Question about Cell stealing his time machine.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:32 pm

My video doesn't touch on things we don't know - like why Cell doesn't show up in Trunks' timeline. That said, Trunks isn't really that sharp. He doesn't seem to understand anything until it's made blatantly obvious.

"What? Who are these androids? I've never seen them before! Oh, right, I time traveled to change history."

"Oh, the future didn't change, but the past has... maybe if I go back further... wait! new timelines!"

"Gohan did it! He became more powerful without losing speed - that's what I should have done."

It's a good thing he's pretty.

Anyway, Trunks has no idea if #16 is around or not, he's just saying crazy shit like he always does. He assumes this because he's never seen #16, but #16 wouldn't stick around with #17 and #18 for long, he'd leave and live in the woods with squirrels and junk - where Cell would probably wander looking for androids.

Analytical Delusion · Post by **Analytical Delusion** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:40 pm

Shit, I've yet to watch your video, Desire, however I'm pretty sure I do need an explanation or something. When one travels backwards in time the first time, it is strictly a backwards timejump. However for successive times within that particular, newly-created timeline, what the time-traveler is in fact doing is traveling forward in time. Although it is still in the past on an absolute scale, one must still travel forward.

Okay, so I'll actually watch your video now, and maybe I'll figure out another solution. I am happy with this attempt though, as in my previous attempt, I always ended up with some infinite loop of Trunkses creating new timelines, as some others in this post did. Somehow, that isn't in issue here. Good fun.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:54 pm

Heh, my theory is actually really simple:

Every time you travel through time, you create a new timeline. This new timeline branches off from the one you attempted to travel to, sharing their pasts.

Every timejump creates a new timeline. No exceptions, no explanations about "he's supposed to be there" or "he didn't change the timeline enough" or anything. Really simple: timejumps make new timelines,

And, apparently, the timemachine always travels to the last timeline it was in. I don't know why, it's just what happens.

Yeah, that's it. The only confusing part of my timeline is that there are so many timelines (because there are ten time jumps.

Of course, I welcome any comments or criticism about it. I'm not promoting it because it's mine, only because I think it's right. If anyone can show me anything wrong about it, I'll be more than happy to delve into where I've made a mistake.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:12 pm

desirecampbell wrote:No, Xyex, you haven't. You've alluded to him coming from timeline one, and kind of implied that he came from timeline four, and somewhat explained that Cell's jump split the original Trunks in two - but you've not stated anything directly.

So, just one sentence, if that's all you can muster, where the hell did that Trunks come from?

Xyex wrote:Cell appeared in the past of the Time-line Trunks made and caused it to split. Since Cell's presence can't affect the appearance of Trunks he still shows up just as he had when Cell wasn't there.

Xyex wrote:Ah, but technically speaking, Trunks didn't appear in the Cell created time-line. Cell appeared in the Trunks created time-line causing it to divide. There isn't a 'Cell only' time-line because Trunks had already gone into the past.

Xyex wrote:This Trunks is the same Trunks as the one from the second time-line. Cell appeared before him causing the time-line to diverge but, until he starts interacting with things, the time-line still unfolds basicly the same way. And even if he'd started interacting from the day he'd first appeared his presence cannot change the fact that Trunks appears. Nothing he does in the past can alter the future so Trunks will appear.

Xyex wrote:What is there not to get? The past unfolds the same way unless something changes it, right? Cell being in the past can not change the fact that Trunks appeared there, can it? No. Therefor, by splitting the events of timeline 2 into two timelines he split Trunks appearing into two timelines.

Xyex wrote:Thus, everything from the time he left until the time he appeared splits off from TL2 to form TL3. Events that have already occured during this span of time still play out exactly as they had before, unless acted upon by an 'outside force'. Thus, unless something makes Trunks not appear he will appear because he already did.

Yes, I have.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:28 pm

So, the Trunks that we see in the series just kind of... "appears"? Okay, that's what I thought you were saying. I just couldn't imagine you were actually saying that. I just wanted to be sure when I say you're wrong.

Noone else thinks that's kind of fucking ridiculous?

He just "appears"? Seriously? How do you explain that? Timejumps create copies of the timelines the traveler jumps into including all "appearances" by other inter-dimensional travelers. But these new guys don't actually come from anywhere?

What?!

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:30 pm

dc, did you see my theory?

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:36 pm

Thanos6 wrote:dc, did you see my theory?

Just read it now, same problems I have with most (mainly why some jumps don't create new timelines and some do).

Big problem is why the new Trunks (from the new Cell created dystopia) goes to the 'happy timeline'. Why would Cell be in that one?

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:42 pm

*scratches head* Sorry, I'm not really sure I understand.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:04 pm

Thanos6 wrote:*scratches head* Sorry, I'm not really sure I understand.

There's an original 'bad future' timeline, a 'happy' timeline created by Trunks, and a 'new bad future timeline' created by Cell. The 'new bad future' Trunks has to be the one we see in the series, and he has to travel to a past that includes a Cell in the ground. The only timeline like that is the 'new bad future' timeline, not the 'happy' timeline.

