East Kaioshin

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:18 am

I don't have time to go tracking down all of the evidence, but I was under the impression that the following was true:

-4 Galaxies in EAST Sector of Universe
-4 Kais rule over the four galaxies in the east sector
-Earth, Vegeta, Arlia, Namek, M2, Meat, etc. are all located in the north galaxy under the rule of King Kai (North Kaio).

-The Kaioshins, or Supreme Kais if you prefer, were all eliminated by Majin Buu, and the planets and locations in thier quadrants were more or less erased by Buu as well over time. East Kaioshin was only survivor, and Dai Kaioshin allowed himself to be absorbed by Buu to weaken him. Then when they invaded the east sector, East Kaioshin went and killed Bibidi after he had sealed Buu in his ball.

So, yes East Kaioshin is the only kaioshin, but the only part of the universe with substantial life and planets left is in the east Sector of the universe. Most of the space travel and everything we see in Z and GT takes place in the North Galaxy, the only exception being Movie 8 where they talk of Broly running rampant and destroying parts of the southern Galaxy. (What was South Kai doing? Geez, no wonder his best contender is a wrestler with a Chef hat, Broly probably eliminated a bunch of the best fighters from his galaxy.)

With that one exception, the North Galaxy is where near entirety of the story takes place. I find it believable that they could fly in space from one Solar system to another to reach another planet within the same Galaxy. I don't buy any theory that says they build spaceships that could handle intergalactic or especially not intersector space travel. I know it is fiction, but they even say that without the saiyan and namek technology on earth they would not have advanced thier space travel capabilities as fast as they did. Only Capsule Corp. has that tech anyway.

So you got Supreme Kai / East Kaioshin at the top, Dai Kaio /Grand Kai as master of heaven, then the four Kaios under him who each watch over one of the four galaxies in the east sector. That's the basic breakdown. Their scope or reach may have been different at some other point in the past, but the bottom line is Buu wasted most of the known universe thousands of years before the start of the story, and that's just how it is.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:20 am

Akira wrote:I don't have time to go tracking down all of the evidence, but I was under the impression that the following was true:
-4 Galaxies in EAST Sector of Universe
-4 Kais rule over the four galaxies in the east sector

Nope. Like I explained above, there are only four Kaiô and one Daikaiô total. Not 16 Kaiô and 4 Daikaiô.

-Earth, Vegeta, Arlia, Namek, M2, Meat, etc. are all located in the north galaxy under the rule of King Kai (North Kaio).

Nope. Remember what Kaiô said about Planet Namecc not being under his rule, when they had to revive Kulilin, for example.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:23 am

Olivier Hague wrote:Nope. Remember what Kaiô said about Planet Namecc not being under his rule, when they had to revive Kulilin, for example.

I'd forgotten about that - that whole sequence makes sense now

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:31 am

Just noticed that in the rumor guide update:

Paikuhan is from the Western Galaxy (as seen by his fighting for the Western Kaiô), where-as Planet Namek appears to be under our own Kaiô's jurisdiction in the Northern Galaxy.

Well... No, it's not. ^^;

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:26 pm

Olivier Hague wrote: Nope. Like I explained above, there are only four Kaiô and one Daikaiô total. Not 16 Kaiô and 4 Daikaiô.

Well the general theory here (excuse me if I misintepret what I read thus far) is that there are 3 Kaio and one Dai Kaio NOW, as the rest (in their respective quadrants) were slaughtered during the massacre by Buu oh so long ago.

Side question- what galaxy is Namek in?

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:54 pm

Onikage725 wrote:the general theory here (excuse me if I misintepret what I read thus far) is that there are 3 Kaio and one Dai Kaio NOW

There are four Kaiô and one Daikaiô, now. Unless you're thinking of the North Kaiô's death, but really, I don't think that changed anything...
(which begs the question: what about the Kaiôshin killed by Boo? can't they still hang around?)

as the rest (in their respective quadrants) were slaughtered during the massacre by Buu oh so long ago.

