GokoU

[dragonpiece]

I've noticed at least half a dozen instances of "Gokuh" in Daizenshuu 1, along with a single "Goku".

I remember seeing Gokuh too somwehere, I think on a Japanese site.

[Savage68]

Didn't the artwork of Goku in Capsule Corp. spacewear by Toriyama have the Gokuh spelling on the patch (which, in turn, inspired the filler scene of Goku in the spacesuit)?

Yeah, this is on the cover of my Volume 7.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I think this will be the 5th or 6th time I've told you, but "ou" and "uu" are not pronounced the same! The first is pronounced like an elongated "o" and the latter is pronounced like an elongated "u".

I already knew that, and that's the reason why I used the Satou/Satuu example. In English, Satou and Satuu would be pronounced the same, like Gokuu and GOKOU. This is evident in words like you and caribou.


In Japanese however, they aren't. Satou and GOKOU would be pronounced "Satoh" and "Gokoh", respectively, and Satuu and Gokuu would be pronounced the same as in English.


This is why I don't think the GOKOU translieration should be used. I say this because it is a Japanese name and therefore should be pronounced the Japanese way, which would be incorrect. Anyone with a decent knowledge of the Japanese language (me, for example), would see the word GOKOU and immediately pronounce it "Gokoh".


On a semi-related note, this confusion is why I try to steer away from romanizing long "o" as "ou", and just use macrons instead. I've heard Ikkitousen being pronounced as "Ikkituusen" a fair few times, and it annoys me a bit (like people using "Yuugiou", but that's for another day).

[linkdude20002001]

It's why you see Goku transliterated as Gokou and Gokuh.

Gokuh isn't really a transliteration; it's just a different style of romanization. You're right, of course, about Gokou, though.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

@Piccolo Daimaoh: What's wrong with the spelling "Yuugiou"? Aside from the fact that it's always been written Yu-Gi-Oh in Japan, it still works.

On topic: CARD GAMES ON MOTORCYCLES!! Wait, that's still off-topic...

CARD GAMES ON MAGIC CLOUDS!!

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

@Piccolo Daimaoh: What's wrong with the spelling "Yuugiou"? Aside from the fact that it's always been written Yu-Gi-Oh in Japan, it still works.

It's wrong to use when referring to the Anime or Manga, because "Yu-Gi-Oh!" (yes, with the exclamation mark) is the official romanization of the series that has consistently been used on official media both in Japan and all around the world.


I have yet to find a piece of official merchendise that doesn't use the "Yu-Gi-Oh!" romanization (my Manga from Indonesia uses it, for example). Even the creator himself uses that particular romanization.


The correctness of "Yuugiou" or any other romanization has nothing to do with it, and this also isn't a instance where four or so different romanizations have appeared on official media, like with "Krillin" or "Goku". "Yu-Gi-Oh!" is the one consistant, global and official romanization, and that's why we use it, sort of like how we use "Bulma" instead of "Bluma" on these forums.


Sorry for going off-topic and sorry if that sounded like an attack on you, but nothing grinds my fanboy gears more than people "rebelling" against 4kids by using the "Yuugiou" romanization. Futhermore, I'm not going to argue this point with you because I feel that I've gone off-topic enough here.

[Goku100xKamehameha]

I have yet to find a piece of official merchendise that doesn't use the "Yu-Gi-Oh!" romanization (my Manga from Indonesia uses it, for example)

Yeah! all official Yu-Gi-Oh! merchandise uses that spelling (no doubt about that!)

[Hujio]

I think this will be the 5th or 6th time I've told you, but "ou" and "uu" are not pronounced the same! The first is pronounced like an elongated "o" and the latter is pronounced like an elongated "u".

I already knew that, and that's the reason why I used the Satou/Satuu example. In English, Satou and Satuu would be pronounced the same, like Gokuu and GOKOU. This is evident in words like you and caribou.

