Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 23 - DB episode 101-105

[ArmenianPepsi]

Saiyan arc junks Lunch, and introduces Gohan and aliens, Freeza arc introduces Vegeta as a protagonist, and Super Saiyan tranformations...

Is there any known reason that Lunch was ditched? I quite liked her character and she always felt like a natural part of the main cast.

Also sry KBABZ, I should adjust my old man glasses and learn to read the fine print. Thank you too for these threads.

[Robo4900]

Is there any known reason that Lunch was ditched? I quite liked her character and she always felt like a natural part of the main cast.

I think Toriyama decided he didn't have any use for her in the cast. He also semi-retired Tenshinhan and Yamucha, I guess. Dunno why Lunch specifically was completely cast aside, never to appear again. Maybe Yamucha's fear of women was an autobiographical element of Dragon Ball, and Toriyama simply couldn't handle having her around in a regular role, in addition to Chichi and Bulma.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Is there any known reason that Lunch was ditched? I quite liked her character and she always felt like a natural part of the main cast.

I think Toriyama decided he didn't have any use for her in the cast. He also semi-retired Tenshinhan and Yamucha, I guess. Dunno why Lunch specifically was completely cast aside, never to appear again. Maybe Yamucha's fear of women was an autobiographical element of Dragon Ball, and Toriyama simply couldn't handle having her around in a regular role, in addition to Chichi and Bulma.

Then of course the only appearances in person Lunch actually had in Z were the one filler episode with Ten and Chaozu, and near the show's end with her contributing to Goku's Genki Dama against Majin Buu. Note that both of those were anime only although Toriyama had actually considered the latter at one point when nearing the end of the manga's serialization though he didn't actually follow through as No. 17 was used instead.

[ArmenianPepsi]

Is there any known reason that Lunch was ditched? I quite liked her character and she always felt like a natural part of the main cast.

I think Toriyama decided he didn't have any use for her in the cast. He also semi-retired Tenshinhan and Yamucha, I guess. Dunno why Lunch specifically was completely cast aside, never to appear again. Maybe Yamucha's fear of women was an autobiographical element of Dragon Ball, and Toriyama simply couldn't handle having her around in a regular role, in addition to Chichi and Bulma.

That would seem the most logical. I guess Chichi took over the slot Lunch left behind as the second supporting female character. So the loss is not too great in my books.

[KBABZ]

Is there any known reason that Lunch was ditched? I quite liked her character and she always felt like a natural part of the main cast.

Also sry KBABZ, I should adjust my old man glasses and learn to read the fine print. Thank you too for these threads.

Regarding Lunch, my understanding was that Toriyama felt that she didn't make sense in the Saiyan arc's cast, which does have a limited cast initially: Yamcha, Tien and Chaiotzu don't show up in the manga until they join up with Piccolo and Gohan. The infamous "I forgot about her" part was most likely a result of moving the story to Namek: that one is an even MORE limited cast of Gohan, Krillin, Bulma and Goku (+ Dende) that is set on another planet, so nobody can really join them. That arc was infamously quite long for its day, so by the time they all returned to Earth, it's no wonder Toriyama forgot this rather minor and influence-less side-character.

---

And thanks! It was Robo's idea to do this and I'm technically not watching along except for the filler arcs. Robo's trivia tends to be Blue Water dub trivia, music trivia, and stuff picked up from the DB Wiki that's actually true. I've read the first half of the manga (Pilaf to Namek) so I can also make some great manga/anime comparisons like with Daimao's backstory this week. I'm also a fan of "comparison" trivia, like where each anime was at with its 100th episode, or how the fight with Tao introduced MANY elements that would become famous later down the line.

The Filler breakdowns meanwhile come from my "Dragon Ball Kai: The First Chapters" changelog document. That's the document I made listing every single change I made in that fan edit (which I made by watching the show whilst having the manga open in a second window), which means that, for OG-DB at least, I can get really particular about bits that have been added and how the show may have changed the context of something, like Tien retracting his extra arms.

[ArmenianPepsi]

Is there any known reason that Lunch was ditched? I quite liked her character and she always felt like a natural part of the main cast.

Also sry KBABZ, I should adjust my old man glasses and learn to read the fine print. Thank you too for these threads.