Nah. There never were more than four Kaiô and one Daikaiô total.

what galaxy is Namek in?

The Eastern one, I think.
Not the Northern one anyway, that's for sure.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:07 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
what galaxy is Namek in?
The Eastern one, I think.
Not the Northern one anyway, that's for sure.

Ya' know, I've been checking around... and I can't find any evidence one way or the other. In volume 22, Kaio doesn't specifically say what galaxy it's in... it takes him a minute to figure out where it is, but he doesn't SAY where that is in relation to Earth or his domain. We get Bulma's coordinates for it, but that's not helpful.

As far as I can tell, the daizenshuu don't say anything... the "WORLD GUIDE" only says it's part of "THE COSMOS"

. I haven't taken a really detailed look, though.

Any other thoughts / evidence?

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:21 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Ya' know, I've been checking around... and I can't find any evidence one way or the other. In volume 22, Kaio doesn't specifically say what galaxy it's in...

Well, he does say it's not in his jurisdiction, when they have to revive Kulilin. So it's not in the Northern galaxy.

As far as I can tell, the daizenshuu don't say anything...

I don't have the Daizenshû map right here, so I don't remember if it's on it as well, but the Landmark map puts Namecc on what appears to be the Eastern galaxy (then again, I guess it literally is a matter of point of view).

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:31 pm

Olivier Hague wrote: Nah. There never were more than four Kaiô and one Daikaiô total.

Is that actually sourced anywhere though? Reading the manga and watching the anime they don't specifically say. I agree with the poster who said it would be kinda silly if it was just one section of the universe with 4 quadrants total. It makes the Kaioshin roughley equal to the Kaios and basically makes the Kaios redundant. Also, since Buu rampaged through the galaxy killing gods and their domains and slaughtering life, you'd think there would be something mentioned by surviving gods if their quadrants had been ravaged. I figured their relative uninvolvement made the most sense under assumption that East Kaioshins domain as a whole (and thus the 4 Kaios and Dai Kaio under his control) was spared from serious harm.

I relaize that is speculating, but is there anything in the Daizenshuu or another source that says there were only ever 4 Kaios + Dai and that the dead Kaioshin ruled in the same galaxies?

Post by **VegettoEX** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:51 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:Well, he does say it's not in his jurisdiction, when they have to revive Kulilin. So it's not in the Northern galaxy.

Gotcha. I hadn't gone that far, yet, in my spot-checking. Where's this at?

Olivier Hague wrote:I don't have the Daizenshû map right here, so I don't remember if it's on it as well, but the Landmark map puts Namecc on what appears to be the Eastern galaxy (then again, I guess it literally is a matter of point of view).

Gotcha. Looking at that, right now. They put Planet Vegeta & Planet Freeza in pretty close proximity... can we assume all three are in the same galaxy? If so, is there any evidence for the other two that states where they're located? They definitely appear to be on the other "side" from where Earth is.

Regarding the god hierarchy, and the relations of Kaio to Kaioshin... uhh... I seem to have this image that I've scanned and semi-translated from the daizenshuu

.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:29 pm

VegettoEX wrote:I hadn't gone that far, yet, in my spot-checking. Where's this at?

Well... When they're about to revive Kulilin? ^^;
Around volume 28, I think?

They put Planet Vegeta & Planet Freeza in pretty close proximity... can we assume all three are in the same galaxy? If so, is there any evidence for the other two that states where they're located? They definitely appear to be on the other "side" from where Earth is.

I don't remember them actually saying anything about where the different planets are (except for the Earth, naturally), and I guess there are several possible interpretations of the map...
The way I see it, the Northern galaxy is on the right, and Namecc, Vegeta and Freeza #whatever appear to be on the front (then again, maybe they're actually behind?), which would be the Eastern or Western galaxy (a matter of point of view).

