Gods with "sama"-honorific treated as full names in Viz?

[TonyTheTiger]

@Tony: you seem to have misunderstood my example, and possibly Japanese culture. The children are being respectful of each other.

But only so much as is common in society. That's just it. We say stuff like "thank you" and "God bless you" to be respectful. But that's only because it's damn near a reflex. It's just how things are. It's not being respectful because you make a conscious choice to be respectful. It's being respectful because that's just built into your behavior based on social norms. I think that's an important, albeit subtle, distinction.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I'm completely against that. Subtitles are in a world of their own, I think, mostly because...well...you're hearing the Japanese. I remember the subtitles in the awful Street Fighter Alpha anime. The subtitles kept reading "Akuma" when it was obvious the actors were saying "Gouki." It's really jarring.

This is what I was saying before. I agree with you, 100%. If I'm hearing "Tanaka-sensei", I want to see it in the subtitles aswell. Most Anime fans know what "sensei" means, so there's going to be little confusion.


In Manga however, you're not hearing a foreign language. You're reading your own native language. You'd want to be able to read as naturally as possible. And as Tony said, leaving in honourifics disrupts this naturality. Which is why I believe honourifics in Manga should be translated, like everything else.

If we want to gloss over an already overtly "this book is Japanese!!" message, why not flip the art to read western-style? Why not remove Japanese names and art?

As mentioned above, the point of translating honourifics isn't to make the Manga seem less Japanese. It's to make it sound more natural to an English speaker.

[VegettoEX]

As mentioned above, the point of translating honourifics isn't to make the Manga seem less Japanese. It's to make it sound more natural to an English speaker.

And wasn't the original practice of flipping the manga to make it more natural for an English reader...?

We've gone back on that one.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

And wasn't the original practice of flipping the manga to make it more natural for an English reader...?

We've gone back on that one.

As mentioned above, the point of translating honourifics isn't to make the Manga seem less Japanese. It's to make it sound more natural to an English speaker.

I was talking about the actual text, not which way the Manga reads. Besides, getting used to reading right to left really only takes minimal effort.

[VegettoEX]

I was talking about the actual text, not which way the Manga reads. Besides, getting used to reading right to left really only takes minimal effort.

Your line-in-the-sand argument breaks down completely because you keep making different allowances (which is fine, and exactly what *I'm* arguing *for*, but you state you're against... when in reality, it seems you're not against it).

OK, we're talking about manga and not anime. OK, we're talking about the way the text reads, and not the words in the text. OK, this one's fine because it only takes minimal effort.

It only takes minimal effort to get used to a couple honorifics, too.

Is it just a matter of "I don't like honorifics"...? It sure seems that way, because your logic trail asploded inward.

[desirecampbell]

@Piccolo Daimaoh, but you're also hearing everything in Japanese when you watch anime. Should the subtitles also keep in 'ore', or 'gomen' because I hear those words too.

I really just don't understand your argument at all. You choose to read something that from Japan specifically, you read it in the reverse direction, it has an art style that's very different from your local traditional comic style, everybody's name is Japanese, and the stories depicted can be about very Japanese centric things - but god forbid there be the slightest Japanese like title added onto that name.

[Kaboom]

Aside from the 1% of the time where their usage is something actually centric and super-important to the story, I just personally don't see some automatic need to keep honorifics in Japanese. Why leave this one particular very-common part of Japanese speech untranslated but not other things?

How are the the simple, everyday Japanese terms for "boss" or "upperclassman" or "teacher" or "m'lord," or even more-common ones like "Mister" or "Miss" any more important than the Japanese word for, say, "apple?" Is there such a big difference in the "levels" of terminology present so as to warrant leaving them un-translated, especially when more easily-understandable and recognizable English equivalents are available?

I'm not trying to take some sort of, "who cares about culture, English is superior!" stance here. Just saying that the point of doing a translation is to, well, translate. So far, this discussion is sort of reminding me of the whole "nakama" bologna that often permeates itself into One Piece fan-translations.

[VegettoEX]

If you want to toss the nakama example out there, fine. The difference is that word has direct correlations to words in English (friend, comrade, etc.) which can be used in appropriate context. Honorifics do not, as they tend to be comparative to each other -- "san" does not inherently mean "Mister", and doesn't inherently mean the same thing coming from the same character when talking about a different character when that same character uses "-kun" or "-chan" for someone else. You can certainly adapt them in different ways depending on that same context that I'm talking about, sure (see the Honey & Clover examples I noted above and how that screwed them over; see dub Kenshin and the archaic gozaru adaptations into things like "That it is")... but to say they're the exact same thing as a standard word isn't accurate ("inu" is to "dog" not as "-kun" is to [insert relational expression here]).

I haven't seen anyone address Adamant's points at all. Why is it OK for us to use "señor" but not "-san"...? I clearly see that Japanese honorifics are the ones under fire here due to this being a discussion board about a manga/anime series, but the comparisons to other worldly adaptations and translations is pretty fascinating -- the "Japanophile" argument totally breaks down when you look at how many other languages and their quirks are "kept".

