Daima to Super Connection

[super michael]

I don't think Toriyama really cared for particular details such as the form Goku used against the antagonist before he gets yet another form. What I'm saying is that in Toriyama's "canon" aka his story of Dragon Ball in his head, Goku probably did in fact use SS4 against Beerus and then still needed SSG, just as in Toriyama's canon Shin and Kibito have been separate since the Boo arc ending.

Daima shares too many details with Super stuff for me to think Toriyama completely erased it from his mind. Not just the big stuff like the cosmology but even little details such as Bulma's obsession with cosmetics.

Ironically, her buying the cosmetic bugs could be seen as a contradiction to her asking for Shenlong to make her younger later on.

With the bugs she doesn't need Shenron or Dr Hedo at all.
If she has 10 bugs, that can restore 100 years.

[FinalForumPodcast]

It’s not a mystery he was disappointed with Super’s quality.

...which he said where and when?

[Yuji]

I don't think Toriyama really cared for particular details such as the form Goku used against the antagonist before he gets yet another form. What I'm saying is that in Toriyama's "canon" aka his story of Dragon Ball in his head, Goku probably did in fact use SS4 against Beerus and then still needed SSG, just as in Toriyama's canon Shin and Kibito have been separate since the Boo arc ending.

Daima shares too many details with Super stuff for me to think Toriyama completely erased it from his mind. Not just the big stuff like the cosmology but even little details such as Bulma's obsession with cosmetics.

Ironically, her buying the cosmetic bugs could be seen as a contradiction to her asking for Shenlong to make her younger later on.

I agree but I think it's not exactly the same. The bugs affect the skin, but the wishes she makes are for eyelashes, her butt, etc, different body parts. You can argue this is where her obsession with cosmetics and looking younger started, which wasn't a trait the original series Bulma shared, at least not to this degree.

[Hugo Boss]

It’s not a mystery he was disappointed with Super’s quality.

...which he said where and when?

This is from the opening comment from the 30th anniversary Super History Book.

Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime, so it seems that Dragon Ball has grown on me [so] much that I can't leave it alone.

[FinalForumPodcast]

It’s not a mystery he was disappointed with Super’s quality.

...which he said where and when?

This is from the opening comment from the 30th anniversary Super History Book.

Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime, so it seems that Dragon Ball has grown on me [so] much that I can't leave it alone.

Kanzenshuu's own translation of that interview makes it a little debatable what exactly he meant with that comment:
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... roduction/
"I had put Dragon Ball behind me, but seeing how much that live-action film ticked me off, and how I revised that script for the anime movie and complained about the quality of the TV anime, I suppose somewhere along the line it’s become a series I like too much to ever leave alone."

"complained about" past tense; and then the notes say he never liked the overly heroic portrayal of Goku in the anime in general. And he also could potentially have been talking about Kai.
So it's unclear whether he specifically meant Super, and even if he did, it's further unclear in what MANNER it was dissatisfying to him, and whether that would cause him to think of it as "non-canon" and something he needed to spin away from and inspire him to do Daima.

Toriyama, like all Japanese people, was GENERALLY cagey with any criticism (making his scathing comments against the live action movie even more of a big deal), and generally aloof in his interviews. It's difficult to KNOW what his intentions were when he would make comments like this.

[VegettoEX]

Without elaborating further (acknowledging that this is not necessarily as helpful as it could be, but wanting to clarify for the record): he was referring to Super.

[Muffin Man]

and then the notes say he never liked the overly heroic portrayal of Goku in the anime in general.

Interestingly Goku was quite heroic in Daima when he came across those demon realm natives who were getting their life force drained by the soldiers.

To be honest I'm not exactly sure what parts of the original anime made Goku more heroic. In the manga, whenever Goku comes across people in trouble he always wants to help them and gets mad at the villains for hurting them, so he's always been heroic when he happens to come across trouble. I don't recall any filler scenes where he was going around being, like, extra heroic (like he's never been a superhero who goes around seeking out crime, unlike Gohan). I know the original English dub loved to give Goku uncharacteristically superhero-ish dialogue, but that couldn't have been what AT was talking about. What did he mean exactly?

[super michael]

and then the notes say he never liked the overly heroic portrayal of Goku in the anime in general.

Interestingly Goku was quite heroic in Daima when he came across those demon realm natives who were getting their life force drained by the soldiers.