Regarding Lunch, my understanding was that Toriyama felt that she didn't make sense in the Saiyan arc's cast, which does have a limited cast initially: Yamcha, Tien and Chaiotzu don't show up in the manga until they join up with Piccolo and Gohan. The infamous "I forgot about her" part was most likely a result of moving the story to Namek: that one is an even MORE limited cast of Gohan, Krillin, Bulma and Goku (+ Dende) that is set on another planet, so nobody can really join them. That arc was infamously quite long for its day, so by the time they all returned to Earth, it's no wonder Toriyama forgot this rather minor and influence-less side-character.

---

And thanks! It was Robo's idea to do this and I'm technically not watching along except for the filler arcs. Robo's trivia tends to be Blue Water dub trivia, music trivia, and stuff picked up from the DB Wiki that's actually true. I've read the first half of the manga (Pilaf to Namek) so I can also make some great manga/anime comparisons like with Daimao's backstory this week. I'm also a fan of "comparison" trivia, like where each anime was at with its 100th episode, or how the fight with Tao introduced MANY elements that would become famous later down the line.

The Filler breakdowns meanwhile come from my "Dragon Ball Kai: The First Chapters" changelog document. That's the document I made listing every single change I made in that fan edit (which I made by watching the show whilst having the manga open in a second window), which means that, for OG-DB at least, I can get really particular about bits that have been added and how the show may have changed the context of something, like Tien retracting his extra arms.

Wow you are a real DB fanatic, people with as much passion as you are the reason it's all lasted 30+ years. You must have some real encyclopedic knowledge.

But speaking of Lunch one last time, today I did notice that DB Kai actually gives her an appearance in the credits sequence next to Yamcha, despite the fact that the one episode of Z that even featured her was cut.

https://gyazo.com/408abc50af0cde13f53eae8ee0dceb75

[KBABZ]

Wow you are a real DB fanatic, people with as much passion as you are the reason it's all lasted 30+ years. You must have some real encyclopedic knowledge.

Thank you! If you want to learn a LOT about Dragon Ball, do yourself a favour and read the excellent articles written on the main Kanzenshuu site. My favourite ones are...

• Newbie Guide
• Animation Production Guide
• Battle Power Guide
• Gods and Cosmos Guide
• Intended Endings Guide
• Rumour Guide
• A Different Missing Link: From Zero to Goku (Again)
• DB30YEARS: Special 30th Anniversary Magazine
• Kenji Yamamoto Retrospective
• My Dragon Box Isn't Perfect?!
• Fan Thoughts: The Dragon Ball Ending

But speaking of Lunch one last time, today I did notice that DB Kai actually gives her an appearance in the credits sequence next to Yamcha, despite the fact that the one episode of Z that even featured her was cut.

https://gyazo.com/408abc50af0cde13f53eae8ee0dceb75

Yeah it is odd, although it is nice if you're coming off of OG-DB. As I recall Turtle doesn't feature at all outside of the very first episode where Gohan plays with him for a bit, and he appears in the group shot too!

[ArmenianPepsi]

Wow you are a real DB fanatic, people with as much passion as you are the reason it's all lasted 30+ years. You must have some real encyclopedic knowledge.

Thank you! If you want to learn a LOT about Dragon Ball, do yourself a favour and read the excellent articles written on the main Kanzenshuu site. My favourite ones are...

• Newbie Guide
• Animation Production Guide
• Battle Power Guide
• Gods and Cosmos Guide
• Intended Endings Guide
• Rumour Guide
• A Different Missing Link: From Zero to Goku (Again)
• DB30YEARS: Special 30th Anniversary Magazine
• Kenji Yamamoto Retrospective
• My Dragon Box Isn't Perfect?!
• Fan Thoughts: The Dragon Ball Ending

I will totally look through these. Perfect for some late night reading. And as for Turtle, I think you see him react a couple of times while watching the battle with the Saiyans too.

[Robo4900]

Is there any known reason that Lunch was ditched? I quite liked her character and she always felt like a natural part of the main cast.

Also sry KBABZ, I should adjust my old man glasses and learn to read the fine print. Thank you too for these threads.

Regarding Lunch, my understanding was that Toriyama felt that she didn't make sense in the Saiyan arc's cast, which does have a limited cast initially: Yamcha, Tien and Chaiotzu don't show up in the manga until they join up with Piccolo and Gohan. The infamous "I forgot about her" part was most likely a result of moving the story to Namek: that one is an even MORE limited cast of Gohan, Krillin, Bulma and Goku (+ Dende) that is set on another planet, so nobody can really join them. That arc was infamously quite long for its day, so by the time they all returned to Earth, it's no wonder Toriyama forgot this rather minor and influence-less side-character.