What is somewhat disheartening to see from folks like Piccolo Daimaoh is the self-inconsistent reasonings and arguments, when in practice and reality from him, that self-consistency isn't actually being kept in the first place (all sorts of allowances are being made)... so shove your head in the ground over it?

[Kaboom]

Honorifics do not, as they tend to be comparative to each other -- "san" does not inherently mean "Mister", and doesn't inherently mean the same thing coming from the same character when talking about a different character when that same character uses "-kun" or "-chan" for someone else.

Well, like "nakama," I guess it depends on context a lot. In One Piece alone, depending on the usage, it could be translated as "shipmate," "comrade," "brother-in-arms," "subordinate," or even just "friend," and so forth.

Likewise, the title "-san" could be translated in a lot of different ways. Like "mister" or "miss" when addressing a superior or simply trying to be polite. But in other cases it could be translated differently or omitted entirely when it's used in a manner that's normally unnecessary in English. Like between spouses (though if you really want, you could use something like "dear" in that case).

"-Sama" could be "sir" in some cases or "m'lord" or "master" in others. "-Chan" could be turned into a "cutesy" version of the name ("John-kun" -> "Johnny") or translated when it's used in a derogatory manner ("Whatsa matter? Is [John-chan / little Johnny] scared?"). "-Chan" between girls and "-Kun" between boys are a mostly-unnecessary formality and can usually be ignored. There will be nothing lost if a boy calling out, "hey, Ken-kun!" to another boy is changed to just "hey, Ken!" or "hey, Kenny!"

And so forth and so forth. 99% of the time there's alternatives to leaving honorifics, but it can take some creativity and careful attention to context to determine them. Keep reading, though.

Why is it OK for us to use "señor" but not "-san"...?

I guess that's another matter of context. If a character in a work is specifically meant to be a Spanish person, speaking Spanish, using Spanish terms and titles, then yeah, that should usually be carried through. In that case, have Captain Spaniard say "señor" all he wants.

However, if it were a work not in a specific real-world setting that just happened to be written by a Spanish-speaking person, and thus used "señor" because that's what the author uses... then if that work were translated into another language, I'd expect "señor" to be translated as best as possible along with everything else.

So to clarify, despite my input above, I'm not against keeping honorifics and other Japanese-language-specific quirks in a series that's distinctly in a Japanese setting, with Japanese people, specifically meant to be speaking Japanese. I don't mind and even kind of like reading "Chiyo-chan" in Azumanga Daioh or "Kaoru-dono" in Rurouni Kenshin.

But in other, less-"Japanese" series like Dragon Ball or One Piece, which are set entirely in their own worlds or universes, with no "Japan" to speak of, then I find it unnecessary, and at times even a bit gaudy. There's some things that can't really be worked around or would just be too awkward if directly-translated. But in these types of series, things like honorifics can be translated 99% of the time and so, if you ask me, they should be.

[TonyTheTiger]

Given that Adamant was talking about subtitles, it's much harder to argue against that. Of course subtitles are going to be more consistent with the words actually being spoken. And I'm not going to pretend that location doesn't make a difference. Given the makeup of North America, señor has pretty much become an English word. Although when it is used within otherwise English dialogue it very often implies Hispanic origin in either the setting or the characters, almost to distinguish them from non-Hispanic people within the same story. It's not too different from having two English speaking characters but make one say "Y'all" to make the audience aware he's from the south.

Is Trunks calling Goku "Goku-san" important enough to keep, while Piccolo calling him "kisama" is just something that can be brushed over?

I think this is much more relevant because it goes to the heart of the matter. We have to be concerned with ideas rather than actual words. No language is a translation of another. "¿Qué pasa?" essentially means "What's up?" but that's in idea only. If you went to a Spanish person and said in Spanish "What is up?" they'd start looking at the sky. The biggest problems are when the ideas themselves don't have analogues. That's really what this is about, right? If English had comparable honorifics we wouldn't be having this conversation.

But the problem extends beyond honorifics. So where do we draw the line (if we draw one at all)? The same arguments for keeping honorifics could be used to argue for keeping "kisama." That was the point of my "abso-fucking-lutely" example. It's obvious you have to stop somewhere and actually start using words from the target language. At some point you have to just accept that certain idiosyncrasies don't carry over smoothly and do the best job you can. In the case of a dub this is where the actors come into play. Even though we don't have different words representing levels of respect, the word "you" can be respectful or rude depending on the context. "Hey, you." Tone also matters. We don't need Vegeta to be calling people "bastard" in place of "kisama" to figure out that he's being an asshole.

[desirecampbell]

@Tony, and at that point I'd take the opposite approach and use the actual term used and explain why the word was used to the audience (in the glossary, a side note, foot note, etc).

[TonyTheTiger]

To what limits? You can't let the glossary and footnotes overtake the actual dialogue. If you were to leave every word that could possibly raise blurry concepts untranslated you may as well leave the book in Japanese and package it with a Japanese/English dictionary. And, even then, you can't really do any of that stuff in a dub. I guess in that case we do draw lines. We just don't draw them in the same place every single time. We end up fumbling around with these things and do whatever sounds right depending on the situation.

