East Kaioshin

[Olivier Hague]

To Mike (and by extension Olivier)-
Thanks for digging up that map! But I have to admit it doesn't satisfy my curiosity. Olivier, you referenced a different one, is it organized more clearly?

It's pretty much the same thing.

The manga one seems to be a general guideline to deities that are actually important to the story (which doesn't address possibly slain minor deities from Buu's first rampage).

Was the West Kaiôshin important to the story? ^^;
And again, it shows how the Daikaiô was "under the orders" of all the Kaiôshin, not just one of them. So yeah. The Universe is divided into four quarters, and these quarters aren't divided into four more parts.

For example, that pic seems to place Enma-Daio on a roughly even keel with Kami AND Karin and places Bubbles of higher station

Well, it's a correlation chart... The actual locations of the characters aren't that relevant. If anything, the chart just shows that Enma Daiô, Kami-Sama and Karin are all below the Kaiô.
And Bubbles is Kaiô's pet. I mean, I don't think you can infer anything about Kibito's status from that either. Is he really more influent than the Daikaiô? Maybe, maybe not. Is he as influent as an actual Kaiôshin? I kinda doubt it. But he's working with the Kaiôshin, so it makes sense to put him around there on the chart.

with no mention of Gregory at all.

That Daizenshû is based on the manga. Gregory doesn't exist in the manga, so he's not mentioned (that's also why there aren't any pictures for the West Kaiô, East Kaiô, Daikaiô, North Kaiôshin and West Kaiôshin).

So I guess I'm just under the impression that there isn't anything conclusive (that I've seen thus far) to state anything either way.

Come on... The chart is pretty clear... ^^;

On the deities- is there a real world reference? I mean, when an anime has 4 guys witha certain theme guarding one all-purpose badass, it seems to be a good bet they're called the Shitennou (ex- Garlic Jr.s's cronies in said saga), and you can reference the Four Divine Kings in actual religious sources.

Well, they're certainly similar in the sense that they're ruling over the four quarters of the universe.
But no, there's no direct real world reference, as far as I know.

[Onikage725]

Nono, I meant the Shitennou as an example of something based on real religion that creeps up often. Enma-Daio would be another example. I'm just wondering if there is something like that. Perhaps some religious that has deities called Kaios, and did they divide the universe in some way that Toriyama drew inspiration, or did he pretty much play it by ear and draft up what he needed to without worring about the big picture?

And I still don't see what's so pertinent about that picture to the question of quadrants. That pic is pretty loose. It is a guideline, a reference to deities pertinent to the story. Kami is there instead of Dende and it has South and Dai Kaioshin pictured, yet Kami wasn't Earth's God at the time of the Kaioshinkai Massacre, so it clearly isn't plucked from a specific time period. It also has a mention of Rou Kaioshin, who was all but forgotten. East Kaioshin had no idea he was in the Z sword.

So I mean that chart seems to be a nice visual aide moreso than "BEHOLD FOR THIS IS THE DRAGON WORLD PANTHEON SINCE TIME BEGAN."

And noone's suggesting Dai Kaio is of higher station than any Kaioshin. I think that chart depicts relative station moreso than who is who's boss. If that chart is saying that South Kaioshin directly ordered the Dai Kaio we know, then it is also saying Bubbles the pet monkey has hands tasks to Enma Daio, god of the dead.

[Olivier Hague]

Nono, I meant the Shitennou as an example of something based on real religion that creeps up often. Enma-Daio would be another example. I'm just wondering if there is something like that. Perhaps some religious that has deities called Kaios, and did they divide the universe in some way that Toriyama drew inspiration, or did he pretty much play it by ear and draft up what he needed to without worring about the big picture?

I understood what you meant. ^^;
Like I said, no direct real world reference. The "Kaiô system" is simlar to the Shitennô thing (North, West, etc), but there are no real world deities called "Kaiô".

And I still don't see what's so pertinent about that picture to the question of quadrants. That pic is pretty loose.

Come on!
It shows that the Daikaiô is under the rule of all the Kaiôshin. Not just one of them. It's pretty clear about that. So is the Landmark chart. So is the explanation that accompanies it. Heck, so are the guides whenever they talk about all that.

It is a guideline, a reference to deities pertinent to the story. Kami is there instead of Dende and it has South and Dai Kaioshin pictured, yet Kami wasn't Earth's God at the time of the Kaioshinkai Massacre, so it clearly isn't plucked from a specific time period.