Dude, your argument here is backwards then, which is why it doesn't make any sense. His name in Japanese is Satou, not Satuu. The only way for your example to be comparable to Gokuu would be if his name was actually Satuu in Japanese and you wrote it as Satou in English. But in this case, his name is actually Satou, with a distinct "oh" sound at the end, whereas Gokuu has a distinct "uu" sound. So while I agree with you that you wouldn't write the family name "Satou" (左藤) as "Satuu", it isn't a comparable example or valid argument to what is being discussed here. Do you get what I'm saying?

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Dude, your argument here is backwards then, which is why it doesn't make any sense. His name in Japanese is Satou, not Satuu. The only way for your example to be comparable to Gokuu would be if his name was actually Satuu in Japanese and you wrote it as Satou in English. But in this case, his name is actually Satou, with a distinct "oh" sound at the end, whereas Gokuu has a distinct "uu" sound. So while I agree with you that you wouldn't write the family name "Satou" (左藤) as "Satuu", it isn't a comparable example or valid argument to what is being discussed here. Do you get what I'm saying?

I do and I also think my arguement made some sense, however I just used a bad example. I'll rephrase my arguement. Romanizing 悟空 (Gokuu) as "GOKOU" is the same as romanizing 雄大 (Yuudai) as "Youdai". It's stupid and incorrect. I say this because "GOKOU" and "Youdai" are of Japanese origin and thus should be pronounced the Japanese way, which makes the names incorrect.


The "ou is pronounced as uu in English, which makes GOKOU a correct spelling" arguement would hold some ground if the name that we're talking wasn't of Japanese origin, but as we know it is, which doesn't really make the arguement all that valid. A name should be pronounced as it normally would in it's native language. Does anyone pronounce "marijuana" or "bouquet" as they would be in English?


Also, let me get one thing straight. No, I'm not defending the word filter. I don't think there should be one, period. I simply think that the "GOKOU" spelling is incorrect.

[OutlawTorn]

The "ou is pronounced as uu in English, which makes GOKOU a correct spelling" arguement would hold some ground if the name that we're talking wasn't of Japanese origin

Honestly, I have a hard time pronouncing "Gokou" the same way as I would "Goku" and I don't believe the "'ou' is pronounced as 'uu' in English" as being accurate, (if such was the case, why do Americans mock Canadians when they claim we say "aboot" and "hoose" or "oot"? If "ou" is supposed to sound like "uu" wouldn't that be the proper pronunciation? since it's not, it kinda debunks the theory) especially if the primary word people use to support that theory is "you." Even the "would" example would not result in a "Goku" pronunciation. The only name, off the top of my head, which could be used to support this theory is "Lou"

A couple examples:

bough - the "ou" has either an "oh" or "ow" sound depending on your pronunciation.
tough - the "ou" here has an "uh" sound.
touché - okay, now it has an "oo" sound, but it is also a word imported from French.

[Herms]

Honestly, I have a hard time pronouncing "Goku" the same way as I would "Goku" and I don't believe the "'ou' is pronounced as 'uu' in English" as being accurate, (if such was the case, why do Americans mock Canadians when they claim we say "aboot" and "hoose" or "oot"? If "ou" is supposed to sound like "uu" wouldn't that be the proper pronunciation? since it's not, it kinda debunks the theory) especially if the primary word people use to support that theory is "you." Even the "would" example would not result in a "Goku" pronunciation. The only name, off the top of my head, which could be used to support this theory is "Lou"

It's not that "ou" is supposed to be pronounced like "uu", or will always be in all circumstances, but that it can be and is pronounced that way in certain cases. There pretty much isn't any combination of letters that will be pronounced the same way in all circumstances in English. English is just kinda crazy that way.

[linkdude20002001]

The "ou is pronounced as uu in English, which makes GOKOU a correct spelling" arguement would hold some ground if the name that we're talking wasn't of Japanese origin, but as we know it is, which doesn't really make the arguement all that valid. A name should be pronounced as it normally would in it's native language. Does anyone pronounce "marijuana" or "bouquet" as they would be in English?