I'm curious to see what people in the actual profession think about this. Like how would Steve Simmons see it with respect to the three mediums, sub/dub/manga?

[johnboy1]

@Tony, and at that point I'd take the opposite approach and use the actual term used and explain why the word was used to the audience (in the glossary, a side note, foot note, etc).

That's aesthetically unappealing to most people, though, and it's arguable that how the audience perceives a work is more important than the integrity of the work itself. Yeah, you're always going to have someone not like it simply because it's Japanese, or because they don't like the art style, but when your job is simply to make an existing work available to a foreign audience, it isn't feasible to redraw the entire thing. However, since you're going to have to translate it anyway, why wouldn't you do so in a way that makes it the most accessible to Joe Schmoe?

Of course, like many of the ideas put forward, this can't be used as a hard rule of translation, since the extremes can be seen in Samurai Pizza Cats, which threw the script completely out the window in favor of doing something more American. Granted, that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's so extreme that other translators will start looking at you funny and not inviting you to their parties.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Your line-in-the-sand argument breaks down completely because you keep making different allowances (which is fine, and exactly what *I'm* arguing *for*, but you state you're against... when in reality, it seems you're not against it).

I made the "allowance" of not flipping the Manga, because it severly affects the way said Manga reads. Translating honourifics don't. In fact, doing this is arguably beneficial to it.

OK, we're talking about manga and not anime.

I was always talking about Manga. You might have misinterpreted what I said.

It only takes minimal effort to get used to a couple honorifics, too.

It's not about getting used to reading honourifics. It's not about how many honourifics there are in Japanese (there's more than a couple, BTW). It's about making the dialogue more natural sounding to an English speaker, and making it seem less like a translation. This point of view has been stated numerous times in this thread (and it seems to always get conviently ignored).

Is it just a matter of "I don't like honorifics"...? It sure seems that way, because your logic trail asploded inward.

As I have said before in this thread, I don't mind seeing honourifics in subtitles. I just don't like them in translated printed media.

I really just don't understand your argument at all. You choose to read something that from Japan specifically, you read it in the reverse direction, it has an art style that's very different from your local traditional comic style, everybody's name is Japanese, and the stories depicted can be about very Japanese centric things - but god forbid there be the slightest Japanese like title added onto that name.

Not all Manga is set in Japan or has Japanese characters in it.

[desirecampbell]

[I'm against] flipping the Manga, because it severely affects the way said Manga reads. Translating honourifics don't.

I honestly cannot see why you would think that mirroring the images would cause more loss than the actual words they're saying.

My biggest problem with your stance is that your argument for translating or removing honorifics is the same argument for flipping the manga, and for changing any setting or character trait or name or reference to something more American.

This is what we mean by 'slippery slope', if you think your argument for losing honorifics is sound, then why not keep going with that logic and change Son Goku to George Smith? And make him a football player, not a martial artist. And he lives in Texas, not this fantastical East District.

You seem to be really hung up on people saying 'sama' being too strange; but talking shape-shifting pigs, and monkey tailed muscle boys who transform into giant apes, and houses that shrink into pills, and this guy, and this guy, and these guys, and, well everybody else. And they talk about 'ki' and 'magic dragons' and 'magic genies that turn people into candy'.

But yeah, Kami-sama confuses the shit out of me.

[TonyTheTiger]

[I'm against] flipping the Manga, because it severely affects the way said Manga reads. Translating honourifics don't.

I honestly cannot see why you would think that mirroring the images would cause more loss than the actual words they're saying.

Mirroring the art can screw up words written in. So now not only do you have to mirror the art, you then have to make sure a restaurant in the background doesn't say "sdlanoDCM." Plus, logos and other symbols get flipped around.

[Piccolo Daimao]

[I'm against] flipping the Manga, because it severely affects the way said Manga reads. Translating honourifics don't.

I honestly cannot see why you would think that mirroring the images would cause more loss than the actual words they're saying.

Mirroring the art can screw up words written in. So now not only do you have to mirror the art, you then have to make sure a restaurant in the background doesn't say "sdlanoDCM." Plus, logos and other symbols get flipped around.

Plus, mirroring the images just looks odd and distorted, even to a newcomer of the Dragon Ball manga.

[Rocketman]

This is what we mean by 'slippery slope', if you think your argument for losing honorifics is sound, then why not keep going with that logic and change Son Goku to George Smith? And make him a football player, not a martial artist. And he lives in Texas, not this fantastical East District.

Because none of those are translations. Changing "sama" to "lord" is.

[Kaboom]

"Let's translate honorifics when possible along with the rest of the text" does not equate to "let's channel 4Kids and Americanize everything."

[Taku128]

Lord God sounds really stupid, Kami-Sama should just be translated as God. If someone disrespects God by not adding Sama to the end that can be represented by the tone and way the sentence is worded. Honorifics don't need to be directly translated every time they appear.