1) Nitpicking much?
2) It says "deceased" under some of the characters.

And noone's suggesting Dai Kaio is of higher station than any Kaioshin.

Well... No? Why are you even talking about that? ^^;

I think that chart depicts relative station moreso than who is who's boss.

It does tell us who is who's boss. That's the point of the chart.

If that chart is saying that South Kaioshin directly ordered the Dai Kaio we know

It doesn't. It tells us that the Kaiôshin as a whole ordered the Daikaiô.

then it is also saying Bubbles the pet monkey has hands tasks to Enma Daio, god of the dead.

I don't see any arrow/line connecting Enma Daiô and Bubbles. Do you?

[Onikage725]

I think you misunderstand me. Noone is disputing who is who's boss. All I'm saying is all I can tell from that chart is the hierarchy of relevant deities, not anything that actually lays out who governed what physical realms or if there were once others. I mean, if it isn't considered a stretch to assume that other planets in the universe had a Kami, why is it a stretch to assume each Kaioshin had a quadrant and that before the universe was ravaged they may have been more deities?

I personally think it's short sighted to assume that there were ONLY the four Kaios and Dai Kaio and that they all remained 100% unscathed from Buu's rampage. Agian, I know it is speculation, but I just think it makes far more sense that the Kaios we know were unharmed because their Kaioshin escaped death, Buu was sealed, and Kaioshin killed Bibbidi before more harm could be done.

[Olivier Hague]

if it isn't considered a stretch to assume that other planets in the universe had a Kami, why is it a stretch to assume each Kaioshin had a quadrant and that before the universe was ravaged they may have been more deities?

Because if that was the case, the chart would show that the Daikaiô was under the orders of one of the four Kaiôshin. Not all four of them.

I personally think it's short sighted to assume that there were ONLY the four Kaios and Dai Kaio and that they all remained 100% unscathed from Buu's rampage. Agian, I know it is speculation

It's also wrong. ^^;

[Onikage725]

Er... ok you said earlier "The actual locations of the characters aren't that relevant."

The chart clearly places Dai Kaio below the Kaioshin, but again I say that NOONE is arguing against that. I dont know why you keep assuming that I am.

Kami is weaker than Enma Daio, and respectful to him (indicating a lower position), but the chart doesnt reflect this, now does it? Kami refers to the guy as sir and is scared of his threats, so it's obvious who has the authority. Also, Karin lives in the tower below the shinden and seems to serve primarily as a first stop if one is attempting to see Kami. Seems to me he should technically be under Kami, not floating off to the side by himself.

I'm just saying that the chart is a nice visual guide, not an end-all be-all answer to the question at hand. It seems if anything Toriyama simply didn't address due to lack of necessity.

[VegettoEX]

Kami is weaker than Enma Daio, and respectful to him (indicating a lower position), but the chart doesnt reflect this, now does it?

Yes, it absolutely does.

The connection of Enma to the rest of the chart places him on a level somewhat equal to the Kaio. Kami's connection, if you follow the trail of lines, is one level below this.

From this, you can pretty accurately infer that Enma and the Kaio have a similar positioning in the god hierarchy, but have such different roles that it's illogical to place them on the exact same TYPE of level... so the dotted line is there, from Enma to the Kaio, to show that there's a similarity.

Below all of that is Kami.

[Olivier Hague]

The chart clearly places Dai Kaio below the Kaioshin, but again I say that NOONE is arguing against that. I dont know why you keep assuming that I am.

Where did I say that you were, exactly?

What I was saying is that he is under the orders of all of the Kaiôshin, not just one of them (italics for emphasis). And that goes against your theory of galaxies within "quadrants".

[Onikage725]

I actually want to come at this from a different angle. I was shooting from the hip on my last post. That's what one gets when he checks his e-mail at 5:30 in the morning.

First let me reiterate that I'm not declaring right or wrong. I know it is speculation. I just think that for the question at hand that chart is about as useful as it would be for determining if Yardrat had a Kami. Not relevant to the story at hand, and wasn't really on Toriyama's mind. That isn't to say that Earth is the only planet in the whole wide universe with a lesser god watching over it, but the one(s) on Earth is all we really need be concerned with as far as the series cares.

Now as far as the Dai Kaio thing, Dai Kaio represents a whole, right? Maybe I'm thinking too much in mortal terms, but to my thinking the higher up the ladder one is, the more territory they have. You could have a village mayor (Kami) reporting to a regional governor (Kaio) who would maybe report to a duke or in some circumstances a prince (Dai Kaio) who may answer to a king (Kaioshin) who in turn could be under the command of a high king or in some cases an emperor (Dai Kaioshin). Note that I'm offering those as parallels for the purpose of example, not as translations.