It is worth noting that Toriyama was the one to suggest that Toei bring back Lunch for the filler in the Saiyan arc, and the Namek arc was only shortly after, and he remembered her again all the way in the Boo arc, even though he ultimately replaced her with #17, so... I doubt he really "forgot" about her... Maybe in the Cell arc he did, but by then, she was already long since retired.

There's a rather good breakdown of Toriyama "forgetting about Lunch" in the Kanzenshuu rumours guide: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/rumor/characters/

And thanks! It was Robo's idea to do this and I'm technically not watching along except for the filler arcs. Robo's trivia tends to be Blue Water dub trivia, music trivia, and stuff picked up from the DB Wiki that's actually true.

Indeed. I don't have much to say to the rest of your post, but I thought I should take a moment to talk about how I write my trivia, for anyone interested... I do examine the DB Wikia trivia as closely as I reasonably can, but to be honest, for all its faults, DB Wikia tends to have some pretty decent trivia, it's just very dub-focussed, and often they load their trivia sections up with inane shit like an extensive breakdown of how Bulma's underwear changes throughout the Pirate Cave storyline (yes, really).
I also shared some storyboards in a previous thread (I forget which) in one of the trivia sections. Initially, the DB Wikia pointed me in that direction, but they were reuploads with no source/credit listed, so I had to do a little reverse image searching to find the original source, which turned out to be the Twitter account of someone who owns some storyboards. So... Sometimes there's solid information, but not properly credited/sourced, which takes a little detective work to fix up.
There's also info on the Funi edited TV dub, which I take as read, since Funi's TV edited dub of DB is not preserved anywhere, so it's impossible to check (though in theory, there's the opportunity for extensive notes on this in Z, particularly everything up until Goku fights Butta and Jheese; there are a lot of interesting edits in the Saban dub, which covered that material, and I have easy access to it. Though most likely I'll try pulling notes from elsewhere online; I imagine there are extensive guides on this stuff on places like dbzuncensored).

The BW dub trivia mostly comes down to me looking at what the DB Wikia points out as Funi dub changes (which it does frequently list, and they are frequently quite interesting), then digging out my personal copies of the BW dub to compare the lines. Though usually this just amounts to me saying "Blue Water's dub does not contain this change" in one of several different ways.

The music trivia is usually from various sources; DB Wikia sometimes mentions it, I have a friend who's a bit of an expert, and has given me some interesting info on the subject, and I often make heavy reference to Kenisu's website.

[Robo4900]

The little moment between Yamucha and Tenshinhan is one of my favourite little things in the end of the 22nd Tenkaichi. Says it all, really; the gang wholeheartedly accept Tenshinhan. Their kindness humbles him.

Also, holy shit... Everything from the moment Kuririn says he's gonna get Goku's things for him, up to the end of the episode... Chilling to the bone.

I love episode 102 so much. We get introduced to Kikuchi's Piccolo theme, in all its malicious glory, Piccolo himself proves utterly horrifying, Roshi's own master being helpless against him.
Goku's angry like we've never seen him.
I like Roshi's little explanation as to why Crane went evil here.
Man, this episode is so great. Not only is it a great setup for the rest of the arc ahead of us, it retroactively adds even more weight to what just happened at the tournament, Roshi is the best he'll ever be in the franchise... And yet, we still have goofy stuff like the cutesy rice cooker as the key to Mutaito's ultimate technique... Man, this episode.
Also, fun subtle touch: Tenshinhan has no idea what Dragon Balls are. I forgot about that until just now, when the scene happened.

Man, Tambourine killing Kuririn is such a brutal scene. I forgot about that one... It's hard to watch, honestly.
And Tambourine is so horrifying. Man, this arc is so brutal. This has to be the hardest Goku ever lost.

I really appreciate the announcer talking to the gang, and accepting their advice, and talking them up a little. And Lunch's sadness over Kuririn's death... And Ten and Chaozu deciding to go with Roshi... I love how the side-characters are used in this arc. I honestly think this is the last time the full roster of characters is used to its fullest potential. By the nature of the story, most of the cast become cheerleaders in the next tournament, then a sizeable chunk of the cast are basically written out in the Saiyan arc, and only show up for token appearances from then on.

[ArmenianPepsi]

The little moment between Yamucha and Tenshinhan is one of my favourite little things in the end of the 22nd Tenkaichi. Says it all, really; the gang wholeheartedly accept Tenshinhan. Their kindness humbles him.