To be honest I'm not exactly sure what parts of the original anime made Goku more heroic. In the manga, whenever Goku comes across people in trouble he always wants to help them and gets mad at the villains for hurting them, so he's always been heroic when he happens to come across trouble. I don't recall any filler scenes where he was going around being, like, extra heroic (like he's never been a superhero who goes around seeking out crime, unlike Gohan). I know the original English dub loved to give Goku uncharacteristically superhero-ish dialogue, but that couldn't have been what AT was talking about. What did he mean exactly?

Goku helped the turtle return to the ocean, with no expectation of a reward or battle.
Goku helping the people in Muscle Tower.
Goku helping Upa revive his father.
Goku getting upset at Cell for killing soldiers that he didn't know, which got Goku to try and reactive the Dragon Balls.

Goku is selfless in the manga, he does heroic things to the point that he sacrificed his life two times. He put the need to train other than fight Boo himself, since he knew the earth needed strong warriors, for when he can't return to the world of the living.

No other hero tries to resurrect those that died, other than Rimuru Tempest the slime.

[Zephyr]

The "Daima to Super Connection" really refers to two distinct things.
1: the works, as they actually exist on screen and page
2: the things that happen in the works, as they existed in Toriyama's head

As far as individual works go, the two television shows clearly do not take place in the same continuity, in the same way that the Super manga and Super films don't take place in the same continuity as one another, or either television show. Three different versions of Battle of Gods are three different versions of Battle of Gods. Two different versions of Super Hero are two different versions of Super Hero.

But that's hardly compelling evidence that the "official history" of Dragon Ball post-Boo as it existed in Toriyama's head didn't involve Goku using Super Saiyan God to fight Beerus, or Orange Piccolo and Beast Gohan fighting Cell Max. Works themselves not actually fitting in the same continuity as one another does not entail that the broad strokes of the events depicted in them are not intended to.

---

Super didn't "get GT'd", because it was never in a position to "get GT'd"

Dragon Ball ended in 1995. Toei animation wanted to continue their animated adaptation of Dragon Ball, and so Dragon Ball GT was made as Toei's continuation of their anime. Toriyama has, to my knowledge, only ever said good things about it. That doesn't mean he'd have ever considered GT to be a stand-in for his own continuation of Dragon Ball. Toriyama had respect for the Bardock TV Special, but that didn't stop him from doing his own take on it later. So, even if he respected GT, that wouldn't be stopping him from making his own continuation of the Dragon Ball story that ignores it.

Which is pretty much what he did. Battle of Gods and Resurrection F were, among other things, Toriyama's own continuation of Dragon Ball. He then wanted those retold as TV anime story arcs. Broly and Super Hero were then continuations of that. These things have mutual contradictions, but that doesn't mean the one isn't meant to continue the other. Daima is another one of Toriyama's continuations of Dragon Ball. This has contradictions with pretty much everything produced before it (including the original comic), but that doesn't mean it isn't meant to be more of "Toriyama making a continuation of his story".

In this way, it makes sense to view Super as "Toriyama's own continuation of Dragon Ball alternative to GT", but doesn't extend to viewing Daima as "Toriyama's own continuation of Dragon Ball alternative to Super". Super was already his continuation, and Daima is simply more of that continuation.

This is why Olivu appearing in the Super manga isn't really at all like Gowasu appearing in Daima. Toyble referencing an anime-only character that someone else made decades prior is not the same as Toriyama referencing his own character that he made a few years prior.

---

What about the plotholes though?

Goku didn't use Super Saiyan 4 against Beerus on Kaio's planet, and Vegeta didn't use Super Saiyan 3 against Beerus at Bulma's birthday party, for the simple reason that Toriyama hadn't thought up them having those forms when those stories were made. It's the same reason Goku didn't use Super Saiyan 3 against Majin Vegeta, only Toriyama isn't still alive to cook up a questionably-satisfying in-universe explanation for it.

I've seen the point made that "oh, yeah, that's a Gowasu in Daima, but not our Gowasu". Okay? I guess in the same way that "that's a Geran in Super Hero, but not our Geran". What's even the point of bringing them up if you're not deliberately trying to reference the very recent thing that you contributed to the story? Clearly a version of the Tournament of Power happened prior to Super Hero, a fabled and mythical "version that Toriyama had in his head" as some have posited.

The most straightforward conclusion here is that "a version of Super happened after Daima, but not our version of Super". And all that seems to be different in that new version is Shin being unfused like on the Battle of Gods poster Toriyama drew, and Goku and Vegeta having different character designs when they get defeated by Beerus. Daima is not saving you from "re-color forms and Zeno destroying entire universes" being a part of Toriyama's own continuation of Dragon Ball, for all that something being a part of "Toriyama's own continuation of Dragon Ball" matters.