So it just seems anathema to me to think of 4 kings simultaneously dealing with one duke, yet each only really holding as much territory as a governor.

I mean, why bother with directions for them if they all just rule the one body and take report from a single Dai Kaioshin (speaking in pre-Buu terms, since these days the numbers are obviously fewer). If North Kaioshin's jurisdiction was the same as North Kaio's, then that would imply that Dai Kaio held a higher portion of eternity under his sway and should technically report to Dai Kaioshin himself. And we can both agree that isn't the case, and that chart shows this as well. The only logical conclusion it seems is that the departed Kaioshin had territory of their own that was lost when they fell to Buu.

And the actual observable univers has billions of galaxies...so there should have been more than enough universe to go around :p

[Olivier Hague]

I just think that for the question at hand that chart is about as useful as it would be for determining if Yardrat had a Kami.

It's quite relevant as it answers the question at hand. I really don't know how you can fail to see that. It's... well, there.

Now as far as the Dai Kaio thing, Dai Kaio represents a whole, right?

I'm not sure what you mean... He "rules" over all four Kaiô, anyway, yeah?

Maybe I'm thinking too much in mortal terms, but to my thinking the higher up the ladder one is, the more territory they have.

Well, not here.
Look, I realize you're looking for a pyramidal hierarchy, but that's just not how it is. The guides say so, and the charts show as much.

How does the whole thing work exactly? What's the exact role of the Daikaiô and the Daikaiôshin, if they both already have "underlings" watching over the entirety of the universe? We don't really know (I believe?).
Wouldn't it be simpler to get rid of the "regular" Kaiô and let the Kaiôshin handle the whole thing? Possibly.
Does it make sense? Maybe not. Maybe Toriyama simply wanted to come up with more powerful deities, just like he was coming up with more powerful bad guys.

What we do know is that the "Dragon Ball" Universe is divided into four "galaxies" and that's it. And each of these galaxies has one Kaiô and one Kaiôshin assigned to it.

And the actual observable univers has billions of galaxies...so there should have been more than enough universe to go around :p

Well, the actual observable universe doesn't appear to be shaped like half a ball, with the other half containing heaven and hell... ^^;

[Onikage725]

Well, the actual observable universe doesn't appear to be shaped like half a ball, with the other half containing heaven and hell... ^^;

Haha touché friend, touché.

Well let me ask this... does the text around that chart say "this is the pantheon as it once and always was" or something to that effect. My impression is that its a reference of gods in DB/Z. Any question of more would be as irrelevant as suggesting more Kamis be drawn in (sorry to keep using that). Doesn't mean there weren't any, just that they don't apply.

It just seems to me that the whole theme of Buu ripped the galaxy a new asshole is diminished if there wasn't much collateral damage. To quote a friend, it takes the "mass" out of the Kaioshinkai Massacre. Just always made more sense to me that "our" Kaios remained unscathed because their Kaioshin was able to keep his domain safe from harm (thanks to Dai Kaioshins timely sacrifice).

[Olivier Hague]

does the text around that chart say "this is the pantheon as it once and always was" or something to that effect. My impression is that its a reference of gods in DB/Z.

I'm repeating myself, but the chart shows that the Daikaiô was under the orders of all the Kaiôshin. When did things use to work like that, according to you? During the series, when there was only one of them left?

The chart shows how things are supposed to work. The only difference, at the time of the series, being that the East Kaiôshin is now alone (well, there's Kibito, I guess... meh).

Any question of more would be as irrelevant as suggesting more Kamis be drawn in (sorry to keep using that). Doesn't mean there weren't any, just that they don't apply.

I realize that they only show one "planetary god" when we know there are several of them ('should be, anyway, right?). So yeah, it's not a 100% complete chart (not as far as the "underlings" are concerned, anyway). Agreed.
But again, if the North, West and South Kaiôshin were watching over other parts of the universe (not pictured), why would the chart connect them all to "our" Daikaiô and Kaiô? According to your "quadrant" view of the universe, the chart should connect "our" Daikaiô and Kaiô to the East Kaiôshin specifically.

(as a side note, I keep referring to the chart because you can see it... it's not the only source stating that each Kaiô (and Kaiôshin) rules over a quarter of the whole universe...)