There's a huge difference between names and words. There's also a huge difference between spellings and pronunciations. Marijuana isn't even pronounced the same as it is in Spanish. I think the "mari" is pronounced mah-ree, not mar-uh. Anyways, people can spell their names however they choose to. I have a friend named Daryk, and a friend named Mykaela. Are those spellings not "correct"? Is Leiji Matsumoto spelling HIS name wrong, too, just because he doesn't use "Revised Hepburn" like you do?

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

There's a huge difference between names and words. There's also a huge difference between spellings and pronunciations

If you're talking about English, I would agree with you. However we're talking about Japanese here and in Japanese, consonants and vowels are pretty much pronounced the same in all cases (save for "n").

Marijuana isn't even pronounced the same as it is in Spanish. I think the "mari" is pronounced mah-ree, not mar-uh.

I pronounce it "mah-ree", but the point that I'm trying to get across is that no one pronounces is "mah-ree-jew-ah-na". We basically just use the Spanish pronounciation.

Anyways, people can spell their names however they choose to. I have a friend named Daryk, and a friend named Mykaela. Are those spellings not "correct"?

What? Those are the spelling their parents gave them. It has got nothing to do with transliterations or romanizations.

Is Leiji Matsumoto spelling HIS name wrong, too, just because he doesn't use "Revised Hepburn" like you do?

See, the thing with transliterations is that you can't change the pronounciation of the word. "R" sounds in Japanese sound somewhat like "l" sounds in English, so the pronounciation of Leiji hasn't really been changed.


However, "ou" in Japanese sounds nothing like "ou" in English and "ou" in Japanese sounds nothing like "uu" in Japanese. "Ou" and "uu" aren't interchangable like "r" and "l". So using "GOKOU" is incorrect, because you've changed the pronounciation.


And yes, I like pretty much everyone who studies Japanese, uses Hepburn. I don't know anyone in this day and age that uses Kunrei-shiki or Nihon-shiki. Besides, we're talking about transliterations here, not romanizations.

[SaiyamanMS]

Okay... Let's say I was to transliterate "ピカチュウ" as "Peekachu", instead of "Pikachu". The "Pee" in "Peekachu" would still be pronounced as "ピ" rather than "ペー", right? Same for the "kou" in "Gokou". The "kou" is still "くう" rather than "こう".

[linkdude20002001]

See, the thing with transliterations is that you can't change the pronunciation of the word. "R" sounds in Japanese sound somewhat like "l" sounds in English, so the pronunciation of Leiji hasn't really been changed.

However, "ou" in Japanese sounds nothing like "ou" in English and "ou" in Japanese sounds nothing like "uu" in Japanese. "Ou" and "uu" aren't interchangeable like "r" and "l". So using "GOKOU" is incorrect, because you've changed the pronunciation.

And yes, I like pretty much everyone who studies Japanese, uses Hepburn. I don't know anyone in this day and age that uses Kunrei-shiki or Nihon-shiki. Besides, we're talking about transliterations here, not romanizations.

Exactly; transliterations. Why can't 悟空 be transliterated, instead of romanized? As long as it keeps the pronunciation (which is the purpose of transliterating), I see no reason why it should be considered "wrong". Just people some YOU (and Hujio, apparently) see "Gokou" and pronounce it ゴコウ (GO-KO-U) instead of ゴクウ (GO-KU-U), doesn't mean that's the intended pronunciation. That spelling was meant to be an "English spelling" that conveys the Japanese pronunciation of 悟空, and certainly no one in Japan would "Gokou" and pronounce it ゴコウ (GO-KO-U). They know it's just the "English spelling", and it just makes sense to them, and to myself.

It's wrong to use when referring to the Anime or Manga, because "Yu-Gi-Oh!" (yes, with the exclamation mark) is the official romanization of the series that has consistently been used on official media both in Japan and all around the world.