---

But what about the cannon???

Obviously, the area where things being or not being a part of "Toriyama's own continuation of Dragon Ball" matters to a lot of people is the "canon" question. But that doesn't really get off the ground for a couple of reasons.

One: I believe the word applies to specific stories or works, not nebulous events. Clearly nebulous events are meant to be part of "Dragon Ball's official history" (ie: "Toriyama" "Canon", or whatever), even if the works that depict them cannot have happened in the same continuity as one another. We have multiple works depicting the same "officially historical" events in mutually-exclusive ways, and it's not clear which of those works is "the canon one"; I doubt anyone involved in the production of Dragon Ball cares on that level.

Two: the very general notion isn't completely a non-factor in this IP. I maintain that anybody using the above paragraph to argue, for instance, that we cannot confidently infer that "Dragon Ball Evolution is non-canon" is really missing the forest for the trees.

---

All that being said, I could turn out to be totally wrong. It could turn out that we learn from Iyoku that Toriyama actually regretted how he had been continuing Dragon Ball's story and wanted to wipe it all away with one he might like more. I really doubt it, but I'll never say never.

Finally, while I think that Daima's TV anime clearly not sharing a continuity with Super's TV anime is not enough to save you from "re-color forms and Zeno destroying entire universes" being a part of "the official history" of Toriyama's own continuation of Dragon Ball...it is nice that Daima makes it incredibly easy to pretend that those were never made, if you hated Super that much. Having options can be fun.

[Muffin Man]

The "Daima to Super Connection" really refers to two distinct things.
1: the works, as they actually exist on screen and page
2: the things that happen in the works, as they existed in Toriyama's head

As far as individual works go, the two television shows clearly do not take place in the same continuity

Shoulda just left it at this and saved yourself some typing, this is the important bit.

[Zephyr]

The "Daima to Super Connection" really refers to two distinct things.
1: the works, as they actually exist on screen and page
2: the things that happen in the works, as they existed in Toriyama's head

As far as individual works go, the two television shows clearly do not take place in the same continuity

Shoulda just left it at this and saved yourself some typing, this is the important bit.

Maybe, but it's worth delving into and unpacking why it's even a conversation that people still see the need to have.

Plus I like writing. It helps me flesh out and refine my thoughts. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[FinalForumPodcast]

Without elaborating further (acknowledging that this is not necessarily as helpful as it could be, but wanting to clarify for the record): he was referring to Super.

Thanks for the clarification.


I'll still say I don't necessarily think "Disappointed with the way the Super anime turned out" means "Came up with Daima as a way to fix the canon" or whatever, but will admit I was wrong.

[FinalForumPodcast]

and then the notes say he never liked the overly heroic portrayal of Goku in the anime in general.

Interestingly Goku was quite heroic in Daima when he came across those demon realm natives who were getting their life force drained by the soldiers.

To be honest I'm not exactly sure what parts of the original anime made Goku more heroic. In the manga, whenever Goku comes across people in trouble he always wants to help them and gets mad at the villains for hurting them, so he's always been heroic when he happens to come across trouble. I don't recall any filler scenes where he was going around being, like, extra heroic (like he's never been a superhero who goes around seeking out crime, unlike Gohan). I know the original English dub loved to give Goku uncharacteristically superhero-ish dialogue, but that couldn't have been what AT was talking about. What did he mean exactly?

"Akira Toriyama does not make clear which particular anime series he is referencing. In 1996 Japanese WIRED Magazine interview, Toriyama mentioned how he had, “… always been dissatisfied with the ‘righteous hero’-type portrayal they gave him” in the animation"
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/
The specific quote is:
"Right. There’s how, basically, Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn’t fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys. So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of “poison” that slip in and out of sight among the shadows."
I've taken that to mean he thinks Goku has a bit more of an 'edge' in the manga. There's been a saying over the years that's something like "Goku does what's RIGHT, Gohan does what's GOOD" or something like that, to sort of draw the distinction. Goku will do the RIGHT thing when he comes across what he thinks of as the wrong thing, but he doesn't go out seeking to DO GOOD.

The anime (via filler) always shifted this slightly more towards the "do good" realm, in Toriyama's understanding, perhaps, and in the larger context of the interview, he was relating it to Japan's popularity polls and making a point about how he doesn't worry about such things, but sees its influence working on others, like editors and animation staff.

[Muffin Man]

and then the notes say he never liked the overly heroic portrayal of Goku in the anime in general.