Post by **VegettoEX** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:56 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:I hadn't gone that far, yet, in my spot-checking. Where's this at?
Well... When they're about to revive Kulilin? ^^;
Around volume 28, I think?

All right... here we go... I don't think this relates to what AREAS he has PHYSICAL "jurisdiction" over, but rather, what sort of godly duties he may or may not perform (whether he's even capable of them is up to debate, but has nothing to do with this discussion). Just taking this from Viz, but I think it's decent:

Chapter 328 wrote:"... You're the one who doesn't know anything... Chaozu will reutrn to life here... but Goku and Kuririn will come back on Planet Namek...

... and there is no Planet Namek anymore.

It's empty space... death awaits again the moment they're restored... I can't do anything about it... that's beyond my cosmic jurisdiction..."

Additional thoughts?

Olivier Hague wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:They put Planet Vegeta & Planet Freeza in pretty close proximity... can we assume all three are in the same galaxy? If so, is there any evidence for the other two that states where they're located? They definitely appear to be on the other "side" from where Earth is.
I don't remember them actually saying anything about where the different planets are (except for the Earth, naturally), and I guess there are several possible interpretations of the map...
The way I see it, the Northern galaxy is on the right, and Namecc, Vegeta and Freeza #whatever appear to be on the front (then again, maybe they're actually behind?), which would be the Eastern or Western galaxy (a matter of point of view).

So we're still kinda back to square-one (well, square-two), where there's nothing said in the series that we know of.

Also, thoughts on the god hierarchy?

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:36 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Also, thoughts on the god hierarchy?

The same as I've always thought: there's a Kaio for each quadrent, and a Kaioshin for each quadrent. Yeah that seems redundant, I don't think Toriyama thought it through. *shrug*

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:00 am

That's a great God hierarchy and all, but how is it North Kaio's pet monkey ranks higher than Kami-sama?

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:23 am

I've always been under the impression that you've had a Kami for each inhabited planet in a galaxy, a Kaio for each quarter of a galaxy, and a Dai Kaio to oversee the entire galaxy. And then, above them, the Kaioshin worked in tangent to oversee the universe and the Dai Kaioshin was was basicly their superior and just made sure they didn't screw anything up and trained them. We just never saw the other 12 Kaio or 3 Dai Kaio because there was never any need since no one ever left the North Galaxy.

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:31 am

VegettoEX stated: "All right... here we go... I don't think this relates to what AREAS he has PHYSICAL "jurisdiction" over, but rather, what sort of godly duties he may or may not perform (whether he's even capable of them is up to debate, but has nothing to do with this discussion)."

----------------------------------------------
^ I agree that this is what North Kaio was referring to. I always took it to mean that it was beyond his power to do anything about the rules of death. Even though Krillin could come back to life, he could be on Mars nearby for all intents and purposes, and had it blown up, he'd be stranded if wished back and just die again immediately afterwards. North Kaio would still be outside his "Cosmic jurisdiction" to do anything about it, even though Mars is in the same solar system as earth (presumably in Dragon World as well) and well within the North Galaxy.

Oliver quoted me and basically responded to what someone else had said. I never said there were anymore than 4 Kaios and 1 Dai Kaio. So that was a misdirected response perhaps?

The evidence that we DO have is that the ships used to travel in outer space in the series are probably not intergalactic, and definately not intersteller starships. It takes Vegeta and Nappa a year to fly to earth in their saiyan spacepods from whatever world they traveled there from. It also took Goku close to a year to return to earth from Yardrat. That was all within the same Galaxy. They do not ever show anyone going to lightspeed or making "jumps to hyperspace ala Star Wars". If they could, I am sure they would. Galaxys are formed of thousands of planets and are many, many, MANY lightyears away from each other. The fact that anyone on earth is even capable to fly to other solar systems, let alone another Galaxy is miraculous enough. Only then because Bulma and Dr. Briefs were able to modify Saiyan and Namekian technology and then later reverse engineer it to create thier own spaceships.