Also, holy shit... Everything from the moment Kuririn says he's gonna get Goku's things for him, up to the end of the episode... Chilling to the bone.

I love episode 102 so much. We get introduced to Kikuchi's Piccolo theme, in all its malicious glory, Piccolo himself proves utterly horrifying, Roshi's own master being helpless against him.
Goku's angry like we've never seen him.
I like Roshi's little explanation as to why Crane went evil here.
Man, this episode is so great. Not only is it a great setup for the rest of the arc ahead of us, it retroactively adds even more weight to what just happened at the tournament, Roshi is the best he'll ever be in the franchise... And yet, we still have goofy stuff like the cutesy rice cooker as the key to Mutaito's ultimate technique... Man, this episode.
Also, fun subtle touch: Tenshinhan has no idea what Dragon Balls are. I forgot about that until just now, when the scene happened.

Man, Tambourine killing Kuririn is such a brutal scene. I forgot about that one... It's hard to watch, honestly.
And Tambourine is so horrifying. Man, this arc is so brutal. This has to be the hardest Goku ever lost.

I really appreciate the announcer talking to the gang, and accepting their advice, and talking them up a little. And Lunch's sadness over Kuririn's death... And Ten and Chaozu deciding to go with Roshi... I love how the side-characters are used in this arc. I honestly think this is the last time the full roster of characters is used to its fullest potential. By the nature of the story, most of the cast become cheerleaders in the next tournament, then a sizeable chunk of the cast are basically written out in the Saiyan arc, and only show up for token appearances from then on.

You speak the truth. Tambourine is one of the best secondary villains in my opinion. He isnt just another grunt for the main baddy that gets immediately wiped out.

[KBABZ]

So what are all of our opinions on the anime's expansion of Roshi's exposition on Daimao? As I stated in the Trivia, the anime expanded what was basically a single page that focused more on Daimao's defeat to a full-on mini storyline showing the demons burning a city, taking on an army, Roshi and Shen actively fighting together, Mutaito's exile, Shen's turn to evil, and THEN the actual defeat.

It's neat stuff, but personally I feel it radically re-contextualizes Daimao's reign of terror. While the manga only shows a single panel of Daimao's silhouette looming over a crowd of terrified citizens running away, the exact nature of this is left rather unclear, so I always figured it was like, a week? Possibly in a somewhat localized area? The anime bumps this up to nigh apocalyptic levels that lasts several years due to Mutaito's exile. Personally I find this kinda breaks the earlier parts of the story simply because I find it really unbelievable that everyone just kinda forgot about that and no sign of it is ever alluded to at all. It also further breaks the 23rd TB regarding Jr.'s disguise, which was already somewhat flimsy in the first place.

[MyVisionity]

So what are all of our opinions on the anime's expansion of Roshi's exposition on Daimao? As I stated in the Trivia, the anime expanded what was basically a single page that focused more on Daimao's defeat to a full-on mini storyline showing the demons burning a city, taking on an army, Roshi and Shen actively fighting together, Mutaito's exile, Shen's turn to evil, and THEN the actual defeat.

It's neat stuff, but personally I feel it radically re-contextualizes Daimao's reign of terror. While the manga only shows a single panel of Daimao's silhouette looming over a crowd of terrified citizens running away, the exact nature of this is left rather unclear, so I always figured it was like, a week? Possibly in a somewhat localized area? The anime bumps this up to nigh apocalyptic levels that lasts several years due to Mutaito's exile. Personally I find this kinda breaks the earlier parts of the story simply because I find it really unbelievable that everyone just kinda forgot about that and no sign of it is ever alluded to at all. It also further breaks the 23rd TB regarding Jr.'s disguise, which was already somewhat flimsy in the first place.

I like the Daimao flashbacks. As I said earlier, I enjoy seeing his soldiers terrorize everybody and destroying everything. I love the imagery of Daimao running through the countryside burning everything. The Mutaito stuff is some of the best, as it gives more Roshi backstory without giving too much.

I haven't read those manga chapters but it doesn't sound like the deviation is especially significant.

Why wouldn't they forget about it? It was hundreds of years ago. The world had recovered and moved on. Plus Daimao was apparently remembered as an old legend, so it wasn't completely forgotten.

I thought Ma Junior's disguise was good enough for its purpose.

