Dai Kaioshin?

Well, the dub names go as such.

Japanese -> Dub

Kami -> Kami
Kaio -> King Kai
Dai Kaio -> Grand Kai
Kaioshin -> Supreme Kai
Dai Kaioshin -> Dai Kaio

You can see where the confusion comes in between Dai Kaioshin and Dai Kaio when you bring dub terms in.

'Supreme Kai' is the Kaioshin. And the Old Kai or Elder Kai (Rou Dai Kaioshin) is basically the Dai Kaioshin.

But to answer your original question, East Kaioshin was never really the Dai Kaioshin. But ever since Buu killed the other Kaioshin, there was only one left. So instead of being referred to as East Kaioshin, he was just the Kaioshin since there was only one.

His ancestor, the ancient East Kaioshin basically became Dai Kaioshin since it seems he outranks Kaioshin.

I hope you get me. This gets a little confusing.

[Olivier Hague]

Er... Whoops?

By the way, I haven't seen most of the last "Dragon Ball Z" episodes, so I was kinda suprised when I recently heard the characters call the old Kaiôshin "Daikaiô".

I meant "Daikaiôshin", of course (?). Sorry about the confusion.

Anyway, there's nothing about a new Daikaiôshin in the manga or in the manga guides, so I was a bit surprised to hear this.

[Suupaa Gohan 2]

Not sure if this'll clear anything up, but I've actually recently been going over similar questions of the DB-Verse's religious hierarchy in my head ("recently" meaning...last night and today ^^; )...and I JUST finished my ludicrous map I've been working on for the past like 10 hours. Ah, the magic of MS Paint. XD

-Dai Kaiohshin and The Whole Universe
-East Kaiohshin and the East Quadrant
-North Kaioh, the North Quadrant and Earth

Of course, this is just my personal take on everything I absorbed from the series, and I DID do EXTENSIVE research through all the series' (excluding GT) and the Daizenshuu...just to be clear, it's OBVIOUSLY not 100% fact, it's a fan's (mine) take on it, but it is heavily researched...and hopefully as factual as all possible. Either way, it was a lot of work, and though I did it for personal reasons (IGNO, baby!!), I figured since I just finished it anyways, and it pertains somewhat to the topic, I may as well contribute.

I'd say more, but it's 3:30 AM, and I've got an early class tomorrow...and I somehow doubt my teacher will accept the excuse "but I was up all night drawing a map of the Dragonball Universe!!". XD

[Olivier Hague]

-Dai Kaiohshin and The Whole Universe

The Kaiôshinkai isn't at the center of the Universe, and the elder Kaiôshin isn't a former Daikaiôshin, but a "regular" Kaiôshin (more precisely, a former "East Kaiôshin", according to "Dragon Ball Z Son Gokû Densetsu").

-East Kaiohshin and the East Quadrant

That map of the Dragon World doesn't come from a Daizenshû, but from "Dragon Ball Landmark".
Enma Daiô's palace isn't at the center of the Universe, but above it, in the Cosmos ("Tenkai"). And where did you get the idea that there were four galaxies in the Eastern part of the Universe, for example? You seem to be mistaken about quite a few things...
Also, the Japanese names of Planet Vegeta and Planet Namecc are "Wakusei Vegeta" and "Namecc Sei", not "Vegetasei" and "Nameksei".

-North Kaioh, the North Quadrant and Earth

Same thing about the map.
Enma Daiô isn't an oni. Also, since there are oni in the "Dragon Ball" hell, one could say it's more based on Japanese lore specifically.


Anyway, you make it sound a lot more complicated than it really is. ^^;


Basically, the Dragon World is separated in two parts, the Universe ("Uchû") and the Cosmos ("Tenkai") above it. The Kaiôshinkai appears to be in orbit around both of them.

The Universe is divided into four quarters (North, East, South and West). The Earth is in the Northern quarter, whereas Planet Vegeta and Planet Namecc both appear to be in the Eastern quarter.
The very bottom of the Universe is called the "Ankoku Makai" and is ruled by Darbura.

The Cosmos is, basically, the after-life (heaven and hell, among other things).

There are four Kaiô (one for each quarter of the Universe) and one Daikaiô in the Cosmos.
There used to be four Kaiôshin (again, one for each quarter of the Universe) and one Daikaiôshin in the Kaiôshinkai. They were all killed (or absorbed) by Majin Boo, except for the East Kaiôshin and an ancient Kaiôshin.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Anyway, you make it sound a lot more complicated than it really is. ^^;

I understand your opinion. But c'mon, Oliver . . . SG2 searched for every map she could find and did her best to comprise what she thought was an accurate representation of all parts of the Dragon World-- and you know there's not a whole lot out there to work with. So whether you agree with her take on this or not, I think the first thing we oughtta do is thank her for the fine presentation and the time she put into it.

SG2, thank you. You were very nice to go through the trouble of explaining your theories so clearly, and we appreciate it. Plus, I do think these are awesome examples of some fine thought and effort.

(Hey, Tanooki! Any luck??)

[mAcChaos]

Those maps are awesome.

[Mr.Piccolo]

The people who are planning on working the Wiki project should pay close attention to this thread.. Good work, sg2.
-Rick

[Suupaa Gohan 2]

Thanks, I'm glad some people thing so...Oliver, you made some good points, I didn't realize that Rou Dai Kaiohshin was a former East Kaiohshin but it makes more sense, I DID mean to say DB Landmark, that was a stupid error on my part, and yes, I know it's "Wakusei Vegeta", but much like my spelling of "Gokou", that's just something I picked up LONG ago from my fansub days, calling it Vegetasei...and I find myself often saying that. And "Namecc Sei" is the same as "Nameksei", just because you use a different spelling...THAT one should be obvious. As far as Enma not being an Oni, never thought of that before, but it also makes sense. Thank you for pointing out my errors.