For that reason alone, Namek must be in the North Galaxy. It only took them six months to travel there via Piccolo's original ship, and Goku what, a few weeks? I think that is more than evidence enough. I will now explain the Kais and thier reach in a little more detail this time so I am not misunderstood.

-North Kaioshin and West Kaioshin were killed by Majin Buu
-South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin were absorbed by Majin Buu
-Majin Buu destroyed nearly all worlds in the quadrants ruled by the North, West and South Kaioshins.

Wiether prior to that the lower Kaios had a different ruling arrangement or not is unclear. In the anime, North Kaio and West Kaio talk about seeing Majin Buu once before thousands of years ago.

-Majin Buu and Bibidi finally come to East Quadrant to destroy it as well, but East Kaioshin killed Bibidi while Buu was temporarily sealed up in his ball on Earth of all places.

-There are four galaxies in the East Quadrant of the universe, and more or less is "The Known Universe" now since that is the only Quadrant with any planets left with life on them. East Kaioshin serves as the sole Supreme Kaioshin, with Dai Kaio ruling over Heaven, and each of the four Kaios ruling one of the four main Galaxies in his East Quadrant.

-Aside from the Otherworld Tournament showcasing fighters such as Pikkon from other Galaxies, South Kaio parading his fighter in front of North Kaio and Son Goku right before the 25th Budokai, and the mention of Broly ravaging the Southern Galaxy before heading towards the Northern one (and that is a non Canon Movie anyway), everything we see in the series and Manga takes place in the North Galaxy.

The evidence supports all of this to at least a certain extent, moreso than any other theories. This has been my understanding of the Dragon Universe for years now. I am interested in reading what you all have to add to this. Thanks for reading through my drawn out response.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:17 am

Akira wrote:They do not ever show anyone going to lightspeed or making "jumps to hyperspace ala Star Wars". If they could, I am sure they would.

Actually, they do. The Namek spaceship flies from Earth to Jupiter in a few seconds (call it 3 seconds). Jupiter doesn't get much closer than 4 AU to Earth.

So, assuming 3 second trip, Jupiter is 4 AU distant, the Namek spaceship is hitting about 667 times the speed of light (124,188,000 miles a second). This is around the speed of Warp 7 to Warp 8 (depending on the warp scale) in Star Trek.

Assuming that's its "cruising velocity", then Namek is about 321,895,296,000,000 miles from Earth, or, ~55 light-years. Definately not extra-galactic speeds (a trip to Andromeda would take 2,000 years).

This is somewhat shaky, since the spacecrafts speed will vary greatly if Jupiter was in conjunction or the trip was more/less than 3 seconds. But, it's late. I'll get better figures tomorrow.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:49 am

VegettoEX wrote:Additional thoughts?

I'd like to see the original Japanese. That's the only version I've ever read, and I'm pretty sure it makes it clear it's an area thing.

Also, thoughts on the god hierarchy?

Well, it's how I described it above, so... "Told ya so"?

I didn't remember there was such a chart in the Daizenshû, so I mentioned the "Dragon Ball Z Son Gokû Densetsu" one instead...

Akira wrote:Oliver quoted me and basically responded to what someone else had said. I never said there were anymore than 4 Kaios and 1 Dai Kaio. So that was a misdirected response perhaps?

Well, you said:
"-4 Galaxies in EAST Sector of Universe
-4 Kais rule over the four galaxies in the east sector"
What about the other "sectors", then? You would need more Kaiô in them, according to your theory.

The evidence that we DO have is that the ships used to travel in outer space in the series are probably not intergalactic, and definately not intersteller starships.

Not interstellar? Whuh? Do you really think all the planets we've seen are in the same stellar system?
(plus... "probably not intergalactic and definitely not interstellar"? that should be the other way around, really ^^; )

It takes Vegeta and Nappa a year to fly to earth in their saiyan spacepods from whatever world they traveled there from. It also took Goku close to a year to return to earth from Yardrat. That was all within the same Galaxy.