[KBABZ]

I haven't read those manga chapters but it doesn't sound like the deviation is especially significant.

Here's how that scene was covered in the manga, from ViZ's translation. For context I kept the rows of panels immediately before and after for context regarding how it flows into the scene in the present.

I just noticed that Mutaito is wearing the Kame symbol! Logical, but neat to see nonetheless! Also note Crane's rather unapproving glance to Roshi in the second-to-last panel, which he isn't depicted doing in the anime version of the flashback (suggesting that in the manga, he didn't like Roshi before Daimao showed up).

Spoiler:

[MyVisionity]

Here's how that scene was covered in the manga, from ViZ's translation. For context I kept the rows of panels immediately before and after for context regarding how it flows into the scene in the present.

Thanks! I still think that the anime version works as a general expansion of the manga flashback, without really deviating from anything.

I just noticed that Mutaito is wearing the Kame symbol! Logical, but neat to see nonetheless! Also note Crane's rather unapproving glance to Roshi in the second-to-last panel, which he isn't depicted doing in the anime version of the flashback (suggesting that in the manga, he didn't like Roshi before Daimao showed up).

Mutaito is wearing the 武 crest (mu or bu, "martial") not the 亀 crest (kame, "turtle"), just like in the anime.

I can buy that Crane didn't like Roshi prior to his turn to evil, as it makes sense that they would have been rivals while under Mutaito.

[Robo4900]

Spoiler:

So what are all of our opinions on the anime's expansion of Roshi's exposition on Daimao? As I stated in the Trivia, the anime expanded what was basically a single page that focused more on Daimao's defeat to a full-on mini storyline showing the demons burning a city, taking on an army, Roshi and Shen actively fighting together, Mutaito's exile, Shen's turn to evil, and THEN the actual defeat.

It's neat stuff, but personally I feel it radically re-contextualizes Daimao's reign of terror. While the manga only shows a single panel of Daimao's silhouette looming over a crowd of terrified citizens running away, the exact nature of this is left rather unclear, so I always figured it was like, a week? Possibly in a somewhat localized area? The anime bumps this up to nigh apocalyptic levels that lasts several years due to Mutaito's exile. Personally I find this kinda breaks the earlier parts of the story simply because I find it really unbelievable that everyone just kinda forgot about that and no sign of it is ever alluded to at all. It also further breaks the 23rd TB regarding Jr.'s disguise, which was already somewhat flimsy in the first place.

I like the Daimao flashbacks. As I said earlier, I enjoy seeing his soldiers terrorize everybody and destroying everything. I love the imagery of Daimao running through the countryside burning everything. The Mutaito stuff is some of the best, as it gives more Roshi backstory without giving too much.

I haven't read those manga chapters but it doesn't sound like the deviation is especially significant.

Why wouldn't they forget about it? It was hundreds of years ago. The world had recovered and moved on. Plus Daimao was apparently remembered as an old legend, so it wasn't completely forgotten.

I thought Ma Junior's disguise was good enough for its purpose.

Agreed.

I mean, Roshi is, what, 300? And this was when he was in his 20s or 30s? So, I don't see the problem.

As for the scenes themselves, I quite like it. Makes Piccolo feel like such a huge, unstoppable threat, which the gang are hopeless against. It's great stuff, IMO.

[KBABZ]

Also shout-out to Daimao burning Holland to the ground for kinda no reason, haha.

[ArmenianPepsi]

Also shout-out to Daimao burning Holland to the ground for kinda no reason, haha.

Maybe Daimao just had something against windmills all along.

[KBABZ]

Oh! I also just realized: Daimao's initial introduction in Chapter 135 doesn't quite reveal his face or general appearance: we don't get a good look at him until the following Chapter, 136.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

So what are all of our opinions on the anime's expansion of Roshi's exposition on Daimao? As I stated in the Trivia, the anime expanded what was basically a single page that focused more on Daimao's defeat to a full-on mini storyline showing the demons burning a city, taking on an army, Roshi and Shen actively fighting together, Mutaito's exile, Shen's turn to evil, and THEN the actual defeat.

It's neat stuff, but personally I feel it radically re-contextualizes Daimao's reign of terror.

I like them, Kuririn's death set this arc in motion but Roshi's exposition were necessary for building the sense of terror and despair that should be expected from the return of a demon king and I'm glad the anime added it. It's something I could imagine Eiichiro Oda doing if he created Dragon Ball to plant the seeds for this arc and the more dire consequences we can expect later on.