As for the rest...I simply don't agree. Frankly there is NO WAY that could be a map of the entire Dragonball Universe. It's far more logical to say that map is a map of the entire Northern Galaxy IN the East Sector, in which all of Dragonball (with the exception of Movie #8, in which it is EXPLICITLY stated to be in the South Galaxy...though some may bring up that the movie is not canon, I still believe the universe would be the same set up) takes place.

Were it set up YOUR way, what would be the point of having a Kaiohshin to rule the same amount as a Kaioh? That would make the Kaiohshin equal in power to Dai Kaioh. That's illogical and completely riddiculous. There'd be no use for there to EXIST Kaiohshin or the Dai Kaiohshin if that were the case.

I believe the entire issue is open to interperetation. Considering there's VERY little to go on besides those few maps and what little information is given directly in the series, you can't say I'm totally wrong, nor can I say it to you. There's no concete proof that EITHER of us are wrong. We're still following the same guidelines that are set up within the series, but we have our own takes on them. Frankly, I think my version makes a bit more sense, and that it's possible someone else could come along and make a version that makes even more sense than mine. But I did nonetheless do a lot of research on what little material there is, and wrack my brain to try and find a take on it that made SENSE to me...and I ended up with this. Whether you agree with it or not is your choice, but I certainly wouldn't say it's outright "wrong". It is a theory provided for something in Dragonball to which little explanation is given. And as I see it, not being biased, it's at least VALID.

[desirecampbell]

Were it set up YOUR way, what would be the point of having a Kaiohshin to rule the same amount as a Kaioh? That would make the Kaiohshin equal in power to Dai Kaioh. That's illogical and completely riddiculous. There'd be no use for there to EXIST Kaiohshin or the Dai Kaiohshin if that were the case.

While your theory there is really good, and makes a lot of sense - I just don't see any way to back it up (other than 'logic', but logic isn't really a big helper in the Dragon World )

The heirarchy really should be (with the ones we see in bold):

dai kaioshin
- north kaioshin
-- dai kaio
--- north kaio
--- east kaio
--- south kaio
--- west kaio
- east kaioshin
-- dai kaio
--- north kaio
--- east kaio
--- south kaio
--- west kaio
- south kaioshin
-- dai kaio
--- north kaio
--- east kaio
--- south kaio
--- west kaio
- west kaioshin
-- dai kaio
--- north kaio
--- east kaio
--- south kaio
--- west kaio

But there's really no evidence to back it up. Of course there's not much evidence to disprove it either - so we're kind of stuck.

The only evidence to suggest you're wrong is that there's only one dai kaio planet and only 4 kaio planets in the maps given, and there's never any reference to any other dai kaios that should still exist.


I have my own theory - and it's pretty simple. The kaio and kaioshin and kami (if there are indeed more than just the Kami we know) are basically police officers. Kami is local police, North kaio is provincial police, and dai kaio is national police (not a lot of direct actions, more of an administration job). The kaioshin on the other hand are a different section of law enforcement, like the RCMP. Same job, same area, just a step different.



-edit-
Just thought about it, and the yanks here might not know what I'm talking about (RCMP?). Think of the kaio as state troopers and the kaioshin as the FBI.
Actually, that's a better example than the RCMP, really.

[Olivier Hague]

"Namecc Sei" is the same as "Nameksei", just because you use a different spelling...

Yeah, it's just that the "Namecc" spelling takes the "namekku" into account (plus it showed up on official merchandise). ^^;

there is NO WAY that could be a map of the entire Dragonball Universe.

And yet, it is. Really. ^^;
Like I said, the Kaiôshinkai moves around the Universe (+ Cosmos) as shown in the Daizenshû map. So that map really shows all there is.

Were it set up YOUR way, what would be the point of having a Kaiohshin to rule the same amount as a Kaioh?

I don't think they ever explained that, so I don't know. A failsafe, maybe? Obviously, the regular Kaiô were no match for beings like Freeza, for example. So they would step in for exceptional cases.
Thing is, whether you think it makes sense or not, that's just how it is. Really. ^^;
"Dragon Ball Z Son Gokû Densetsu" even has a chart of the Cosmos hierarchy, on page 55. The four Kaiôshin were indeed "ruling" the same amount as the four Kaiô.

That would make the Kaiohshin equal in power to Dai Kaioh.

Huh? Why?

I believe the entire issue is open to interperetation. Considering there's VERY little to go on besides those few maps and what little information is given directly in the series, you can't say I'm totally wrong

I'm afraid I can. The official guides (and their maps, charts and articles) are crystal clear about all that.
You're probably mistaken because you've only seen the "Dragon Ball Landmark" map. That one doesn't mention the Kaiôshinkai (the book doesn't cover the Majin Boo part). It only shows its orbit, as a clear ring.

[Mr.Piccolo]

...
Is this going towards the wiki thread? I was kind of considering taking this stuff down. Someone sucks and it isn't me. Good night.
-EDIT-Look ma, this was mentioned in that 'thar podcast. Shout outs to GreenTeam Records, get money! My producer Toriyama..the fans..
-Rick