The correctness of "Yuugiou" or any other romanization has nothing to do with it, and this also isn't a instance where four or so different romanizations have appeared on official media, like with "Krillin" or "Goku".

You're contradicting yourself here. Correctness doesn't matter, and official spellings top all? In that case, should the only "correct" spelling be Gokuh? That's how Toriyama writes it. It's not 100% consistent, but I think the one time he used "Goku" was just an accident. He's not really consistent on anything. Just look at poor Karin; he can't make up his mind on what color he is. And just so you know, Bulma changes the pronunciation from what should be "Blooma".

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Exactly; transliterations. Why can't 悟空 be transliterated, instead of romanized? As long as it keeps the pronunciation (which is the purpose of transliterating), I see no reason why it should be considered "wrong". Just people some YOU (and Hujio, apparently) see "Gokou" and pronounce it ゴコウ (GO-KO-U) instead of ゴクウ (GO-KU-U), doesn't mean that's the intended pronunciation. That spelling was meant to be an "English spelling" that conveys the Japanese pronunciation of 悟空, and certainly no one in Japan would "Gokou" and pronounce it ゴコウ (GO-KO-U). They know it's just the "English spelling", and it just makes sense to them, and to myself.

But "GOKOU" changes the pronounciation, meaning that it isn't a correct transliteration. "GOKOU" would be pronounced "Gokoh" because it is a word of Japanese origin and should be pronounced the Japanese way. Anyone with even a basic knowledge of the Japanese language would know that when they see "ou" in romanized Japanese, they should pronounce it as "oh". Heck, even an Anime fan would know this through series like "Ikkitousen" and "Nabari no Ou".


As for the "GOKOU would be pronounced Gokuu in English" argument, let's say I wasn't an Anime fan and I didn't know any Japanese and I saw the word "GOKOU". I would probably pronounce it "Gokow", because in most cases, "ou" in English would be pronounced as "ow". This is evident in words like: "doubt", "count", "aloud", "abound", "douse", "drought", "flour" and "foul".

You're contradicting yourself here. Correctness doesn't matter, and official spellings top all? In that case, should the only "correct" spelling be Gokuh? That's how Toriyama writes it. It's not 100% consistent, but I think the one time he used "Goku" was just an accident. He's not really consistent on anything. Just look at poor Karin; he can't make up his mind on what color he is. And just so you know, Bulma changes the pronunciation from what should be "Blooma".

As I said before, this isn't a case where four different spellings have appeared officially, like Goku or Krillin (Goku, Gokuu, Gokuh, GOKOU, Kuririn, Kulilin, Klilyn, Krillin). One spelling has always been consistently used, not only by the creator, but by pretty much everyone. If you were romanizing the Kanji for "Game King" outside the context of the series, it would be okay to use "Yuugiou", but if you were referring to the series, it just simply wouldn't be right to use anything other than "Yu-Gi-Oh!".

[Puto]

Gokû's name has been written in all kinds of ways in official material. In such a case, you can't really look to the author for "the right way to write it", given that the author isn't consistent, which probably translates to "he doesn't care". Yu-Gi-Oh! is a very consistent spelling, on the other hand.

[alakazam^]

Exactly; transliterations. Why can't 悟空 be transliterated, instead of romanized? As long as it keeps the pronunciation (which is the purpose of transliterating), I see no reason why it should be considered "wrong". Just people some YOU (and Hujio, apparently) see "Gokou" and pronounce it ゴコウ (GO-KO-U) instead of ゴクウ (GO-KU-U), doesn't mean that's the intended pronunciation. That spelling was meant to be an "English spelling" that conveys the Japanese pronunciation of 悟空, and certainly no one in Japan would "Gokou" and pronounce it ゴコウ (GO-KO-U). They know it's just the "English spelling", and it just makes sense to them, and to myself.