Interestingly Goku was quite heroic in Daima when he came across those demon realm natives who were getting their life force drained by the soldiers.

To be honest I'm not exactly sure what parts of the original anime made Goku more heroic. In the manga, whenever Goku comes across people in trouble he always wants to help them and gets mad at the villains for hurting them, so he's always been heroic when he happens to come across trouble. I don't recall any filler scenes where he was going around being, like, extra heroic (like he's never been a superhero who goes around seeking out crime, unlike Gohan). I know the original English dub loved to give Goku uncharacteristically superhero-ish dialogue, but that couldn't have been what AT was talking about. What did he mean exactly?

"Akira Toriyama does not make clear which particular anime series he is referencing. In 1996 Japanese WIRED Magazine interview, Toriyama mentioned how he had, “… always been dissatisfied with the ‘righteous hero’-type portrayal they gave him” in the animation"
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/
The specific quote is:
"Right. There’s how, basically, Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn’t fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys. So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of “poison” that slip in and out of sight among the shadows."
I've taken that to mean he thinks Goku has a bit more of an 'edge' in the manga. There's been a saying over the years that's something like "Goku does what's RIGHT, Gohan does what's GOOD" or something like that, to sort of draw the distinction. Goku will do the RIGHT thing when he comes across what he thinks of as the wrong thing, but he doesn't go out seeking to DO GOOD.

The anime (via filler) always shifted this slightly more towards the "do good" realm, in Toriyama's understanding, perhaps, and in the larger context of the interview, he was relating it to Japan's popularity polls and making a point about how he doesn't worry about such things, but sees its influence working on others, like editors and animation staff.

But what filler portrayed him as a righteous hero though? A lot of filler doesn't even feature Goku, as Toei basically took any chance they could to focus on side characters doing some side quest or whatever. Biggest Goku related filler I can think of are the Snake Way filler and the otherworld tournament, neither involved heroism. And the driving episode, which was just comedy.

[VegettoEX]

I've always read it more as the contemporary movies of the day, rather than necessarily the TV series. We know he'd have some insight into the movies based on character design work at bare minimum, and we also know he watched them at some points along the way. Those seem like a more reasonable option for him to actually have taken the time to see, and furthermore, it's where Takao Koyama takes Goku the furthest -- see things like his monologuing at Tullece in movie 3, bringing the bird back to life in movie 5, etc.

[Muffin Man]

I've always read it more as the contemporary movies of the day, rather than necessarily the TV series. We know he'd have some insight into the movies based on character design work at bare minimum, and we also know he watched them at some points along the way. Those seem like a more reasonable option for him to actually have taken the time to see, and furthermore, it's where Takao Koyama takes Goku the furthest -- see things like his monologuing at Tullece in movie 3, bringing the bird back to life in movie 5, etc.

Ah yeah that would make sense, they did tend to do that in the pre-AT movies.

Although, interestingly, Battle of Gods kinda did the same thing with the whole "I will not let you destroy my world!" bit.

[FinalForumPodcast]

Interestingly Goku was quite heroic in Daima when he came across those demon realm natives who were getting their life force drained by the soldiers.

To be honest I'm not exactly sure what parts of the original anime made Goku more heroic. In the manga, whenever Goku comes across people in trouble he always wants to help them and gets mad at the villains for hurting them, so he's always been heroic when he happens to come across trouble. I don't recall any filler scenes where he was going around being, like, extra heroic (like he's never been a superhero who goes around seeking out crime, unlike Gohan). I know the original English dub loved to give Goku uncharacteristically superhero-ish dialogue, but that couldn't have been what AT was talking about. What did he mean exactly?

"Akira Toriyama does not make clear which particular anime series he is referencing. In 1996 Japanese WIRED Magazine interview, Toriyama mentioned how he had, “… always been dissatisfied with the ‘righteous hero’-type portrayal they gave him” in the animation"
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/
The specific quote is:
"Right. There’s how, basically, Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn’t fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys. So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of “poison” that slip in and out of sight among the shadows."
I've taken that to mean he thinks Goku has a bit more of an 'edge' in the manga. There's been a saying over the years that's something like "Goku does what's RIGHT, Gohan does what's GOOD" or something like that, to sort of draw the distinction. Goku will do the RIGHT thing when he comes across what he thinks of as the wrong thing, but he doesn't go out seeking to DO GOOD.

The anime (via filler) always shifted this slightly more towards the "do good" realm, in Toriyama's understanding, perhaps, and in the larger context of the interview, he was relating it to Japan's popularity polls and making a point about how he doesn't worry about such things, but sees its influence working on others, like editors and animation staff.