Just always made more sense to me that "our" Kaios remained unscathed because their Kaioshin was able to keep his domain safe from harm (thanks to Dai Kaioshins timely sacrifice).

We don't even know if the Kaiô we've seen were around back then. We don't know how old they are.
(well, maybe Kaiô says something about that in the anime filler... I wouldn't know...)

[Akira]

We don't know what the Pre-Majin Buu destruction period was like, or how the ruling regions was distributed. What we know from the diagram provided by VegettoEX is what the ruling heirarchy was back then. We do not know what the regional ruling positions were though for the Kaios.

Yesterday I rewatched the Otherworld Tournament episodes of the anime. Ignoring the errors claimed in the dub, and following the Japanese version with Subtitles only, the information I have claimed seems to be supported by that.

Here is what I came up with from the information in the series:

Cosmos

[Olivier Hague]

We don't know what the Pre-Majin Buu destruction period was like, or how the ruling regions was distributed. What we know from the diagram provided by VegettoEX is what the ruling heirarchy was back then.

*sigh*
The Kaiôshin that were killed by Boo are on the chart. So yes, we do know how it worked before they were killed.

Yesterday I rewatched the Otherworld Tournament episodes of the anime. Ignoring the errors claimed in the dub, and following the Japanese version with Subtitles only, the information I have claimed seems to be supported by that.

What kind of "information" would that be, exactly?

[Akira]

Oliver -

Try to follow me here, ok? We know what their positions were prior to Majin Buu's destruction, but not what the regions each ruled were. Did the Kaios each help sub-rule a sector, or were they always just ruling at the Galactic level? We don't know.

Let me repeat and rephrase to make certain there are no misunderstandings, and no need for you to restate the obvious that others have already stated. We know the ruling structure and who was above who, yes. We do not know what areas each god had control over though prior to Majin Buu's destruction. I said as much in my previous post, but you seem to have skimmed and drawn quick conclusions.

As far as the information I refer to, it is the Subtitles used for the Japanese version on the FUNimation discs. I basically read what the characters said in the original Japanese version of the anime and assumed that what they said was factual to the fictional universe. Hope that answers your other question.

Everyone else -

Thoughts or comments on the chart I made?

[Onikage725]

Oliver, that's sort of what I've been saying too. I was asking for translated text on the matter, because thus far all that has been used is this one loose hierarchy chart and specifically the bold lines on it. You can speculate that if what I'm proposing is true then Dai Kaio should only be going to East Kaioshin, but I could speculate that further that the Dai Kaio we met (in filler I might add) possibly didn't exist, that the chart is in no way chronologically accurate to a specific time period, and that the Dai Kaio relevent to the stories current time only had one Kaioshin to report to anyway and arguing over the generalness of his line and station is splitting hairs.

I'm just saying that what that chart tells you isn't what it tells me. That chart doesn't tell me ANYTHING about this debate, because that chart is a reference to the deities relevent to the story (South and Dai Kaioshin are shown briefly in the pages of the Buu storyline albeit in flashback, for example) and their hiererarchy. Beyond that, Toriyama never said much else. The few panels used to describe the massacre Kid Buu caused was brief and spoke of fallen Kaioshin. The state of the universe as a whole ages before the story takes place was never laid out. In fact if one disregards the anime, we cut out a good detail of what we do know anyway, as the anime at least fleshes out the Kaios.

Toriyama has, I believe, said that his primary goal was telling the story, and that his story was comedy and martial arts. Sci fi and mysticism were elements of the story, not the focus, and he didn't bother with ironing things out on those fronts all the time. Example- based on Dr. Briefs inventions alone, Earth should be at a tech level where threats like Nappa and Vegeta could be met with sufficient force from human military.

So unless there is a citable reference that states a pre-Buu hierarchy (again that chart counts as nothing more than a Gods as we know them reference and is not accurate to any specific era), it is speculation either way. Pouring through the manga, Toriyama never really said anything about one way or the other.

So if you have access to other sources that corroborate your stance, by all means post them! I don't read Japanese, which is why I was asking about the text surrounding the chart.

[Olivier Hague]

We know what their positions were prior to Majin Buu's destruction, but not what the regions each ruled were.

Yes, we do. Please look at the chart.
Again, if "our" Kaiô/Daikaiô were watching over a fraction of the whole universe, the chart would connect them to one Kaiôshin, not to all of them.