Though I may have misunderstood. From this quote, I got that the new Trunks went to the 'happy' timeline (splitting off a new one) and fights in the Cell games.

This causes there to be an extra destroyed future as well, complete with extra Mirai. When he leaves, he splits off an extra version of the happy timeline, the one we follow for the rest of the manga.

But Cell's not in that timeline.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:05 pm

desirecampbell wrote:So, the Trunks that we see in the series just kind of... "appears"? Okay, that's what I thought you were saying. I just couldn't imagine you were actually saying that. I just wanted to be sure when I say you're wrong.

Noone else thinks that's kind of fucking ridiculous?

He just "appears"? Seriously? How do you explain that? Timejumps create copies of the timelines the traveler jumps into including all "appearances" by other inter-dimensional travelers. But these new guys don't actually come from anywhere?

What?!

Did I say he 'just appears'? No. He was SPLIT, just like everyone else in TL2. Duh.

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:10 pm

desirecampbell wrote:
Thanos6 wrote:*scratches head* Sorry, I'm not really sure I understand.
There's an original 'bad future' timeline, a 'happy' timeline created by Trunks, and a 'new bad future timeline' created by Cell. The 'new bad future' Trunks has to be the one we see in the series, and he has to travel to a past that includes a Cell in the ground. The only timeline like that is the 'new bad future' timeline, not the 'happy' timeline.

Yes--and then Trunks going back in time from the 'new bad future' causes a 'new happy timeline,' the one we follow for the rest of the series with Majin Buu and Gotenks and all that.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:11 pm

Xyex wrote:Did I say he 'just appears'? No. He was SPLIT, just like everyone else in TL2. Duh.

Yes! Yes you did! Apparently, in one timeline, Cell arrives from timeline one and buries himself in the ground. Then, later, Trunks fucking pops in from nowhere. I understand your explanation (that in jumping to the past, Cell creates a copy of the timeline, including the appearance of Trunks) I just think it's wrong. I think that the lack of anywhere to come from is a pretty big inconsistency.

Thanos6 wrote:Yes--and then Trunks going back in time from the 'new bad future' causes a 'new happy timeline,' the one we follow for the rest of the series with Majin Buu and Gotenks and all that.

Oh. Okay, I missed that it was new. I thought the new Trunks was traveling to the same timeline the other Trunks created. I was like, "but what about Cell?"

Heh.

Then it's pretty much the same as mine, and near-exactly the same as AD's.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:14 pm

desirecampbell wrote:
Xyex wrote:Did I say he 'just appears'? No. He was SPLIT, just like everyone else in TL2. Duh.
Yes! Yes you did! Apparently, in one timeline, Cell arrives from timeline one and buries himself in the ground. Then, later, Trunks fucking pops in from nowhere. I understand your explanation (that in jumping to the past, Cell creates a copy of the timeline, including the appearance of Trunks) I just think it's wrong. I think that the lack of anywhere to come from is a pretty big inconsistency.

Then TL3 should be completely empty of all things except for Cell. Because everything in TL3 was split from, and came from, TL2. There's absolutely no difference between Trunks being split and Goku or Vegeta being split.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:23 pm

Xyex wrote:Then TL3 should be completely empty of all things except for Cell. Because everything in TL3 was split from, and came from, TL2. There's absolutely no difference between Trunks being split and Goku or Vegeta being split.

In your theory, timelines are copied exactly as they appear to those native to that timeline. Regardless to the fact that Trunks doesn't come from anywhere he still shows up - but then he jumps out of the timeline like the last Trunks did, creating a new timeline (or being "absorbed"? WTF?) then going back to T3? What about the Trunks that's supposed to appear at that point in T3 that was "split" by Cell? Does that create a whole new timeline? Or is there more 'absorption"? You honestly don't see any inconsistencies there?

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, I think your whole theory of timeline creation is wrong too, because of such an inclusion.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:26 pm

In your theory, timelines are copied exactly as they appear to those native to that timeline. Regardless to the fact that Trunks doesn't come from anywhere he still shows up -

He comes from time-line 2. Just as Goku and Vegeta and Piccolo and every other person does. How god damn hard is this to understand? The 'event' of Trunks appearing and killing Freeza occured in time-line 2. The events of time-line 2 were split into a new time-line by Cell. Thus, the even of Trunks appearing and killing Freeza occured in time-line 3 as well.

but then he jumps out of the timeline like the last Trunks did, creating a new timeline (or being "absorbed"? WTF?) then going back to T3? What about the Trunks that's supposed to appear at that point in T3 that was "split" by Cell? Does that create a whole new timeline? Or is there more 'absorption"? You honestly don't see any inconsistencies there?

I see as much, or more, inconsistancy with your lazy Cell than with this.

As for when Trunks leaves TL3 to return home, he most likely 'merges' with his TL2 counterpart (they appear at the EXACT same place and time and are still the exact same two people. They either merge or one of them ceases to exist). And then, yes, just as with his first appearance the Trunks that appeared originally in TL2 is split into TL3. This time his experience in the past isn't identicle to his TL2 counterpart making him a seperate person, probably changing his point and time of arrival in his own time-line as well, but either way this causes the TL1 split that creates TL4.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:46 pm

So, maybe it's just me, but I still can't see why your theory is supposed to make sense.