But what filler portrayed him as a righteous hero though? A lot of filler doesn't even feature Goku, as Toei basically took any chance they could to focus on side characters doing some side quest or whatever. Biggest Goku related filler I can think of are the Snake Way filler and the otherworld tournament, neither involved heroism. And the driving episode, which was just comedy.

I feel like a lot of the early Dragon Ball filler is Goku coming across a situation and trying to be a hero:
-Demon Land
-Inoshikacho
-Kinkaku and Ginkaku
-Sky Dragon

He seems less excited to fight strong opponents in those episodes than outraged by injustice being done. Even in stuff that's a little more innocuous, like the Muscle Tower filler, there's a whole episode where he helps get the bomb out of 8er, and rescuing Nam's village in the Wandering Lake episode. These things "soften" Goku a bit, perhaps...(I don't pretend to know; I dig a buncha those episodes, so I've never looked at them from the POV of them doing something 'wrong')

Then again:

I've always read it more as the contemporary movies of the day, rather than necessarily the TV series. We know he'd have some insight into the movies based on character design work at bare minimum, and we also know he watched them at some points along the way. Those seem like a more reasonable option for him to actually have taken the time to see, and furthermore, it's where Takao Koyama takes Goku the furthest -- see things like his monologuing at Tullece in movie 3, bringing the bird back to life in movie 5, etc.

this could be right as well.

[Muffin Man]

I feel like a lot of the early Dragon Ball filler is Goku coming across a situation and trying to be a hero:
-Demon Land
-Inoshikacho
-Kinkaku and Ginkaku
-Sky Dragon

He seems less excited to fight strong opponents in those episodes than outraged by injustice being done. Even in stuff that's a little more innocuous, like the Muscle Tower filler, there's a whole episode where he helps get the bomb out of 8er, and rescuing Nam's village in the Wandering Lake episode. These things "soften" Goku a bit, perhaps...(I don't pretend to know; I dig a buncha those episodes, so I've never looked at them from the POV of them doing something 'wrong')

Good examples. There's also the one where he rescues that green fox from some thugs.

Though to be fair in the original Dragon Ball Goku actually helps people quite a lot without fighting as a motive...like the first time he meets Turtle, he insists on going way out of his way to help Turtle get back to the ocean even though Bulma doesn't want to. Same thing when he and Krillin fiirst see Launch, Krillin wants to leave because it's too dangerous but Goku wants to help Launch because rescuing someone in danger is what they are "supposed to do", which shows his simplistic morality, though it evolves over time as later we see him calling the Red Ribbin Army creeps and bad guys as he gets more and more angered by all the terrible things they do, ultimately leading to Goku stopping Commander Black from escaping because he doesn't want a bad guy to get away. And he rescues Upa twice and tries to rescue Bora (but is too slow). Also rescues the mayor of Suno's village and refrains from attacking General White because he's got the mayor at gunpoint and Goku doesn't want the mayor to get killed. Same thing happens with Tien later, Goku puts himself at risk because he won't attack Piccolo while he is threatening a hostage. And in that arc Goku is motivated primarily by a desire to avenge Krillin and later Master Roshi.


But yeah I suppose those filler eps in OG Dragon Ball, while not totally inconsistent with Goku's personality in the manga, do kind of give Goku a "wandering hero" vibe, like Samurai Jack or whatever, which maybe could have been what AT was talking about.

[FinalForumPodcast]

Though to be fair in the original Dragon Ball Goku actually helps people quite a lot without fighting as a motive...like the first time he meets Turtle, he insists on going way out of his way to help Turtle get back to the ocean even though Bulma doesn't want to. Same thing when he and Krillin fiirst see Launch, Krillin wants to leave because it's too dangerous but Goku wants to help Launch because rescuing someone in danger is what they are "supposed to do", which shows his simplistic morality

These two are, of the examples you listed, the most tonally inconsistent with attempting to assert Goku isn't a "superhero"

The others, I'd say are just things that sort of come about in the course of the story to show us that Goku isn't a "means to an end" type of person.

Though I'll say that for helping Launch, Goku has established that Grandpa Gohan told him to always help a girl in trouble...so that just leaves helping out Turtle and...well...let's say that because Toriyama made this all up as he went along, he didn't quite have Goku's character completely nailed down just yet, but yes, that's a good example of it being a little inconsistent even within the things Toriyama himself wrote.

[Muffin Man]

The others, I'd say are just things that sort of come about in the course of the story to show us that Goku isn't a "means to an end" type of person.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.