As far as the information I refer to, it is the Subtitles used for the Japanese version on the FUNimation discs. I basically read what the characters said in the original Japanese version of the anime and assumed that what they said was factual to the fictional universe. Hope that answers your other question.

No, it doesn't. I already know you watched the subtitled version, as you just said so. I was asking what kind of information you got from that exactly.

I was asking for translated text on the matter, because thus far all that has been used is this one loose hierarchy chart and specifically the bold lines on it.

Calling that chart "loose" just because it's not exhaustive to the point of showing other "planetary gods" is plain stupid.
(not to mention the "Dragon Ball Z Son Gokû Densetsu" chart does mention other "planetary gods")

And remember what I said above?
(as a side note, I keep referring to the chart because you can see it... it's not the only source stating that each Kaiô (and Kaiôshin) rules over a quarter of the whole universe...)
So no, I'm not just using that chart.
There's another chart in "Dragon Ball Z Son Gokû Densetsu" that says the same thing, and the accompanying text is pretty clear:

"Zenginga o mimamoru Daikaiôshin o chôten ni, tôzainanboku no 4tsu no ginga o kanri suru kaku Kaiôshin to Kaiô ga, mata sono nisha o tsunagu yaku toshite Daikaiô ga sonzai shiteiru no da."
"At the top is the Daikaiôshin, watching over all galaxies, then there are the Kaiôshin and Kaiô, each of them in charge of one of the four galaxies (East, West, South and North), and there is also the Daikaiô, who serves as a liaison between both groups."

There you are. There are only four galaxies ("ginga"), one for each direction. And each of "our" Kaiô is said to be taking care of one galaxy ("ginga").
So yes, the North Kaiôshin and the North Kaiô are in charge of the same area. Same thing for the others. And there are no "quadrants" or anything like that.

I believe the Daizenshû would tell you the same things over and over again, but I can't quote them as I don't have them right now.
But really, you could also get that just by looking at the map of the Universe (+ Cosmos). It shows one Daikaiôsei and four Kaiôsei, each one of them above one of the four parts of the Universe. And the Kaiôshinkai is moving around all that. Where would your other "quadrants" be, then?

I could speculate that further that the Dai Kaio we met (in filler I might add) possibly didn't exist

The existence of the Daikaiô isn't filler, as Piccolo talks about him in the manga.

that the chart is in no way chronologically accurate to a specific time period

The chart shows how the hierarchy works, and the notes tell us who's dead at the time of the series. It's pretty clear, really.

and that the Dai Kaio relevent to the stories current time only had one Kaioshin to report to anyway

And yet the chart shows him reporting to all of them. What does that mean, I wonder.

(again that chart counts as nothing more than a Gods as we know them reference and is not accurate to any specific era)

It does tell us what we need to know. It simply doesn't tell us what you want to hear, apparently.

[desirecampbell]

I'm going to pop in here and give my two cents.

The chart shows one daikaioshin over four kaioshin over one daikaio over four kaio. This, coupled with the fact that nothing else is ever said about there being more kaio or kaioshin makes it seem pretty clear that the kaioshin each look after a galaxy, as do the kaio.

But wait, that seems redundant and pointless. But, it's exactly what it looks like. There should be four kaio under each kaioshin, that would make the system easier and seem less 'tacked on'. But there's no evidence to support such a theory - and, in fact, the kaioshin were simply 'tacked on'.

Should've would've, could've, but isn't.

[Onikage725]

Again, if "our" Kaiô/Daikaiô were watching over a fraction of the whole universe, the chart would connect them to one Kaiôshin, not to all of them.

The chart is not chronologically accurate. We're talking about the same picture that implies that the Kami we meet in Dragon Ball is under the ultimate rule of Dai Kaioshin, yet by the time of Dragon Ball he has been long dead.

Calling that chart "loose" just because it's not exhaustive to the point of showing other "planetary gods" is plain stupid.
(not to mention the "Dragon Ball Z Son Gokû Densetsu" chart does mention other "planetary gods")

And remember what I said above?
(as a side note, I keep referring to the chart because you can see it... it's not the only source stating that each Kaiô (and Kaiôshin) rules over a quarter of the whole universe...)
So no, I'm not just using that chart.
There's another chart in "Dragon Ball Z Son Gokû Densetsu" that says the same thing, and the accompanying text is pretty clear:

"Zenginga o mimamoru Daikaiôshin o chôten ni, tôzainanboku no 4tsu no ginga o kanri suru kaku Kaiôshin to Kaiô ga, mata sono nisha o tsunagu yaku toshite Daikaiô ga sonzai shiteiru no da."
"At the top is the Daikaiôshin, watching over all galaxies, then there are the Kaiôshin and Kaiô, each of them in charge of one of the four galaxies (East, West, South and North), and there is also the Daikaiô, who serves as a liaison between both groups."