Oh God...
Please don't go there... "Dragon Ball" doesn't concern itself with physics that much...

-North Kaioshin and West Kaioshin were killed by Majin Buu
-South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin were absorbed by Majin Buu
-Majin Buu destroyed nearly all worlds in the quadrants ruled by the North, West and South Kaioshins.

That last one is pure speculation. And it's not supported by the manga or its guides ar all.

-There are four galaxies in the East Quadrant of the universe

Again, nope, there are four galaxies total.

Rocketman wrote:Assuming that's its "cruising velocity", then Namek is about 321,895,296,000,000 miles from Earth, or, ~55 light-years. Definately not extra-galactic speeds (a trip to Andromeda would take 2,000 years).

Well, 'depends on the size of the galaxies. After all, we're talking about an universe that's shaped like half a ball and only contains four galaxies (according to the anime anyway... I don't believe the manga ever called the four "quarters" of the Universe "galaxies" specifically).
... And most of all, we're talking about a shônen manga...

Post by **VegettoEX** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:48 am

Olivier Hague wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:Additional thoughts?
I'd like to see the original Japanese. That's the only version I've ever read, and I'm pretty sure it makes it clear it's an area thing.

If someone busts that volume out (appears I don't have it), then fine... let's rock.

Olivier Hague wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:Also, thoughts on the god hierarchy?
Well, it's how I described it above, so... "Told ya so"?
I didn't remember there was such a chart in the Daizenshû, so I mentioned the "Dragon Ball Z Son Gokû Densetsu" one instead...

I wasn't debating one way or the other. Just putting the chart out there.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:49 am

To Mike (and by extension Olivier)-
Thanks for digging up that map! But I have to admit it doesn't satisfy my curiosity. Olivier, you referenced a different one, is it organized more clearly? The manga one seems to be a general guideline to deities that are actually important to the story (which doesn't address possibly slain minor deities from Buu's first rampage). For example, that pic seems to place Enma-Daio on a roughly even keel with Kami AND Karin, and places Bubbles of higher station with no mention of Gregory at all.

So I guess I'm just under the impression that there isn't anything conclusive (that I've seen thus far) to state anything either way. I think Toriyama didn't bother himself with it. And I think saying there were no more Kaios and each Kaioshin didn't have their own sector but more just did double duty with the handful we met (which I'm not saying CANT be true) is something in my mind like saying there was only one God watching over a planet out of all the worlds in the universe, simply because we only ever meet the one(s) who watch over the earth.

And to Akira- On Kuririn, that's what I always thought too. Kuririn would die ebcause there was no planet. It's the same reason why the dead Namekians had to be wished to Earth after revival using a whole second wish. Had they been reborn a few minutes later... Ya know, one has to wonder what their Kaio was doing during all of this. And while it explains North Kaio's blind eye to Freeza and co, it is kinda cute how Goku and Piccolo are like adopted subjects :p

On space travel- I can somewhat fanwank that on two fronts. One thing I've wondered was simple direction. Unless Earth is the center of our galaxy, it might just be closer than whatever world Vegeta and Nappa came from. It would take me about 5 minutes to get to my neighboring town in one direction, about 10 minutes to get to either to the north and south of me (not counting highway travel), and 15-20 to get to the other side of my own town.

OR

Maybe Dr. Briefs and the Namek race are just the shit. Vegeta/Nappa/Raditz used pods. Goku had a Ginyu ship after Namek. Going to Namek they had a Namek ship and a reverse engineered space ship based on pod technology. Maybe he pimped that ride

EDIT: On the deities- is there a real world reference? I mean, when an anime has 4 guys with a certain theme guarding one all-purpose badass, it seems to be a good bet they're called the Shitennou (ex- Garlic Jr.s's cronies in said saga), and you can reference the Four Divine Kings in actual religious sources. Is this pantheon set up like a real one, or more loosely based?