When Trunks jumps to the past the first time he creates a new timeline, but he doesn't on his next jump. Then Cell travels to the same timeline and does make a new timeline. What was different between Trunks' first jump, Cell's jump, and Trunks' second jump?

Then when Trunks (the one that appears in the third timeline) goes back to the future the second time (because, obviously, he's absorbed the first time) he creates a new timeline - but wouldn't that timeline include his previous jumps to timeline two? Just like in timeline three, these events must be duplicated as well, so what happens when this Trunks jumps to 764 and 767, along with the first Trunks, to timeline two? Or do these new jumps go to a different timeline?

Beyond that, it's more just your whole theory of timetravel: the "sometimes create a new timeline / sometimes change history" is obviously inconsistent. Moreso, where does this idea about a new timeline including "everything up until the point int time that you left" come from? And how is it even relevant? Further, there's this "Trunks gets absorbed or ceases to exist" event that boggles the hell out of me. Where does this idea come from? I'm not saying it's not a fine time travel theory, I'm just wondering why you're including so many new theories into this. All we know about this fictional reality's timetravel is that new timelines are created because you can't change your own history, and that timejumps seem to always go to the last visited timeline. My theory doesn't import anything new, it uses just those two facts and tries to explain everything without "making shit up", which is essentially what you're doing with these new ideas about how timetravel works.

And why is everyone so hopped up on using only four timelines? It can't be because of the daizenshuu, because those four timelines call for a timeline where Cell kills Trunks, where Trunks kills Cell, the main storyline we see, and a fourth timeline where Trunks is absent from the Cell games.

And noone meets all those requirements. Well, noone, except me.

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:10 pm

When Trunks jumps to the past the first time he creates a new timeline, but he doesn't on his next jump. Then Cell travels to the same timeline and does make a new timeline. What was different between Trunks' first jump, Cell's jump, and Trunks' second jump?

Trunks and Cell's first jumps would create a paradox with their home timeline. A new universe is required.

But when Trunks goes back to the past, the new timeline already exists, paradox has been taken care of, so no need to create a new one.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:37 pm

Thanos6 wrote:Trunks and Cell's first jumps would create a paradox with their home timeline. A new universe is required.
But when Trunks goes back to the past, the new timeline already exists, paradox has been taken care of, so no need to create a new one.

Why would Cell's jump create a paradox? If Trunks can jump into timeline two and not create a new timeline (because it's not his timeline) then why can't Cell do the same? (He's from the same timeline, and is going into the same timeline Trunks is.)

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:47 pm

I'm starting to think that "lazy Cell" is the only thing wrong with Desire's explanation for why there are two timetraveler Trunkses (... wait, what is the plural of Trunks?...). And for all we know, #16 from the Cell-but-no-Trunks timeline suicide bombed Cell early on since he didn't have anything else to do...

I think I get what Xyex is saying also... but the problem is that all of this mess involves some sort of universal timeline that manages all of the timelines we're working with.
Trunks creates a new timeline by going into the past. Cell kills that Trunks after his return and creates a new timeline. Regardless of if Trunks created any other timelines in there, this is where things get hazy...
If I understand Xyex's explanation correctly, Cell doesn't just get to create an alternate timeline and ignore Trunks's, because Trunks appeared in the past before Cell (despite arriving in the past later). This is where we say, "relative to what?". Trunks clearly already went into the past, based on the events that led up to Cell's trip. So at the time (ur... absolute time? But that can't work because they're not the same "speed" and... AH!), there were at least two timelines in existance. Cell would have made a paradox if he entered the one Trunks created, though, so we now have at least three.
According to Xyex, Cell isn't creating an alternate outcome to his timeline, but an alternate outcome to the timeline that Trunks created. The reason I find this confusing is that Trunks appeared in that timeline at a date later than Cell's arrival date in the past. Essentially we have to clone not just the past, but future as well... which... I find... confusing... to say the least. And of course, even if this works (which I guess it _could_, but would result in an extra home timleine for the new Trunks), we come to the question of "why?". And that's probably why I for some reason haven't deleted my "timetravelers are waves going through slits" theory yet... according to which Cell would basically duplicate himself (duplicates that can never interact?) and Trunks and... whoa, just found some more confusions there. Off to the drawing boards...

The problem with treating Trunks as a normal resident of the new timeline is that he leaves it and returns to his own before reentering it. He's basically a Cronal Anommally (please correct my spelling... that word hates me...), and explaining splits in CAs is harder than splits in timelines...

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:50 pm

desirecampbell wrote:
Thanos6 wrote:Trunks and Cell's first jumps would create a paradox with their home timeline. A new universe is required.
But when Trunks goes back to the past, the new timeline already exists, paradox has been taken care of, so no need to create a new one.
Why would Cell's jump create a paradox? If Trunks can jump into timeline two and not create a new timeline (because it's not his timeline) then why can't Cell do the same? (He's from the same timeline, and is going into the same timeline Trunks is.)

Because Cell jumped further back in the past. This would create a paradox with the future that Mirai already had caused to be written.