It makes sense to you because you are a native English speaker and you know how the name is supposed to be pronouced. I doubt that most non-English speakers would see Gok0u written as-is and figure out it should be pronouced as Goku. It might not be a wrong transliteration but if the supposed intended language is English and not even English speaking people know right away what the correct pronounciation is, then it doesn't seem to be that efficient (and correct).

[Olivier Hague]

Anyone with even a basic knowledge of the Japanese language would know that when they see "ou" in romanized Japanese, they should pronounce it as "oh". Heck, even an Anime fan would know this through series like "Ikkitousen" and "Nabari no Ou".

Well, maybe it would take more than a "basic knowledge of Japanese" to realize that "ou" doesn't necessarily imply a long "o" sound... How would your anime fan pronounce the last name "Inoue", for example?
"Ou" = long o sound? Not necessarily, no. 'Depends on the context and the romanization system you're using (if you're using an actual system at all: I don't believe Tôei was, here).

[linkdude20002001]

But "GOKOU" changes the pronunciation, meaning that it isn't a correct transliteration. "GOKOU" would be pronounced "Gokoh" because it is a word of Japanese origin and should be pronounced the Japanese way. Anyone with even a basic knowledge of the Japanese language would know that when they see "ou" in romanized Japanese, they should pronounce it as "oh". Heck, even an Anime fan would know this through series like "Ikkitousen" and "Nabari no Ou".


As for the "GOKOU would be pronounced Gokuu in English" argument, let's say I wasn't an Anime fan and I didn't know any Japanese and I saw the word "GOKOU". I would probably pronounce it "Gokow", because in most cases, "ou" in English would be pronounced as "ow". This is evident in words like: "doubt", "count", "aloud", "abound", "douse", "drought", "flour" and "foul".

Again, to "transliterate" is to write out a word or name as it sounds, using the Latin alphabet. For example, チャラ・ヘッチャラ (Chara Hetchara), "hetchara" meaning "no worries", is transliterated as Cha-la Head-cha-la. Similarly, 悟空 is transliterated as Gokou.

To "romanization" is to write out a word or name as it's written in Japanese, using the Latin alphabet.

Also, 孫悟空 is a Chinese name, not Japanese. It SHOULD be romanized as Sun-Wukong, but that's not how the Japanese pronounce, so...

And just so you know, English is a terrible language. Some might see Gokou and pronounce it GO-KOU (as in the English words "go" and "cow"). Just look up "cow" at Dictionary.com, and look at the pronunciation guide for that word; it's "KOU", just like the ending of Gokou.

As I said before, this isn't a case where four different spellings have appeared officially, like Goku or Krillin (Goku, Gokuu, Gokuh, GOKOU, Kuririn, Kulilin, Klilyn, Krillin). One spelling has always been consistently used, not only by the creator, but by pretty much everyone. If you were romanizing the Kanji for "Game King" outside the context of the series, it would be okay to use "Yuugiou", but if you were referring to the series, it just simply wouldn't be right to use anything other than "Yu-Gi-Oh!".

But all those different spelling are from different sources. If you were just reading Toriyama's comic, and nothing else, you'd see Gokuh, Kulilin, etc. The one case where he used "Goku" was probably as accident, considering he uses "Gokuh" nine different times.

It makes sense to you because you are a native English speaker and you know how the name is supposed to be pronouced. I doubt that most non-English speakers would see Gok0u written as-is and figure out it should be pronouced as Goku. It might not be a wrong transliteration but if the supposed intended language is English and not even English speaking people know right away what the correct pronounciation is, then it doesn't seem to be that efficient (and correct).

English isn't effective and correct. It's a horrible language. Though, at least Gokou does seem to be pronounced GOH-KOO by native English speakers (that don't have knowledge of Japanese pronunciation). A good example of this is my mom, who, having never seen the name written in any shape or form, automatically writes it as Gokou. And as I already mentioned, the Japanese would of course pronounce it as GOH-KOO, and not GOH-KOH, because they understand that it's the "English spelling" of 悟空.