There you are. There are only four galaxies ("ginga"), one for each direction. And each of "our" Kaiô is said to be taking care of one galaxy ("ginga").
So yes, the North Kaiôshin and the North Kaiô are in charge of the same area. Same thing for the others. And there are no "quadrants" or anything like that.

I believe the Daizenshû would tell you the same things over and over again, but I can't quote them as I don't have them right now.

We really could have skipped right to here. That's why I asked about translation and sources. I dont have Son Goku Densetsu. I dont have the Daizenshuu. I dont read Japanese. Since you have access to some of these resources and apparently can read the language, I think posting a quote could have come before the walls of irate and condescending responses.

The existence of the Daikaiô isn't filler, as Piccolo talks about him in the manga.

I meant the one we met in the anime, or rather the one who was alive in "current" times. Sorry.

It does tell us what we need to know. It simply doesn't tell us what you want to hear, apparently.

Yes,a chart with Dai and South Kaioshin simultaneous with a Namek Kami from Earth holds to a specific era. Clearly my comment about it being a reference and not era-specific is 100% off base.

The chart shows how the hierarchy works, and the notes tell us who's dead at the time of the series. It's pretty clear, really.

So we return to the part where not everyone out there can read Japanese. Japanese wasnt available at my schools, so my second language is Spanish. I asked you what the text said, because I couldn't read it. The notes are not "pretty clear" if you can't read them. Forgive me for wanting a source instead of immediately basking in your ineffable "rightness."

[caejones]

Just to be perfectly clear, is the dub wrong when they have Kaioshin say that there were once "five grand Kais"? I'm assuming that's an error of the dub.

Would it be appropriate to ask how the power exercised by each Kai figures into their authority? (after all, they don't exercise the full of their power in any cases... Heck, while on Earth basically everyone does the opposite of what Kaioshin says). It seemed like DaiKaio ruled over "otherworld", although I could be way off here?

And since we have an ancient Kaioshin that wasn't active during Buu's ravage of the universe, we have to wonder: how are Kais destroyed, and where do new ones come from? And if they are the overseers of the universe, why aren't they immortal? Or are they if the specific method to destroy them isn't invoked? (This seems unlikely though since... I forgot why (no, it wasn't North Kaio's death)).

Hmm, I just recalled the concept of "those killed by demon folk" going into a state of... not-very-alive-ness when dead... Ur... yeah, they go into that non-perceptive limbo state (Shiyol! Awe crap, I forgot how to spell it...).

Speculation as to the demon status of Buu could go on for a while, but... I don't know when to stop... .

Fat Buu's victims wound up in otherworld. Since he had DaiKaioshin in him, that's no surprise.
Super Buu's victims wound up in otherworld according to filler. Since a lot of Kai stuff is filler, we probably have to accept this. There again, Fat Buu, and therefore a couple Kaioshin were in Super Buu, so we can use that excuse.

Was Chibi/pure/kid/whatever the HFIL we call him BUU demonic enough to send his victims to Shiyol? (Sorry... that word seems fitting here)

Who did pure Buu kill?

- West Kaioshin and North Kaioshin <-- Unaccounted for.
- Unless I am greatly deceived, Tenshinhan and Chaozu died when the Earth was destroyed.
- ... I refuse to believe that Gohan and Goten died, dangit! Ok, fine, they died when Buu blew up the Earth... <-- One line, that may or may not be in the Japanese Manga that I remember from the dub, has Piccolo say that "our halos are gone". But I don't recall ever seeing these four in otherworld, unless they were in the background during the spectator scenes of the final battle.

It's a bit of a tangent, but I'm sure it's related enough to ... urm... only fear for my life if Tao Paipai shows up after posting...

So my questions/comments...

- What did each Kai do? I mean, not just the discussion that's been going on for three pages now, but what authority did they exercise in the series?
- Where do new Kais come from, and why do we need them? Fifteen generations can't be explained by Buu alone...
- Is there evidence to suggest that Buu in his pure form was demonic enough to explain the disappearance of the Kaioshin that he killed? (And if this is true, it would explain the "die again..." stuff).

... I'm too tired to make a post like this coherently. *hopes it isn't an evil post in the morning*